I already messed up bloom

[Ninjadogma]

some conclusions from the study you shared:

Visual analysis of contour graphs (with a 5 g resolution) show that yield responded to N best in the range of 160–230 mg L–1, and P in the range of 40–80 mg L–1(Figure 2).

The optimal concentrations of nutrient solution N and P was predicted to be approximately 194 mg L–1 N, and 59 mg L–1 P, respectively.

Nutrient supply, especially N, can determine cannabis plant size as N is an essential component of plant chlorophyll and ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate carboxylase-oxygenase (Rubisco). Low levels of N can reduce plant photosynthetic capacity and limit plant growth (Saloner and Bernstein, 2020). For flowering drug-type cannabis in soilless culture, supply of 30 and 80 mg L–1 N restricted whole plant and inflorescence growth, but plants performed optimally with supply of 160–320 mg L–1 N (Saloner and Bernstein, 2021). The optimal N supply (194 mg L–1) found in our study is within their range, despite the two studies using two different growing methods and plants with different genetic backgrounds. For drug-type cannabis during the flowering stage in an organic-based soilless production system, the optimal N supply was slightly higher (212–261 mg L–1; Caplan et al., 2017a) than the optimal level found in the present study.

What point are you trying to make? you've lost me.

 

[crimsonecho]

What point are you trying to make? you've lost me.

what a shame lol be on your way lil dude enjoy your grows and happy farming

 

[Ninjadogma]

what a shame lol be on your way lil dude enjoy your grows and happy farming

No srsly enlighten us, what should we be doing with nitrogen in flower? If there's a hack by increasing levels to a specific amount that we've all missed that produces exponentially better results, I'd like to know about it. I've got expendable plants for trying new things out.

But I'm really fascinated at the prospect that you've figured it out and every cannabis nute manufacturer in the world has it all compleyely wrong by leaving nitrogen out of their flower nutrients or only including trace amounts.

 

[Ninjadogma]

No srsly enlighten us, what should we be doing with nitrogen in flower? If there's a hack by increasing levels to a specific amount that we've all missed that produces exponentially better results, I'd like to know about it. I've got expendable plants for trying new things out.

But I'm really fascinated at the prospect that you've figured it out and every cannabis nute manufacturer in the world has it all compleyely wrong by leaving nitrogen out of their flower nutrients or only including trace amounts.

0-10-10 is devoid of any N which plants use very heavily in bloom especially at the beginning.

 

[crimsonecho]

No srsly enlighten us, what should we be doing with nitrogen in flower? If there's a hack by increasing levels to a specific amount that we've all missed that produces exponentially better results, I'd like to know about it. I've got expendable plants for trying new things out.

But I'm really fascinated at the prospect that you've figured it out and every cannabis nute manufacturer in the world has it all compleyely wrong by leaving nitrogen out of their flower nutrients or only including trace amounts.

ok obviously you didnt read the study you shared :) start by reading the study you shared and how they reached the conclusion (actually confirmed the conclusion of the studies they refer to) that basically a 4/1 to 5/1 nitrogen/phosporus ratio resulted the best yields. its right there in the study i don’t understand what you want to know more lol

most nute companies are snake oil salesmen and they are profit based companies not science hubs if you put your faith in them you are gonna have a bad time. its not flashy to say here is a bottle of 5/1/3 use it all the way from start to finish they need suckers to buy that bud igniting skunk anus terpenator3000 with several more additives.

science is clear on this you shared the study yourself it was never a secret i discovered, most good growers know this shit already. they may bump the P for a week or two maybe but never cut out N completely and go with a 0/10/10 ratios.

 

[Hossgrows]

ok obviously you didnt read the study you shared :) start by reading the study you shared and how they reached the conclusion (actually confirmed the conclusion of the studies they refer to) that basically a 4/1 to 5/1 nitrogen/phosporus ratio resulted the best yields. its right there in the study i don’t understand what you want to know more lol

most nute companies are snake oil salesmen and they are profit based companies not science hubs if you put your faith in them you are gonna have a bad time. its not flashy to say here is a bottle of 5/1/3 use it all the way from start to finish they need suckers to buy that bud igniting skunk anus terpenator3000 with several more additives.

science is clear on this you shared the study yourself it was never a secret i discovered, most good growers know this shit already. they may bump the P for a week or two maybe but never cut out N completely and go with a 0/10/10 ratios.

I grow outdoors, in ground. I use a lot of fish in my garden soil every year, for 26 years now( Whole and carcasses) along with composted horse and cow manure. Pretty much needs little to no amendments, but I did use some FF Tiger bloom that is 2/8/4 for shits n giggles, during bloom. It helped, I could see the difference between the two plants, when I didn't feed the other.

What I learned from it was, they can handle a lot more when in the ground, than in a pot.

 

[crimsonecho]

I grow outdoors, in ground. I use a lot of fish in my garden soil every year, for 26 years now( Whole and carcasses) along with composted horse and cow manure. Pretty much needs little to no amendments, but I did use some FF Tiger bloom that is 2/8/4 for shits n giggles, during bloom. It helped, I could see the difference between the two plants, when I didn't feed the other.

What I learned from it was, they can handle a lot more when in the ground, than in a pot.

you know my claim is not that p is irrelevant and neither of this study’s. they all agree p is essential all through the plants lifecycle. i agree too. but the best results in dry weight is achieved with 4/1 kinda ratio in this study and every other study as well.

sure you can go higher in p plant will tolerate that but is it necessary as so many studies done on cannabis suggests it will not contribute to yield they didnt even detect any difference in cannabinoid content of the dry buds between treatment groups.

to each his own in the end i am not here to dictate anyone how to grow i merely point out the scientific results, but cutting out nitrogen completely or saying its not needed in flowering just sounds ridiculous to me.

study also agrees that up to a point providing p is beneficial (up to 4/1 ratio N/P) and again this conversation is really not about the benefits of p its about the ratios needed and how essential n is for plant growth which you already provide a lot with your fish and manure to some extent.

 

[LoveGrowingIt]

I can see roots all across the surface through the mulch so I probably should have used a bigger pot for bloom.

Surface roots can mean the soil is staying too wet. If it is, let it dry down to an inch or more before watering, and water slowly around the edge of the pot.

Also... A soil pH test would be helpful. When adjusting the pH, target 6.5 for organic growing and 6.3 if using synthetic nutrients. Adjusting the water pH helps, but medium might need more adjustment.

 

[Ninjadogma]

you know my claim is not that p is irrelevant and neither of this study’s. they all agree p is essential all through the plants lifecycle. i agree too. but the best results in dry weight is achieved with 4/1 kinda ratio in this study and every other study as well.

sure you can go higher in p plant will tolerate that but is it necessary as so many studies done on cannabis suggests it will not contribute to yield they didnt even detect any difference in cannabinoid content of the dry buds between treatment groups.

to each his own in the end i am not here to dictate anyone how to grow i merely point out the scientific results, but cutting out nitrogen completely or saying its not needed in flowering just sounds ridiculous to me.

study also agrees that up to a point providing p is beneficial (up to 4/1 ratio N/P) and again this conversation is really not about the benefits of p its about the ratios needed and how essential n is for plant growth which you already provide a lot with your fish and manure to some extent.

Nobody said it's not needed. The demand drops way down. You jumped in and said something about lots of nitrogen and that's when I said whoa let's hit the brakes there. BTW I threw you a white paper about DWC. And 194 ppm is hardly lots of nitrogen, that's middle range of a normal DWC feed. You cut nitrogen completely it won't take long for it to tell you it's starving. You sound like you've got quite some growing experience under your belt. Or at least reading up about it. Its a whole different thing for those just getting their hands dirty growing. Let's steer them right, okay?

 

[crimsonecho]

A 0-10-10 is fine to use, you just need to make sure it's a good ppm of it and not overdone, and if you're using something like Morbloom just know you definitely want to check pH because they use phosphoric acid as a stabilizer.



Actually, plants don't use much N at all in bloom and if you're putting it in it will interfere with flower development and terpene/trichome production. But they do need trace amounts to maintain chlorophyll.

Nobody said it's not needed. The demand drops way down. You jumped in and said something about lots of nitrogen and that's when I said whoa let's hit the brakes there. BTW I threw you a white paper about DWC. And 194 ppm is hardly lots of nitrogen, that's middle range of a normal DWC feed. You cut nitrogen completely it won't take long for it to tell you it's starving. You sound like you've got quite some growing experience under your belt. Or at least reading up about it. Its a whole different thing for those just getting their hands dirty growing. Let's steer them right, okay?

you seem to not read your own posts as well as the studies you share i guess. you are still talking about ppms i am talking about ratios. you can adjust your ppm according to ratios but 0-10-10 is not the ratio suggested to be the best in the study you shared and every other study that has been conducted on the subject the golden ratio is determined to be basically 4-1 to 5-1.

i come from a family of farmers and have been growing crops and gardening for the last 25 years so my hands are pretty dirty which by the way has 0 effect on the results of the many scientific studies conducted on the subject. its ok to admit when you are wrong thats how we grow.

 

[ChairmanFester]

I get my late N from Fox Farm but straw top dress or cover crop cycle makes it bioavailable.

 

[Ninjadogma]

you seem to not read your own posts as well as the studies you share i guess. you are still talking about ppms i am talking about ratios. you can adjust your ppm according to ratios but 0-10-10 is not the ratio suggested to be the best in the study you shared and every other study that has been conducted on the subject the golden ratio is determined to be basically 4-1 to 5-1.

i come from a family of farmers and have been growing crops and gardening for the last 25 years so my hands are pretty dirty which by the way has 0 effect on the results of the many scientific studies conducted on the subject. its ok to admit when you are wrong thats how we grow.

Good for you.

This is becoming off topic and a distraction to the thread. You win, you're right, apparently can never be wrong so I'm out.

 

[Ninjadogma]

I traced back the comments and seems like it got off track after I said a 0-10-10 like Morbloom is fine for cannabis. So I'm going to reiterate that comment, that fish based hot 0-10-10 is a great source of P &K for your flowering cannabis, but its not a complete feeding. You do need other stuff (it only offers P & K). I fill in the gap with either a little bit of Fox Grow Big or just a little 5-1-1 fish fertilizer to put in a good light N ratio feeding, because you don't want to be putting gobs of N in your soil while your plant is flowering. Ratios came up in the discussion. The most widely peer accepted ratio for flowering cannabis is between 1-3-2 and 1-4-3. You'll note both ranges only include 1 part N. If you don't find your ratio all in one bottle, you'll just have to do a little math and mixing. As you can see, Morbloom is just fine for your P&K.

 

[ChairmanFester]

I traced back the comments and (insert heresy)

I would bet good N late in the game comes from the slow top dressing. I feed N all along, and initially a mistake of mine was not using any in flower. I don't myself top dress because I'm near burn levels lol, I lightly dialed back feed even lately. So idk but with the way you do it the top dress or cover crop is the winner. Watch MikedIn's Living Soil thread.
Otherwise you play the "don't burn her" game I play and irritate yourself the whole time lol. It's not that it doesn't work, it's not as Pro.

 

[Ninjadogma]

I would bet good N late in the game comes from the slow top dressing. I feed N all along, and initially a mistake of mine was not using any in flower. I don't myself top dress because I'm near burn levels lol, I lightly dialed back feed even lately. So idk but with the way you do it the top dress or cover crop is the winner. Watch MikedIn's Living Soil thread.
Otherwise you play the "don't burn her" game I play and irritate yourself the whole time lol. It's not that it doesn't work, it's not as Pro.

Yeah I'm fascinated by the whole living feeding game, it's practically an art form. The type of N matters too. Cannabis prefers very high nitrate and low ammonium. I've never used it but potassium nitrate in appropriate amounts should work Well for a source of N in flower, and a bonus you're also picking up that extra potassium.

Top dressing with compost... first drops as ammonium and then converts to nitrate via microbes. Gets you there but with conversion going on, there's lag time so you want to plan your turns ahead for a slow moving ship.

 

[ChairmanFester]

Ammonia compounds are the main thing you remove when you titrate pee for quick nitrogen.

 

[ccoki]

Also looks like you could probably bump your light intensity up a bit as well. I have seen people do more stupid stuff then this, you are missing something rather than just throwing whatever at it. It doesn't really look like you are having a nitrogen deficiency in the new growth, probably used some from of the lower leaves, that's probably why you have a little yellowing in the older leaves, it's not going to hurt your grow much if your past week 4 to not have any nitrogen, check your ewc, usually there is a little bit of nitrogen in most ewc, normal ranges for ewc is 1-0-0 to 5-5-3. You don't normally use ewc for your main source of nitrogen. Is that all the nutrients you have atm?

I know this is kinda late, but I just had to let you know this was pretty much the answer .

I used a par meter and every single tent was vastly underpowered with light. I'm talking these were trying to bloom in 200-300ppfd. It was more like light starvation.

Anywho they're currently stacking...sampled them...taste amazing. Thank you!!