If you have chemistry questions....

[dizzlekush]

It depends on the amount of oil and the container size. It also depends on the strain. Some produce more viscious oil.

If its 4 cases of butane and 250 grams of oil in a 8x8 pyrex dish....its never gonna boil off at 100 degrees. The oil is too thick for the butane to get out without vigorous stirring or a vac

I never realized the oil could be that thick at high temperatures as to prevent the butane from being purged. Shows my lack of experience. I've always winterised my BHO, which seems to be a fairly uncommon practice amongst erlers, but the ethanol bath allows for the butane to be purged very easily with heat. Never realized that winterising was aiding the purge that much though.

 

[Mississip Hip]

I saw leadsled talking about winterizing....I need to head over to the concentrate forum myself...

If it involves loosening the oil with a solvent then I am fairly certain a heat bath would work better than without. I have no experience with using ethanol (everclear?).... I need to look this up.:cool:

sorry for the jack, Squiggly.

 

[kushtrees]

So finally to my question, is all the debate about which is the best nutrient really just about strain and ratio.

This is a question, I give u the fact that it doesn't have a ? But u know typing on a phone isn't the easiest thing. No need for any attitude for grammatical errors. Thank you for answering the question it does clear things up some. I find that most nute companies use more or less the same chelators and I've def seen the urea in AN which I have never understood except for that its cheaper.

 

[ttystikk]

This is a question, I give u the fact that it doesn't have a ? But u know typing on a phone isn't the easiest thing. No need for any attitude for grammatical errors. Thank you for answering the question it does clear things up some. I find that most nute companies use more or less the same chelators and I've def seen the urea in AN which I have never understood except for that its cheaper.

Without a ?, that statement wasn't obviously a question to me, either- and having read his response, he went to some pains to answer what he thought- and it seemed like you intended- to be your question, without attitude. A little sensitive about this? Don't be- and please direct your complaints about how pathetic touchsensitive phone keypads to the manufacturers and the cellphone companies who support them. I do, in the hope that bitching at the right people might eventually produce results!

 

[squiggly]

Hey squiggly I dnt get the chance to check the farm as often as I used to but it is great to see a thread like this. Thank you

No prob

I have a question regarding nute brands and please excuse me if I kind of stumble through asking this

So from my understanding from looking at many many different nutrient bottles and ingredients and ratios is that they are all made from relatively the same salts, calcium nitrate, MKP, mag sulfate, K nitrate, K sulfate, MAP, K silicate, etc and then many forms of micro elements. While they may have different amounts to get different ratios, do they not all dissolve to the same elements: N, P, K, Ca etc etc.

Granted not all salts are created equal and I'm sure thy are not all 100% pure, I think it's safe to say that when it comes to most commercial nute company's they all probably use relatively the same purities and I dn think there is anyway to determine if one company uses a more pure salt than another.

That's definitely true, all of it.

So finally to my question, is all the debate about which is the best nutrient really just about strain and ratio. Which strain fits which nutrient. IMO most nute company's, GH, Botanicare, Heavy16, canna, HG, even AN, base nutrients are probably all created very similar. And while their supplements, labeling practices, *AN cough* and customer service may be different because they are using all similar ingredients the only thing u are choosing between is a ratio.

Yes and no. If we talking chemical salts then yes they're pretty much all equal--with a few caveats (additives or subtractions relative to one another). And it's also true that you're pretty much looking at a strain by strain basis in terms of "dialing in" a strain. I know they all look the same, give or take a little, but each strain is very much an individual, with its own specific "maximum" nutrition preferences.

That just how genetics works--and it's going to depend on the things surroundings as well what it wants. What your ambient air pressure, temperature, etc.

Now, when it comes to organic nutrients--many of these are perishable and can be contaminated--so it matters a bit more when you are sourcing your material. In general, though, a salt is a salt--and you're right to say that most companies will use a similar purity salt as the next (they may even source them from the same place), however there's always the possibility some asshole company is using 86% salts and shit.

 

[squiggly]

Hay Squiggly, When Purging BHO , using a double boil method, is it safe to assume that all of the BHO is and has been removed.

No.

Is it really a good idea to do a second double boil for purging.

Yes.

I have never made BHO as of yet, I made my first batch of iso which came out extremely well, but it seems my customer base prefers BHO, and I would like to give them the best possible product.

Also this vacuum purging stuff is it really necessary, and if we could chat about that and what is needed to make the apparatus and how it works I would love to pick your brain bro.

If you are providing this to customers invest in a vacuum chamber. This is the only way to be certain the butane has been fully purged (even with this method if not done using an exceptional process will leave trace amounts).

That said, butane is fairly innocuous--if you have removed the butane taste, it's essentially safe to smoke. It combusts to CO2 and H2o like every other hydrocarbon in existence (potentially a very small generation of CO, but very unlikely).

 

[dizzlekush]

damn my Q got skipped.

 

[squiggly]

damn my Q got skipped.

Your question requires me to read stuff--I'll answer it but you'll have to give me some time :)

Edit: More than a day--it's the weekend and I've just come off a very tiring week for my brain.

 

[ttystikk]

If you are providing this to customers invest in a vacuum chamber. This is the only way to be certain the butane has been fully purged (even with this method if not done using an exceptional process will leave trace amounts).

What do you mean by 'exceptional process'?

That said, butane is fairly innocuous--if you have removed the butane taste, it's essentially safe to smoke. It combusts to CO2 and H2o like every other hydrocarbon in existence (potentially a very small generation of CO, but very unlikely).

Waaaiiit a minute. While it's true that hydrocarbons all EVENTUALLY break down to CO2 and H2O, there are plenty of stops along the way to complete combustion, very few of which are good for you. It's these byproducts of incomplete combustion that taste objectionably- and can often have serious health consequences when ingested or inhaled.

 

[squiggly]

What do you mean by 'exceptional process'?



Waaaiiit a minute. While it's true that hydrocarbons all EVENTUALLY break down to CO2 and H2O, there are plenty of stops along the way to complete combustion, very few of which are good for you. It's these byproducts of incomplete combustion that taste objectionably- and can often have serious health consequences when ingested or inhaled.

Hence why I said if you get rid of the taste :)

If there are only trace amounts around--they are more than likely going to combust completely. It's an equilibrium thing.

Far as exceptional process in this case that amounts to evaporating from an incredibly thin film. The thicker you get the less you'll ultimately get out and the more times you'll have to do it to maximize removal.

 

[ttystikk]

Hence why I said if you get rid of the taste :)

If there are only trace amounts around--they are more than likely going to combust completely. It's an equilibrium thing.

Far as exceptional process in this case that amounts to evaporating from an incredibly thin film. The thicker you get the less you'll ultimately get out and the more times you'll have to do it to maximize removal.

...hence, why people so often mix and whip the material while they heat or purge it to accelerate this process. Thanks again, brother-

 

[dizzlekush]

squiggly you getting close to being able to tackle my Q?

 

[squiggly]

squiggly you getting close to being able to tackle my Q?

I'm sorry dude, but no--not at the moment.

I bit off a bit more than I could chew this semester in terms of classes. I've taken some things simultaneously that I probably should not have. I'm only taking three classes but they are all fucking killer and have adjoined labs. In addition to that I'm dead smack in the middle of a research project I've been working on for about a year and a half that I'm finally making some appreciable headway on.

As it were--all of my reading time is thoroughly booked at least through most of this weekend. I have two tests tomorrow and a third Monday--I may find some time to dig through some material Sat-Sun this weekend, but at this point I can't make any solid commitment to that.

I don't even have time to fuck my girlfriend or take a shit is the short answer.

 

[Mississip Hip]

I cant hep with the booboo situation....

but the girlfriend......if you just NEED a stand in.....:D

jk,jk.jk......jk

my mom teaches calculus also. I feel for ya on the classes. She loved school enough to make me hate it.....lol....

good luck bro....We need educated people in the world to offset the folks like me.

 

[squiggly]

squiggly you getting close to being able to tackle my Q?

Going to try to dig in to this for you sometime early next week.

 

[squiggly]

Just thought I'd post something here instead of starting a new thread about something which struck me recently.

pH is temperature dependent, and that means that when you're trying to have fine control over the kinetic properties of a solution (either your reservoir water--or what it is you're watering in)--which is essentially the point of adjusting pH--it matters BIG TIME what the temperature is of your water.

This is one of the reasons that soil growing is likely more forgiving in terms of feeding. As weird as it will sound the difference is that in soil the medium is the solvent, and the water and nutrients are solutes.

In hydro, that's reversed (and the medium, if any, tends to be insoluble).

I'm frankly shocked that this doesn't come up in hydro discussions more, though. This MATTERS a lot in terms of the kinetics of any reaction taking place. pH is talking about how many free H+ ions are in solution (technically it measures the Hydronium ion which is H30+).

The tendency of this ion to form and stabilize depends HEAVILY on temperature. In fact, as a chemist I look at "temperature" as a description of the translational, rotational, and vibrational movements of the molecules which I am measuring (and this includes solids, which are very much moving).

In the end, by making a solution and feeding it to the plants--we are attempting to control chemical kinetics. Temperature is at the very base of such considerations, it is a state function (and these are usually important :P ).

If you want to know whats important in a solution of just about anything (solids, gases, liquids--all three of which we're dealing with in hydro) you look at the gibbs free energy equation which is:

(delta)G = (delta)H - T(delta)S [for an isotherm]

Or, for the calculus inclined:

dG= dH - d(TS)

From this quantity we can find literally everything. Every function in this function is a state function (which means that the total change in the function between two points is the same irrespective of the path--a fancy way of saying that if you cool something from 20F to 0F it doesn't matter how you cool it, the thing is the same temp).

If we do a bunch of fancy integration we can find the work, the heat evolved, the enthalpy change (H), the entropy change (S), and perhaps most importantly for this discussion the temperature at which a reaction becomes spontaneous--and the degree to which it is favored.
Now, the systems we're looking at are way too complex to do this type of analysis on them (and we don't have the proper instrumentation). However, that doesn't mean that it isn't subject to the same rules--and that we shouldn't be looking at them with the same set of eyes.

This ultimately goes back to another of my gripes (and hopes) about the MJ community at large--we need to be collecting data better.

Checking TDS and pH is fine and good, and its at least half the battle to be sure--but without temp to go along with it, it is incredibly far from the full story.

Realistically pressure (both air and water) needs to be taken as well--and it would be helpful to know what the levels of dissolved oxygen are as well in the res, as this changes kinetics significantly as well.


It's definitely too hard of a thing to nail down--but I think failing to take rigorous temp/ph/TDS data and play around with the values in hydro is a mistake, and that opportunities will be missed as a result.

 

[ttystikk]

^^ Gospel, my brothers, read and be enlightened!!

I strongly agree with the above, and I can provide a concrete example:

Relative humidity directly and drastically affects the plant's preference of EC/TDS. the higher the RH in the growing space, the stronger the nutrient mix should be in order to be adequately available to the plant's tissues after the plants has transported them up from its roots.

Why, you may ask? Because- and here's where Squiggly's 'favored reactions' theme takes the stage for a moment- as humidity rises, the plant can spend less of its limited energy lifting water and more on growing larger. Less water being transported means less nutrient delivered to the growing tips unless EC is increased. As the RH reaches the ideal VPD (vapor pressure differential) range, the plant is able to open its stomata fully and take up more CO2 and grow more rapidly- as fast as possible, in fact, to the limits of that garden's conditions- thus requiring even more nutrients.

 

[dizzlekush]

^^ Gospel, my brothers, read and be enlightened!!

I strongly agree with the above, and I can provide a concrete example:

Relative humidity directly and drastically affects the plant's preference of EC/TDS. the higher the RH in the growing space, the stronger the nutrient mix should be in order to be adequately available to the plant's tissues after the plants has transported them up from its roots.

Why, you may ask? Because- and here's where Squiggly's 'favored reactions' theme takes the stage for a moment- as humidity rises, the plant can spend less of its limited energy lifting water and more on growing larger. Less water being transported means less nutrient delivered to the growing tips unless EC is increased. As the RH reaches the ideal VPD (vapor pressure differential) range, the plant is able to open its stomata fully and take up more CO2 and grow more rapidly- as fast as possible, in fact, to the limits of that garden's conditions- thus requiring even more nutrients.

As i understand it, what you say is only actually relevant for Calcium and Boron which are passively taken up by root tips with water, all other nutrients are actively removed from the rhizosphere independent of the rate of water absorption/transpiration.

Also VPD in horticulture refers to Vapour Pressure Deficit specifically, not differential. Essentially both mean the same thing, just ones technically correct and the others not.

Higher EC needs will be necessary as PPFD (up to ~1500ppfd), CO2 levels (up to ~1200ppm) and/or temperature increases (up to ~89F), less so as VPD optimizes(~0.8-1.2 kPa).

 

[nope notme]

Hi

I have a question, ive been reading the Jacks Back thread of capitulators and see that u use it as well (I think) I’m going to give jacks a try, I want to make a 2 part AB stock solution for 4 res changes of 20 gal each instead of adding salts direct to the tank. Kinda like the hogland style of individual nute bottles. So Im making a stock for 80 gal. Just the hydro and the calcium nitrate is no problem doing an A B stock, besides it getting old but im not making it that concentrated, which leads to another question of how long you think a stock of jacks could last in a cool dark place?.

Lol anyway back to the first question, can I mix the calcium chloride and mgso4 to the calcium nitrate side (A ) without any reactions?. and can I add the MOST and MKP in with the B side hydro? If not is there a way I can make a 3 part? or do I have to keep doing it hoagland style and mixing in individual bottles? That would still save me time because the hydro would be only one bottle. so that would be like a 5 part. Thanks for your time

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Just thought I'd post something here instead of starting a new thread about something which struck me recently.

pH is temperature dependent, and that means that when you're trying to have fine control over the kinetic properties of a solution (either your reservoir water--or what it is you're watering in)--which is essentially the point of adjusting pH--it matters BIG TIME what the temperature is of your water.

First I must say Squiggly I thought you were a smart guy before, but man hats off to you, brother wherever you land after school, you will be doing great, thanks for your input and challenging my thinking as well.

I dont think that is a hard sell just like differing ph effects on differing nutrients. The question is like with PH the range in which those temp fluctuations have relatively little impact, Fatman's argument of Rez temps come to mind relating to DO, there are many people such as myself who are happy with their results and do things in opposition to the NORM. There is so much not in just chemistry but relating to plant physics (like remove the root cap that controls gravity and roots dont know up from down) and new discoveries in plant biology with new funny names, that is just getting discovered that may have contradictory roles to play as well that originate a lot of times from a slice of science or ganja gurus methodology as opposed to the holistic science of chemistry, biology and plant physics, such as research on how plants react to touch, other plants, and gravity.