Can Hydroponics Be Organic?

Aqua Man · May 30, 2019

cemchris said:
Yeah I understand that but we arent talking about what soil growers define something as. We are talking about what organic means and the application to hydroponics.

I went down that rabbit hole for a couple of years. Same thing you were thinking with ebb and flo tables using coco. Nothing but tea's ect. In the end can it be done? sure. You are talking a really temperamental system with a lot of wait and see what happens. I lost 1 or 2 crops out of it and why I decided to move away from it. Was just too much trouble for me at that setup. I was more on the fence with it to see if it worked vs being dedicated to it and making it work. I'm more of the type of person that wants clean rez's, tables, floors ect. Just wasnt for me.

For sure I'm not disagreeing with you there. There has been years and years of research on organics dealing with soil vs hydroponic aspects of it. I think the reason being is in the end it seems to be more trouble then its worth. The amount of variables you are dealing with I think that's why more people move to the aquaponics side of it when going down this road. A self contained system that can regulate itself. Hydro is more of the concept of controlling the inputs and tweaking everything about the feed and grow. Organic hydro, in itself, is the exact opposite of that notion. That is the issue you deal with with just plants in the system and regulating that system to stay equal and not go to 1 side of the scale or not. Not saying it can't be done. Just something I think takes some serious dedication and a lot of science and testing behind it to really understand whats going on. This also comes into play if we are talking strait water culture or medium based. That is 2 totally different animals.

100%agree

damien50 · May 30, 2019

cemchris said:
Yeah I understand that but we arent talking about what soil growers define something as. We are talking about what organic means and the application to hydroponics.

I went down that rabbit hole for a couple of years. Same thing you were thinking with ebb and flo tables using coco. Nothing but tea's ect. In the end can it be done? sure. You are talking a really temperamental system with a lot of wait and see what happens. I lost 1 or 2 crops out of it and why I decided to move away from it. Was just too much trouble for me at that setup. I was more on the fence with it to see if it worked vs being dedicated to it and making it work. I'm more of the type of person that wants clean rez's, tables, floors ect. Just wasnt for me.

For sure I'm not disagreeing with you there. There has been years and years of research on organics dealing with soil vs hydroponic aspects of it. I think the reason being is in the end it seems to be more trouble then its worth. The amount of variables you are dealing with I think that's why more people move to the aquaponics side of it when going down this road. A self contained system that can regulate itself. Hydro is more of the concept of controlling the inputs and tweaking everything about the feed and grow. Organic hydro, in itself, is the exact opposite of that notion. That is the issue you deal with with just plants in the system and regulating that system to stay equal and not go to 1 side of the scale or not. Not saying it can't be done. Just something I think takes some serious dedication and a lot of science and testing behind it to really understand whats going on. This also comes into play if we are talking strait water culture or medium based. That is 2 totally different animals.

I'm a bit more dedicated but I'll be using a base nutrient like pure blend pro bloom with liquid karma, sea green, and enzymes+ beneficials. I kind of intend to make it work but rather than going for organics 'cause they are better' I'm after lower electricity/water/nutrient usage. I'm not commercial and I grow for myself so if I can accomplish those goals whether organic or not I've gotten what I wanted lol.

I mentioned how soil growers define it because with recent issues with Dole and hydroponic produce, proponents aren't willing to give certification or even allow hydroponics inn the same space as organic soil. Maybe if there was a separate standard for hydroponics it would work better but at the same time I don't know how much corporate value outside of revenue is being placed on organics in general.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said and I just don't think we are at a point to really even get into organic soil versus organic hydroponics until we demystify what makes soil growers organic and what parameters for that can be attributed to hydroponics.

Mr.Juice · May 30, 2019

Aquaponics is an amazing system. It’s super complex but kinda idiot proof at the same time. You can have a successful system with basic rudimentary understanding of it. Ive grown root vegetables, greens, succulents and even desert plants in it. Once the system stabilized it works really well. With weed having such high nutrient demands you’d just have to really bump up the fish density.

C.RunningFst · May 31, 2019

Aside from how the agencies want to label things, the biggest thing I see different between hydro and organic is how the food is supplied to the roots. One is a symbiotic relationship and one is not. I think symbiosis is definitely beneficial, and applaud your efforts into furthering the data. I've tried the indoor soil route before with all sorts of organics but switched to hydro because of my ability to select and know exactly what the plant is getting. For me, with soil or organic, trying to diagnose or treat became an issue. At any given time I was clueless as to what the medium was composed of, ie what's broken down and how fast and what colonies are surviving and which aren't and what does flushing do (?) ect ect.

I currently use net pots with coco/perlite/neem and run chemical nutes in the DWC bucket, but top off the net pot medium with additional or extra additives to give a bit of an organic punch (just extra floralicious+, so not super organic I guess). from time to time. Also if my res gets messed up and I lose some res roots ive fed via the top net pot and kept the plant going.

I'm going to be running Ful-Power this next run. Its a fulvic but not sure if it's "organic."

This is the podcast that turned me on to humics substances...

Cannabis Cultivation and Science Podcast Episode 11

In this episode, we interview Dr. Robert Faust, President of Bioag. Robert Faust attended the University of Delaware College of agriculture. His major was entomology and applied ecology. Later he received a B.S degree from University of the State of N.Y, an accredited university in Albany...

www.kisorganics.com

damien50 · May 31, 2019

C.RunningFst said:
Aside from how the agencies want to label things, the biggest thing I see different between hydro and organic is how the food is supplied to the roots. One is a symbiotic relationship and one is not. I think symbiosis is definitely beneficial, and applaud your efforts into furthering the data. I've tried the indoor soil route before with all sorts of organics but switched to hydro because of my ability to select and know exactly what the plant is getting. For me, with soil or organic, trying to diagnose or treat became an issue. At any given time I was clueless as to what the medium was composed of, ie what's broken down and how fast and what colonies are surviving and which aren't and what does flushing do (?) ect ect.

I currently use net pots with coco/perlite/neem and run chemical nutes in the DWC bucket, but top off the net pot medium with additional or extra additives to give a bit of an organic punch (just extra floralicious+, so not super organic I guess). from time to time. Also if my res gets messed up and I lose some res roots ive fed via the top net pot and kept the plant going.

I'm going to be running Ful-Power this next run. Its a fulvic but not sure if it's "organic."

This is the podcast that turned me on to humics substances...

Cannabis Cultivation and Science Podcast Episode 11

In this episode, we interview Dr. Robert Faust, President of Bioag. Robert Faust attended the University of Delaware College of agriculture. His major was entomology and applied ecology. Later he received a B.S degree from University of the State of N.Y, an accredited university in Albany...

www.kisorganics.com

I don't think there is a particular reason to avoid symbiosis even if the benefit is less than that of soil. Inoculation and lowering the stress/work the plant has to perform while getting expedited growth in hydroponics is something I would want in my grows.

I'm going to have to look more into aquatics for information but I think starting with a diverse micro biology and all organic inputs might be a start, maybe even using citric acid in place of ph down as it has benefits to the microbes as well.

I think the whole of organics is more romanticized than realistic.

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
I don't think there is a particular reason to avoid symbiosis even if the benefit is less than that of soil. Inoculation and lowering the stress/work the plant has to perform while getting expedited growth in hydroponics is something I would want in my grows.

I'm going to have to look more into aquatics for information but I think starting with a diverse micro biology and all organic inputs might be a start, maybe even using citric acid in place of ph down as it has benefits to the microbes as well.

I think the whole of organics is more romanticized than realistic.

Tbh you could even go with carbonic acid and just inject CO2 into the water. I did for years with planted tanks and you can literally adjust your ph with a controller. Prob not the most ideal for this application though

damien50 said:
I don't think there is a particular reason to avoid symbiosis even if the benefit is less than that of soil. Inoculation and lowering the stress/work the plant has to perform while getting expedited growth in hydroponics is something I would want in my grows.

I'm going to have to look more into aquatics for information but I think starting with a diverse micro biology and all organic inputs might be a start, maybe even using citric acid in place of ph down as it has benefits to the microbes as well.

I think the whole of organics is more romanticized than realistic.

I used to use peat moss stuffed into pantyhose to lower the pH of my water. If your looking at natural and a good support system for microbes I might suggest a trickle filter that incorporates peat moss, coarse filter sponge, and possibly sand. Makes for an absolutely great home for microbes and can be used to naturally control ph

damien50 · May 31, 2019

Aqua Man said:
Tbh you could even go with carbonic acid and just inject CO2 into the water. I did for years with planted tanks and you can literally adjust your ph with a controller. Prob not the most ideal for this application though

I used to use peat moss stuffed into pantyhose to lower the pH of my water. If your looking at natural and a good support system for microbes I might suggest a trickle filter that incorporates peat moss, coarse filter sponge, and possibly sand. Makes for an absolutely great home for microbes and can be used to naturally control ph

You are a godsend I swear lol. Just read up on the trickle filters. I'm going to scour Amazon and see what I can come up with. Though I might figure out how to build one. I see that they increase aerobic bacteria and help with nitrification but I'm not really understanding that part.

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
You are a godsend I swear lol. Just read up on the trickle filters. I'm going to scour Amazon and see what I can come up with. Though I might figure out how to build one. I see that they increase aerobic bacteria and help with nitrification but I'm not really understanding that part.

Aerobic bacteria simply are bacteria requiring oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria require an area void of oxygen. Like clay beds in lakes after a few inches to feet depending on density there is no oxygen one type of anaerobic bacteria produces H2S (hydrogen sulfide)gas for instance and that can happen in aquaponics killing all your fish.

If you want to seed find someone with an old fish tank one that has run a long time and only has had partial water changes. It will be loaded with denitrifying bacteria. Put a sponge filter in it for a week then take it home and out it in your system. You save your self about 5-6 weeks that they take to occurs naturally. They are responsible for breaking ammonia/ammonium down in to nitrites and then nitrates. There are also anaerobic strains but you want to stay away from anaerobic conditions

If you need help I have built plenty

damien50 · May 31, 2019

Aqua Man said:
Aerobic bacteria simply are bacteria requiring oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria require an area void of oxygen. Like clay beds in lakes after a few inches to feet depending on density there is no oxygen one type of anaerobic bacteria produces H2S (hydrogen sulfide)gas for instance and that can happen in aquaponics killing all your fish.

If you need help I have built plenty

Yeah I would love some help. I have a very general idea but the finer details escape me. It seems like it would be better than a foam filter and I have multiple trays for enhanced filtration right?

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
Yeah I would love some help. I have a very general idea but the finer details escape me. It seems like it would be better than a foam filter and I have multiple trays for enhanced filtration right?

Yes for both aquariums and your purpose. Because there is a A LOT more oxygen. You can literally build it out of the little plastic drawer stands. Drill holes in the bottom of each drawer and fill each with a different media. Using plastic screens to cover the holes if using finer filter material like peat moss. Bulk head in the bottom that gravity feeds your system and pump water Ito the top. Like a res that has tiers on top of it.
But they work best with low flow

damien50 · May 31, 2019

So the

Aqua Man said:
Yes for both aquariums and your purpose. Because there is a A LOT more oxygen. You can literally build it out of the little plastic drawer stands. Drill holes in the bottom of each drawer and fill each with a different media. Using plastic screens to cover the holes if using finer filter material like peat moss. Bulk head in the bottom that gravity feeds your system and pump water Ito the top. Like a res that has tiers on top of it.
But they work best with low flow

So the top tray is bio foam, second tray is sand?, and the third tray is peat moss in a stocking?

Okay I'm going to try this lay this out for reference lol.

400gph pump in the reservoir pulls water up into a top tray with bio foam.

Bio foam tray trickles down into sand?

Sand tray trickles down into peat moss

Peat moss tray trickles down into reservoir

Takes my 8.1 ph and regulates it, houses microbes in the trays that break down organics for the plants, aerates the hell out of the reservoir, and keeps my reservoir water clean?

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
So the

So the top tray is bio foam, second tray is sand?, and the third tray is peat moss in a stocking?

Okay I'm going to try this lay this out for reference lol.

400gph pump in the reservoir pulls water up into a top tray with bio foam.

Bio foam tray trickles down into sand?

Sand tray trickles down into peat moss

Peat moss tray trickles down into reservoir

Takes my 8.1 ph and regulates it, houses microbes in the trays that break down organics for the plants, aerates the hell out of the reservoir, and keeps my reservoir water clean?

Yes but the tricky part is making sure you have enough holes to accommodate the flow. You may need some test runs outside to get it where it needs. Depending on the size you build you may want a smaller pump.

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

If you are going with sand it can really make a difference in allowable flow. And I would line with cheesecloth.

To make as effective as possible I would incorporate it separately. Basically just a loop add to your res with a seperate adjustable pump. Just plumb it in like a seperate bucket you would add. You can also incorporate a small float switch in the sand drawer for safety. You will want it as dark as possible so if you can find one in black that would be ideal.

If you simply want to test how well peat moss adjusts ph just put some in pantyhose and throw it in a 5 gal pail with some agitation like and air stone

damien50 · May 31, 2019

Aqua Man said:
Yes but the tricky part is making sure you have enough holes to accommodate the flow. You may need some test runs outside to get it where it needs. Depending on the size you build you may want a smaller pump.

I'm thinking of using between 40-55 gallons as its easier to maintain a larger reservoir versus a smaller one.

Could I cycle the pump like 15 on 15 off?

What is the benefit of sand and what should I use?

I've seen some mentions of using lava rocks and the organics hydro method mentioned earlier employed lava rocks. Your thoughts?

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
I'm thinking of using between 40-55 gallons as its easier to maintain a larger reservoir versus a smaller one.

Could I cycle the pump like 15 on 15 off?

What is the benefit of sand and what should I use?

I've seen some mentions of using lava rocks and the organics hydro method mentioned earlier employed lava rocks. Your thoughts?

Lava rocks works well... You are looking for pourus material as it creates more surface area for bacterial colonization.
Hell even a buncha plastic pot washers work well but there are better options.

detroitjoe · May 31, 2019

Aqua Man said:
I also believe it can but only to an extent. it's not simple and the biggest challenge is trying to get the diverse micro climate of bacteria, fungi and microbes.

Simply put the barrier is the medium. Several beneficial bacteria, fungi and microbes just cannot colonize and reproduce or even survive in just water. However there are some that do thrive. But even if we could innoculate all the diverse micro organisms to begin with the majority would not survive.

It's would be like place land animals in the middle of the ocean or dolphins on land and expecting they would live.

There are however bacteria of different strains as well as fungi and microbes that do provide similar functions and thrive in water. With the large amount agriculture research over the last decades we have more answers about growing in soil than we do about growing in water. But we are gaining some ground in that area now so things might change as more studies are being done

what is organic?

organic is a commercial term for commercial purposes.
you would have to produce everything in sterile environment
.nothing is pure . cells are programmed to adjust ( within certain ranges )

damien50 · May 31, 2019

Aqua Man said:
Lava rocks works well... You are looking for pourus material as it creates more surface area for bacterial colonization.
Hell even a buncha plastic pot washers work well but there are better options.

So is sand preferable to lava rocks? Would the peat keep my ph at a more stable range versus my 8.1 tap?

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

damien50 said:
So is sand preferable to lava rocks? Would the peat keep my ph at a more stable range versus my 8.1 tap?

Sand is more mechanical filtration it will catch very tiny organic matter and allow the bacteria to consume it. Not a must and filter floss might be a good substitute. But neither of these would be a must.

How much it buffers your ph will be determined by how much buffering capacity your water has and that will determine how often you need to replace the peat moss. It will lower your ph but I cannot say how much best to test in a 5 gal pail in the same ratio as would be in your system. Never change all filter material at once only 1 at a time so that the bacteria have a chance to recolonize

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

It will easily get your ph below 6 it's just a question of how much you need to add in order to do it

Aqua Man · May 31, 2019

And just so you are aware the peat will leech tannins into the water so your roots may look a bit darker. One of the reasons I used sand and filter floss when I used it. Purigen also works but is not cheap however it is renewable. That part won't be an issue since it's not like you are looking at you water for viewing pleasure

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