If you have chemistry questions....

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squiggly

squiggly

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You can get a used one in the 5-6K range. A decent one around 10K. However, there are software licensing fees, and other considerations such as upkeep, calibration, other materials needed (salt plates, dessicator to hold them in, proper solvents).

With chemistry equipment operation tends to be the easy part, once calibrated.

The hard part is upkeep, calibration, and reading/determining the result with understanding.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Read the equation again:

Reactants Products
CaCO3+ 2H+ -> Ca+2 + H2O +CO2

You are ending up with Ca+2, which is what you are after (this is the plant-available form of calcium).
<facepalm> Did I mention it's been a loong time since I've worked an equation? What do you do with someone who forgets the order/sequence? Either way, again, thank you and this chemistry/chemical confirmation is exactly what *I* need to continue going on my way. One thing that threw me off was seeing the H2O in there, I didn't realize I could end up breaking the shells down into water. The CO2 production was quite evident, though.
This reaction does not ultimately follow an exact equilibrium, because the products side is thermodynamically favored. However, if there is too much Ca+2 present in solution the reaction can stop. Explaining this would require a healthy lesson on thermodynamics--and several diagrams.

Sadly I've got some NMRs to look through and annotate for my professor so I can't do that at the moment :)
No worries, I mostly needed to be certain that I'm not adding more carbonates to the soils. Like I said, I have enough carbonates already.
I think this should suffice, you are doing the proper thing to get what you want--try using more acid initially to fully dissolve the eggshells. Failing that, strain out the remaining particulate matter and get to feeding.

As for your water, I'm betting you've got CaCO3 and MgCO3 in there.
Definitely, along with some form of Fe, based on how it stains the toilets and other plumbing fixtures.
 
MrSmilehappy

MrSmilehappy

39
8
Okay ill try to stay in detail. I'm dealing with a recent nutrient lockout in my current veg cycle. I've flush my plants like twice and they're slowly getting their color back but are still wilted. So this time round with the watering cycle I decided to use a limited dose of hygrozyme with my aerated water to a sample size of the overall crop. My thoughts going in was that the enzymes in the hygrozyme would breakdown anything that was left and make it readily available to the plant to use. Its still a day in the process, and with the sample the wilting has reduced a lot however it seems the color in the leaves has lighten but the stems and things are slowly coming out of the defiencies. Could explain to me what's fully going on if you have enough information.
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
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What nutrients can lock each other out?

I have seen a "cloud" when mixing nutes. Somewhere here, I read that is elements binding together and locking up.

Silica and magnesium will lock each other out if not diluted properly, correct?
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
What nutrients can lock each other out?

I have seen a "cloud" when mixing nutes. Somewhere here, I read that is elements binding together and locking up.

Silica and magnesium will lock each other out if not diluted properly, correct?

If you form a "cloud" during addition, you are definitely precipitating something out. This is something that is way to complicated to address in a forum post.

Solubility is a good half semester of gen chem, and that's what we're discussing here.

The question could be rephrased, which ions--when mixed--produce insoluble salts. The answer is a shitfuck ton.

In addition to that, there are pH concerns.

You are correct to say that dilution plays a role. Let's say we have something which is super insoluble, like a Lead salt. Even with its high insolubility it is still slightly soluble in water, which is to say that adding enough water will cause all of a given sample to go into solution. This runs as an equilibrium, so if we add more water we get more solvation--if we boil some water out will will get our salt back.

I wish I could give you a better answer on this, but your best bet is probably to use different nutrients if you're getting precipitation--I'd recommend some experiments to determine which of your nutrients are reacting with one another.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I may be able to do a bit better than that ^^^^ at a later time. Right now I'm murdering my face with mathematical symbols studying for an exam. There's a chart or two I can get for you that can give you a bit of a guide on this if I dig enough.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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My husband holds a minor in mathematics. I address every problem to him!

I took a quick look at my Mulders Mineral Interaction chart, and it does NOT have Si.
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
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What nutrients can lock each other out?

I have seen a "cloud" when mixing nutes. Somewhere here, I read that is elements binding together and locking up.

Silica and magnesium will lock each other out if not diluted properly, correct?

Magnesium is mag sulfate. not just mag alone.

Calcium nitrate combined with sulphates and phosphates lock out.

Silica changes the ph above 10 and then you get the lockout. I found by adding the silicon to the res and then ph'ing within a safe range for plants prevents the lockout.

If I go and add the silicon without the ph adjustment I will get lockout and a cloudy solution.

That is what have noticed from my experience with silica and the very little experience I have with mixing salts.

1. silica, then citric acid for ph down.
2. phosphates
3. mag sulfate
4 calcium/micros

Look forward to seeing what others have to share on that subject. I found knowing the order to mix was very helpful to me when getting started.

If you feel cautious about mixing salts. Give the growmore or jacks, along with calcium nitrate and mag sulfate a shot. Easy to use and get your feet wet.





 
dizzlekush

dizzlekush

62
18
Is it likely that the product "Hedione", a combination of 4 sterioisomers of methyl dihydrojasmonate with one being very dominant, has similar phytoactivity as the different forms of methyl dihydrojasmonate used in these 2 studies?

1st study:
EFFECTS OF OCTADECANOID METABOLITES AND INHIBITORS ON INDUCED NICOTINE ACCUMULATION IN Nicotiana sylvestris
IAN T. BALDWIN, ERIC A. SCHMELZ, and ZONG-PING ZHANG

"The dhMJ contained 98.14% 1R,2R dhMJ and 1.86% 1R,2S dhMJ and did not contain detectable quantities of MJ."

2nd study:
STRUCTURAL REQUIREMENTS OF JASMONATES AND MIMICS FOR NICOTINE INDUCTION IN Nicotiana sylvestris
ZONG-PING ZHANG, THOMAS KRUMM, and IAN T. BALDWIN

used both normal Methyl Dihydrojasmonate
and 1,3-dioxolane methyl dihydrojasmonate (turned out to be significantly less phytoactive)

Can you think of any other jasmonates that have significant phytoactivity that can be purchased at a similar price to Hedione (<$100/kg)

big fan of yours squiggly, although i strongly disagree with your belief that ketone production or the state of ketosis is unhealthy. Too many studies on ketogenic diets for me to agree with you.
 
dizzlekush

dizzlekush

62
18
What nutrients can lock each other out?

I have seen a "cloud" when mixing nutes. Somewhere here, I read that is elements binding together and locking up.

Silica and magnesium will lock each other out if not diluted properly, correct?

To answer your Q:

if you're using silica, and working at typical dilution rates, its more than likely that the Si and your pH is whats causing the precipitation (cloudy appearance.)

silicate salts are highly alkaline. when added to solution they raise the solutions pH. As pH raises to greater than 8 (>8), the form that silica takes in water changes from non reactive, non-ionic monosilicic acid, to reactive, ionic polysilicic acids that react with other minerals (unsure of which ones) and precipitate out of solution, giving the cloudy appearance.

Basically at high pH (>8) silica changes forms to a form that can react with other minerals and precipitate out of solution. The best way to prevent this is to add your silicate salt first out of all nutrients, and then lower the pH (add acid) to levels that will insure that pH wont rise to >8 when adding your other nutrients.
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
To answer your Q:

if you're using silica, and working at typical dilution rates, its more than likely that the Si and your pH is whats causing the precipitation (cloudy appearance.)

silicate salts are highly alkaline. when added to solution they raise the solutions pH. As pH raises to greater than 8 (>8), the form that silica takes in water changes from non reactive, non-ionic monosilicic acid, to reactive, ionic polysilicic acids that react with other minerals (unsure of which ones) and precipitate out of solution, giving the cloudy appearance.

Basically at high pH (>8) silica changes forms to a form that can react with other minerals and precipitate out of solution. The best way to prevent this is to add your silicate salt first out of all nutrients, and then lower the pH (add acid) to levels that will insure that pH wont rise to >8 when adding your other nutrients.

Thanks for taking time to explain this! It makes perfect sense to me. I was told a long time ago to add silica lastly. That has been the problem. I have been diluting the silica into 5 gallons of water and adding it slowly and lastly, which is a pain.

-peace
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
Magnesium is mag sulfate. not just mag alone.

Calcium nitrate combined with sulphates and phosphates lock out.

Silica changes the ph above 10 and then you get the lockout. I found by adding the silicon to the res and then ph'ing within a safe range for plants prevents the lockout.

If I go and add the silicon without the ph adjustment I will get lockout and a cloudy solution.

That is what have noticed from my experience with silica and the very little experience I have with mixing salts.

1. silica, then citric acid for ph down.
2. phosphates
3. mag sulfate
4 calcium/micros

Look forward to seeing what others have to share on that subject. I found knowing the order to mix was very helpful to me when getting started.

If you feel cautious about mixing salts. Give the growmore or jacks, along with calcium nitrate and mag sulfate a shot. Easy to use and get your feet wet.


Thanks dude.
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
I may be able to do a bit better than that ^^^^ at a later time. Right now I'm murdering my face with mathematical symbols studying for an exam. There's a chart or two I can get for you that can give you a bit of a guide on this if I dig enough.

no worries
 
K

kushtrees

591
63
Hey squiggly I dnt get the chance to check the farm as often as I used to but it is great to see a thread like this. Thank you

I have a question regarding nute brands and please excuse me if I kind of stumble through asking this

So from my understanding from looking at many many different nutrient bottles and ingredients and ratios is that they are all made from relatively the same salts, calcium nitrate, MKP, mag sulfate, K nitrate, K sulfate, MAP, K silicate, etc and then many forms of micro elements. While they may have different amounts to get different ratios, do they not all dissolve to the same elements: N, P, K, Ca etc etc.

Granted not all salts are created equal and I'm sure thy are not all 100% pure, I think it's safe to say that when it comes to most commercial nute company's they all probably use relatively the same purities and I dn think there is anyway to determine if one company uses a more pure salt than another.

So finally to my question, is all the debate about which is the best nutrient really just about strain and ratio. Which strain fits which nutrient. IMO most nute company's, GH, Botanicare, Heavy16, canna, HG, even AN, base nutrients are probably all created very similar. And while their supplements, labeling practices, *AN cough* and customer service may be different because they are using all similar ingredients the only thing u are choosing between is a ratio.

I just can't see why, from a chemical stand point, GH is better then HG or what ever besides that their ratio fits your strain better. Again this is not in regards to supplements as all the extra chemicals and unlabled things that go into them make them essentially impossible to compare, just strictly base nutes. I apologize if that was hard to understand I'm on my phone and its quite hard to edit this and review it
 
dizzlekush

dizzlekush

62
18
Im gonna go ahead and answer some of the Q's here that dont require an actual chemist to answer. i know the reason why some of you are asking squiggly is because you trust him to give out correct info, since im new here you might not trust my answers as much but maybe squiggly can give them the approval or denial so we can speed things along here.

While they may have different amounts to get different ratios, do they not all dissolve to the same elements: N, P, K, Ca etc etc.
you are correct.

Granted not all salts are created equal and I'm sure thy are not all 100% pure, I think it's safe to say that when it comes to most commercial nute company's they all probably use relatively the same purities and I dn think there is anyway to determine if one company uses a more pure salt than another.
You can look at fertilizer databases at products levels of contaminants that were found in the products to give you a decent clue. but most companies just use basic fert grade salts.
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx

For instance i know that H&G uses Yara to source their salts (can be seen at 0:20 in this video of their manufacturing process)

Yara is NOT a particularly 'pure' or 'quality' source of salts. nothing wrong with them, basic fertilizer grade salts, no food or reagent grade though so they could be giving us purer for the huge price markup.

So finally to my question, is all the debate about which is the best nutrient really just about strain and ratio. Which strain fits which nutrient. IMO most nute company's, GH, Botanicare, Heavy16, canna, HG, even AN, base nutrients are probably all created very similar. And while their supplements, labeling practices, *AN cough* and customer service may be different because they are using all similar ingredients the only thing u are choosing between is a ratio.

I just can't see why, from a chemical stand point, GH is better then HG or what ever besides that their ratio fits your strain better. Again this is not in regards to supplements as all the extra chemicals and unlabled things that go into them make them essentially impossible to compare, just strictly base nutes. I apologize if that was hard to understand I'm on my phone and its quite hard to edit this and review it

well you never asked a question (lol), but i think i see where you're going here...

As long as were not talking about supplements and unlabeled chemicals as you put them, the differences between nutrient companies mainly fall upon the sources of N that they use (NH2, NO3, or NH4) and the micronutrient package and chelation of said micronutrient package.

For instance Fe (iron) can be unchelated, or it can be chelated with EDTA, DPTA, EDDHA, humic acid, fulvic acid, glycine, citric acid ect. The same is true for Cu, Zn and Mn (minus DPTA and EDDHA), so some products have superior chelation which can give you more flexibility with your mediums pH without seeing 'nute lockout'.

Also some micronutrients are heavily under appreciated in formulations (Zn and B particularly), many products have a Fe:Zn ratio of 10 or more!

about N sources. Cannabis likes the majority of its N to be in the source of NO3 (except possibly for mature cannabis in elevated CO2 but thats for a different discussion), but some companies (AN *cough*) like to use cheaper N sources that use lots of NH2 (form of urea) instead that can often lead to slowed growth, so that is another thing to take into accnut that isnt in the basic NPK ratio.

But in the end its just all about providing available, adequate amounts of each of the 16-18 nutrients essential for growth, it can be achieved with the cheapest dry salts (JACKS or PETERS) or the most expensive products out there (AN, H&G etc.). As you put it, they all dissolve into the same elements, the plant doesn't care how much you pay for them.

hope that answers that Q you never asked.
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
Is it likely that the product "Hedione", a combination of 4 sterioisomers of methyl dihydrojasmonate with one being very dominant, has similar phytoactivity as the different forms of methyl dihydrojasmonate used in these 2 studies?

1st study:
EFFECTS OF OCTADECANOID METABOLITES AND INHIBITORS ON INDUCED NICOTINE ACCUMULATION IN Nicotiana sylvestris
IAN T. BALDWIN, ERIC A. SCHMELZ, and ZONG-PING ZHANG

"The dhMJ contained 98.14% 1R,2R dhMJ and 1.86% 1R,2S dhMJ and did not contain detectable quantities of MJ."

2nd study:
STRUCTURAL REQUIREMENTS OF JASMONATES AND MIMICS FOR NICOTINE INDUCTION IN Nicotiana sylvestris
ZONG-PING ZHANG, THOMAS KRUMM, and IAN T. BALDWIN

used both normal Methyl Dihydrojasmonate
and 1,3-dioxolane methyl dihydrojasmonate (turned out to be significantly less phytoactive)

Can you think of any other jasmonates that have significant phytoactivity that can be purchased at a similar price to Hedione (<$100/kg)

big fan of yours squiggly, although i strongly disagree with your belief that ketone production or the state of ketosis is unhealthy. Too many studies on ketogenic diets for me to agree with you.


This is so far over my head....but I cant help it....

Whatchoo talkin about Willis?
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
Hay Squiggly, When Purging BHO , using a double boil method, is it safe to assume that all of the BHO is and has been removed. Is it really a good idea to do a second double boil for purging. I have never made BHO as of yet, I made my first batch of iso which came out extremely well, but it seems my customer base prefers BHO, and I would like to give them the best possible product.

Also this vacuum purging stuff is it really necessary, and if we could chat about that and what is needed to make the apparatus and how it works I would love to pick your brain bro.



yes....use a vac set up. You can make one for 40 bucks or so.....cheap insurance to make sure you aren't smoking petroleum by products.
 
dizzlekush

dizzlekush

62
18
Hay Squiggly, When Purging BHO , using a double boil method, is it safe to assume that all of the BHO is and has been removed. Is it really a good idea to do a second double boil for purging. I have never made BHO as of yet, I made my first batch of iso which came out extremely well, but it seems my customer base prefers BHO, and I would like to give them the best possible product.

Also this vacuum purging stuff is it really necessary, and if we could chat about that and what is needed to make the apparatus and how it works I would love to pick your brain bro.
im guessing the boil method is where you heat the BHO with boiling water to control the tempt @ 100C?

I cant say how long it needs to be heated @ 100C to remove all the butane (cant imagine it takes much time) but you wont want to do this for more that 75-90 mins max, after that your THC will start degrading. (see graph)

Vacuum purging and boiling off will do the same thing r.e. purging the butane, but they will effect your product and cannabinoids differently. vacuum purging wont decarboxylate your THC (wont get high if you eat it), while cooking it will, but cooking it also puts you at risk of degrading your THC, while you can vacuum it all you want without THC degradation.

Unless there are contaminants in BHO that i am unaware of (enter squiggly) either method done properly will purge your product.
 
View attachment THC-A Decarboxylation graph.pdf
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
I cant say how long it needs to be heated @ 100C to remove all the butane (cant imagine it takes much time) .


It depends on the amount of oil and the container size. It also depends on the strain. Some produce more viscious oil.

If its 4 cases of butane and 250 grams of oil in a 8x8 pyrex dish....its never gonna boil off at 100 degrees. The oil is too thick for the butane to get out without vigorous stirring or a vac.

A magnetic stirring hotplate with a vac set up would be ideal.


If you are talking about 1 can of butane and a very thin layer of oil....a heat bath will work w/o vac. I always strongly suggest making a vac set-up, though. Because NOBODY does just one can once they get going....lol...

The club "test" is to put a dab on the end of a nail (whatev) and see if it crackles and pops. Not exact, but it lets you know if you are grossly unpurged.
 
Mississip Hip

Mississip Hip

976
143
Have you tried the concentrate forum?

All the info you need is laid out nicely.
 
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