Breeding for whorls

Wow that AW4 looks amazing! :wideyed:

Sativied said:

P-F1 to bridge the period between current run

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Yes ! I recall when you ran them and you found some Gems in there I am going out on a limb that your looking to find another Male?

Sativied said:

AW x P-F3 seeds in a P-F3. Getting excited about these.

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PF3.5 ?
Looking Phat

Sativied said:

typical P-F3 line 19

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One of your best to Date Sat-man
and I am glad to see the Tubes in Motion Cant wait to see the ART your HydroKilla is getting ready to throw Down.
Peace and Positive AW PF4 Vibes to come
FlyJ

Topping worked out nicely too on the AW plants, one of the 4 colas from AW4.


The pale IH, put it in 1L hempy bottle in the flower closet. Did green up slightly.


@FlyinJStable:
The P-F1 is mostly to fill the jars and I don't want to use up more P-F3 line 19 seeds for that. Also gives me a chance to compare and see what I bred out (frosty leaves, shorter structure and narrow leaflets mostly) and maybe find a P whorler. So mainly just looking for 5-6 females. Will make some new F2 seeds too probably from more sativa dom looking P. They will be a backup in case I can't fix P-F3-19 with AW or itself.

P-F3.5... Yeah I like that, and that does indicate an option, that or, just a new F1. If it fixes P by making it shorter (nodes), less hairy, and frostier on the leaves, yet has a shorter flower time, it will be a new F1. Then I will probably redo it (it's just a test cross), by running more P-F3 and more from the AWF2 (seeds currently in the AW4) and select the two best parents I can find. If it does not fix P in the first gen, in the f1, I'm probably still going to try and breed some AW traits into P and still call it P, or P-F3.5 :) After that I could backcross the P-F3 x AW to the P-F3 again for example, and call it P-F3.75.

I'm probably also going to try and stabilize and improve the AW. Despite the rough start I do like the genetic background a lot and if necessary I can cross it with amnesia/ssh or afghani again to steer it in the direction I want it. That 's assuming the seedlings in the F2 don't turn out as runts...

That should give me two strains to try and cross the whorling in from the CH. I do hope to finish the whorling project as well as P over the next couple of years, i.e. not just produce whorlers but a whorling strain that produces great bud too.

Outstanding Sat....
as always ........

Amnesia White is starting to live up to its name:

It's clearly slower than the other AWs, about a week it seems. I hope the seeds will contain a few just a frosty but faster.

The P-F3 is getting closer to finishing. Contrary to the AW not a whole lot of frost on the leaves, though after trimming it's white as well.


Not in the best shape but frankly I'm happy I got this far considering the bad luck and poor soil mix'n nutes this round.
Seeds (p x aw) need about 7-10 more days so should be ready around harvest time.

P-F1 - take 2 :)

I created a small NFT setup for seedlings. Takes less space than running both my dwc preveg boxes and NFT is much easier to keep healthy than DWC. For me anyway. In the DWC boxes I need to be careful keeping the temps low, frequently refresh. This thing is pretty much on autopilot. Roots smell like licorice.



6 in NFT initially, 4 in DWC, 2 on perlite. NFT stems are noticeable thicker, plants are healthier, larger... now all in NFT, but difference still noticeable. The vague one in the front of the pic above was on perlite. The left one in the next was in DWC, the other on NFT:


Running 350-400ppm. That dark green is typical for P. So is the already exceptional intense pine smell from the leaves.


And a little pretaster of a P-F3. Specifically the one I nearly killed with canna bioflores and didn't get to swell up as nicely.


This is the one from which I'm going to grow out the P-F3 x AW seeds first. Already got 10 or so which I'm going to try and pop asap.






Besides that it swelled up nicely, it's not as hairy as some as the other P-F3. Waiting for a few more seeds to mature and then it'll go down.

P-F3 is fading nicely man. But that amnesia white is blindingly resinous, damn! Btw you take the best macro pics. Been away for a while but just caught up on a bunch here. Really liked your post a while back about breeding with recessive traits and testing males, etc. It can be very confusing and because of that a lot of current breeders ignore stuff like that. Always good to keep it in mind. Keep chuggin man I like watching your progress.

Thanks for stopping by hiiipower. I'm happy to see the fading through purple to yellow is so consistent. Some do it more/sooner than others but this is the 4th batch of F3 and it happens regardless of temps and nutes.

There's a lot of confusion on dominant and recessive gene actions. Not just amongst cannabis breeders but in general. Check out the common misconceptions in:
and at:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_(genetics)#Addressing_common_misconceptions

That white amnesia white (AW4) smells just great. Also fattening up now finally. I have a small cutting I'm trying to reveg but unfortunately don't have a clone of the AW4. Clearly slower than the rest so I ditched the clone before the difference in frost became obvious... Because it was slow I also pollinated it later and less. Will probably start growing out its seeds later this year to see if I can find something similar looking and smelling but faster.

Some P x AW seeds that were still on a P-F3 plant 3 days ago... less than 20 hours in slightly warm water, 70% popped so far, I assume the rest will too.

I just had a brilliant idea about how to put more plants in my nft tubes... drill more holes. So got 6 holes in 2 tubes each now. Waiting for the P-F3 to finish the buds and seeds, will push the AW aside and makes space for my tubes. 10 or 11 P-F1 plants, if I get only 4 females I will put them in one tube and save the other tube for the above.

P-F3 turning black again:


Turns out I do have a clone of the white AW4... Was just cleaning out my veg box for drying, and back in the corner I found this:
Was about to throw it away and noticed roots popping out at the bottom... will it bang or will it fizzle...

I have a better one but don't know if it's rooted yet:


It's a cliche by now but it would be nice to be able to upload the smell...

You would think that there would be a scratch n sniff thing that plugs into your usb by now. One that you could rub a bud on and then I could smell it on my scratch n sniff usb, haha. Glad to hear you have an AW4, hope that comes back nicely. Hey, killer link back there about dominance. Co-dominance(or something similar to it) is exactly what I notice when growing most hybrids. Almost all of the seeds I've grown have turned out to have co-dominant traits, only rarely do I find a seed that leans only to one of the parents. What do your seeds usually fall under? Cool to see that in a scientific format. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

DAAMMM GEE SATIVIED i want some seeds man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give me some!!!!

I was skimming through a Peak Seeds Blueberry grow log from another forum and couldn't help but think that you'd find these photos interesting. The thread ended sort of abruptly so I'm not sure what his final thoughts were on his pale colored lady but I got the feeling after his initial optimism that he wasn't digging the trait too much.

Hey thanks for sharing that one. I dropped mine straight on its head and snapped the main stem near the bottom so I ditched it. Could have clone the top but that was a little more time and space than I wanted dedicate to it. It did green up a little. Last time it was seen alive:

Very unlike the other IH plants and the ICE parent.

I just trashed nearly all the seeds from this run. Found a bunch of nanners on the AW5 (less frosty but more bulky sister of AW4), which I pollinated the most. Norma/AW1 was a monoecious hermie so no good either. And while AW4 is super frosty and smells awesome, it's leafy.


Keeping the seeds from that one, but, with 2 out of 3 hermies in the AW females I don't trust the males much either. So I trashed all the P-F3 x AW seeds. Some pretty ones too:


I still have a nice looking female whorler from the CHxCH, wanted to pollinate it with AW pollen too...
probably going to self it instead.





So... not sure what I'm going to do next. I need new germplasm...

thump easy said:

DAAMMM GEE SATIVIED i want some seeds man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hey Thumb, yeah me too. The P cross isn't good enough to be released into the world. Wanted to cross in some traits from Amnesia White (from white label at sensi) but it sucks so have to look for something else. Pretty much back at square one.

Went through all my seeds today to find something to pop. The P-F1 plants seem to be mostly males, so need to add more to fill the space. I could pop some more P-F1, I also have some P-F4 (but from line #4 not #19). Of the 4 IH plants only 1 is female, got it in a small hempy bottle barely taking up space. I want to make sure the AW4 doesn't hermie before I pop its seeds. So, I decided to pop some more CHxCH, the best whorling candidates, and it's fast. If I get a few whorlers I'm going to cross pollinate them all with each other, just to save the genes. I still got plenty of the CHxCH seeds in which I can find whorlers but they are about 2 years old now, would be nice to have some fresh seeds for long term storage.

The P-F1 does express some whorled phyllotaxy but only on a few branches, not the main stem yet.

One of the males. Barely 5 inch tall, working on 5th set of leaves.



Anyway, maybe if the AW4 doesn't hermie, the clone works out, I can pollinate it with a CH male instead.

hiiipower said:

Co-dominance(or something similar to it) is exactly what I notice when growing most hybrids. Almost all of the seeds I've grown have turned out to have co-dominant traits, only rarely do I find a seed that leans only to one of the parents.

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The difference between co-dominance and incomplete dominance is often hard to guesstimate. The classic example is on this page, the flower pic on the right: http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/codominant-traits-people (good site with solid info by the way). In co-dominance they both dominate expressing part of the original trait (like red and white color, both). In case of incomplete dominance they mix, or sort of express half but again both contribute to the phenotype, so red and white becomes pink. The last one is how some folks thought every trait combined: By now we know (thanks to Mendel amongst others) it's not that simple, but in practice for traits that is still often the case.

The Pine taste/smell in my P cross so far seems straight up dominant trait. Very strong in the chunk, and very strong in the P cross completely masking the CH's grapefruit-ish smell. Easily detectable during veg already, and also on males (stems). In the P-F2, even with limited plant count, I had a male and a female that had hints of the CH's smell again, but still a little pine. This indicates there are multiple genes at play (obviously the case for things like terpene profile).

For example if P is pine, p is grape, and assuming for the sake of making a guesstimate that it was homozygous in the parents (which I actually think is the case with at least the pine). Then my F1 was PPxpp = all Pp. My F2 was then 25% PP, 50%Pp, 25% pp. That would mean that those F2 plants smelling like CH (pp) should not have a hint of P, as that would require being Pp, which I know from F1 has not hint of grape. So that's not the case.

Now if the taste would be based on 3 genes, PQr (PP QQ rr) for pine, pqR (ppqqRR) for grape there are different combinations possible of which more than one can smell like a mix. E.g. PQ could still perhaps contribute enough to result in a pine smell, and the R enough of the grape smell. In reality there can be many more. When the underlying gene pairs are homozygous in the dominant side, the trait initially can seem complete dominant. If the underlying gene pairs include heterozygous pairs it can appear initially as incomplete or co dominance.

A more obvious example of my point, take for example a quantitative trait like height. If you cross a small plant with a large plant you get a range of plant size in the offspring. The plants will be on the spectrum between small and large. This is because height is based on many genes. This also means the environment has more influence on that trait, i.e. more phenotypical differences for quantitative traits which increases the perception of getting more variation genetically as well.

So the point is, what looks like incomplete or co dominance is often a mix of multiple underlying gene pairs. In the underlying pairs a side/allele can still dominate completely but possibly not make enough difference for the trait it contributed to dominate in the pheno expression. Dominance/recessive is technically a gene action, it only applies directly to the relationship between two alleles in a pair. So for a trait to be dominant it has to be based on a single pair else some of the pairs that make up the trait can be dominant, but others can be for example co/incomplete dom, recessive, additive, overdominant.

I hope this helps, and thanks for asking, I do enjoy rambling about the theoretic side, obviously in practice your miles will vary :)

Sativied said:

I hope this helps, and thanks for asking, I do enjoy rambling about the theoretic side, obviously in practice your miles will vary :)

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Great post as always man, you're one of the best. Always enjoy reading your posts, good high quality info!

Thanks MrB.

Some pics of AW5 (late hermie) and Norma (AW1, had some male preflowers, stripped the bottom half).

AW5:

It has the desired bud structure, clearly taking after its afghani grandparent. Smells like a mix of Norma and AW4 the frosty one. A mix of afghani coffee/caramel/earthy/hash/indica like taste and haze/thai. Fastest flowering of the bunch, but is spawning a few nanners. If AW4 the frosty one would have the structure of AW4 I'd be really really happy...

Norma, besides the male preflowers, is less fat, more stretchy, and more towards the afghani side. Won't use the seeds from either of these two, but I look forward to smoking it nonetheless. Norma's fading could have been a good match with P-F3. Seemed finished like 3 times already... and then see spawns new white pistils and green sugar leaves again.

Clone from AW5, the fastest AW but with late nanners. Only a handful, no good for seeds, but with the anti-mite treatments and poor soil mix I did stress it out quite a bit. This one is in perlite and some hydroton. Leaves are always flat and perfectly positioned.



Halloween lady beetle finding a warm home for the winter. I normally welcome these in my indoor garden but it appears to be carrying something on its back. Perhaps I should wash it with a wet cotton swab ;)