Can Hydroponics Be Organic?

[damien50]

I've been reading up on biodynamic farming and some other soil method recently out of curiosity. After reading about many of these various methods they all at some point focused on improving the micro biology of the soil and that it is really about taking care of the soil and the soil taking care of the plants. So I started wondering about organics in hydroponics with a strong micro biology.

From everything I've been able to find, organic hydroponics is possible but that is about how far it really goes. I found some info about 'bioponics' by William Texier who seems to be more of A GH stooge that an innovator. The one thing of note he mentions for organic hydroponics was the use of a bio filter or two in the reservoir for the micro biology to latch on to and to filter the water.

I know Canna has an organic line specifically for coco and that Botanicare offers organics however their Pure Blend Pro is not OMRI certified due to humic acid derived from leonardite. I'll go ahead and get to my point though.

Assuming a strong micro biology could be created in something like Rockwool, DWC, or any inert medium, what really would make hydroponics still not be considered organic?

From what I have been able to find, many common deficiencies, mold, salt build up, pathogens, etc would be eliminated and or a lot less likely to occur with a strong micro biology.

Is organic still not something hydroponics would be allowed to have next to it because of the lack of soil or maybe the definition of organic only catering to soil?

I believe organic hydroponics is possible but seems to be something done by few cultivars like vertical lighting or colosseum growing. But am I missing something as to why hydroponics can't be considered organic despite water being organic and the rhizosphere being managed by micro biology?

 

[oldskol4evr]

ive read plenty on the matter myself,my call is no it cant,same with coco,you can feed all the organic lines you wont and call it organic,but in my opinion,only organic means mother earth and all her properties to include weather changes and sever heats and such,with coco you can feed the lineup to them and the coco and or peatmoss pro mix puts out the same,but once you harvest that plant it no longer is unless you continue to feed that pot if you dig,mother earth always leave something like roots 4 ft deep in the soil and bioligy going deeper for the nutrients of it and your harvest,kinda like grass,you see it a foot tall in your yard,but dont see the structure below,feeding organic line to the peat and coco ends at the bottom of pot,were soil goes on forever making the sedment except what it has to give,the sedement then is deeper if you get what i mean,ive tried some organic bottle lines in my container garden and it did half ass ,when i used it in my down hill garden,beds and corn plot,my shit died,so that gave me the idea that organic nute line made by manufacture really is more leaning to a closed bottom instead of running into soil,just my opinion,but go to your local grocery organic section,buy a apple organic grown take it home and pour hot water over it,if it has a substance that resembles wax it isnt organic,but was grown that way,the omri rating we insist on when we buy stuff is sometimes shoved under the carpet and misleading just to sell product,so how can you prove that a bag of garden soil with that listing is really omri rated bag says so,but you cant once water is added there no way to tell,great example of what i pitching is right at kelp4less,all there products claim they are organic but then state they dont do it for cost.
ive used there products for years and still do,when the price is right,but that claim is horse shit too,in the back of your mind and there sales pitch you think it is but is it,so i shop cheaper prices,i dont use buildasoil stuff at all,i be damn if im gonna pay individal shipping cost per product.just my 2 cent dont mean nothing to nobody but me,but hell im onboard with you trying it,i just started a hydro outside in 33 gal can no pump no air and cant wait to see how it goes,seed did pop out ground after 3 days,yesterday,this morning the bitch grew 1 in over night,so im neuatral in my growing and always give stuff a try if you dig,i dont lean to water or soil,all i want is meds and veggies hahaah,what works i stick with,lmao

 

[Aqua Man]

I also believe it can but only to an extent. it's not simple and the biggest challenge is trying to get the diverse micro climate of bacteria, fungi and microbes.

Simply put the barrier is the medium. Several beneficial bacteria, fungi and microbes just cannot colonize and reproduce or even survive in just water. However there are some that do thrive. But even if we could innoculate all the diverse micro organisms to begin with the majority would not survive.

It's would be like place land animals in the middle of the ocean or dolphins on land and expecting they would live.

There are however bacteria of different strains as well as fungi and microbes that do provide similar functions and thrive in water. With the large amount agriculture research over the last decades we have more answers about growing in soil than we do about growing in water. But we are gaining some ground in that area now so things might change as more studies are being done

 

[damien50]

I also believe it can but only to an extent. it's not simple and the biggest challenge is trying to get the diverse micro climate of bacteria, fungi and microbes.

Simply put the barrier is the medium. Several beneficial bacteria, fungi and microbes just cannot colonize and reproduce or even survive in just water. However there are some that do thrive. But even if we could innoculate all the diverse micro organisms to begin with the majority would not survive.

It's would be like place land animals in the middle of the ocean or dolphins on land and expecting they would live.

There are however bacteria of different strains as well as fungi and microbes that do provide similar functions and thrive in water. With the large amount agriculture research over the last decades we have more answers about growing in soil than we do about growing in water. But we are gaining some ground in that area now so things might change as more studies are being done

With the medium in currently vegging in, they have included bio filter foam all through the Rockwool to allow everything to thrive plus it aids in aeration. I think it's something to be considered for mediums that don't naturally allow microbes and the like to thrive.

I was watching a podcast with Malibu Compost and the co owner spoke about how even introducing a new micro biology into foreign soil was likely to cause a die off of up to 60%. I think this becomes part of the larger issue with methods that do not provide a medium. Only so much can colonize the roots and even with bio filters, as you said only so many will live in the aerated water.

I'll have to buy a microscope but I intend to observe the bio foam in the medium and see what kind of activity is present.

My idea was for an organic ebb and flow with several aerated bio filters in the reservoir to keep it clean and colonize. I assume much will be in the medium and rhizo but, assuming again, I'll keep a cleaner reservoir that could go 1-3 months and help stabilize and break down salts and underused nutrients so waste as little nutrient and water as possible. Supposedly more than 70psi will cause microbes and stuff to die but I figure a 400mph and 180mph pump don't have enough psi.

 

[Aqua Man]

With the medium in currently vegging in, they have included bio filter foam all through the Rockwool to allow everything to thrive plus it aids in aeration. I think it's something to be considered for mediums that don't naturally allow microbes and the like to thrive.

I was watching a podcast with Malibu Compost and the co owner spoke about how even introducing a new micro biology into foreign soil was likely to cause a die off of up to 60%. I think this becomes part of the larger issue with methods that do not provide a medium. Only so much can colonize the roots and even with bio filters, as you said only so many will live in the aerated water.

I'll have to buy a microscope but I intend to observe the bio foam in the medium and see what kind of activity is present.

My idea was for an organic ebb and flow with several aerated bio filters in the reservoir to keep it clean and colonize. I assume much will be in the medium and rhizo but, assuming again, I'll keep a cleaner reservoir that could go 1-3 months and help stabilize and break down salts and underused nutrients so waste as little nutrient and water as possible. Supposedly more than 70psi will cause microbes and stuff to die but I figure a 400mph and 180mph pump don't have enough psi.

I wouldn't worry about the pump its more the media and amount of it that impact the microbes. If your going to look into this the most important part is identifying the microbes and then how they reproduce and the environment they prefer. The rest should be easier.

I have used tons of media to support bacteria and microbes for over 20 years. Ceramics, plastics, foam, sand and many more. I run a canister filter on my res right now with a lot of that media in it and only change out 50% max water at a time for the purpose or retaining a thriving colony of denitrifying bacteria.

Good luck on this as I think the more you look into it the more complex you will see it is and you can spend a lifetime trying to replicate soil and more than likely not achieve it.

 

[oldskol4evr]

what blows my mind is how it is done,omri registered farmers have folk coming to there fields like a parole officer ,just show up shit,ok i buy that but dont you also think that same farmer would try to do as little as possible to come out ahead? so im thinking testing on the spot,what is it? taking it back to a lab and analize it takes months some times,harvest is done and sold organic certified,nothing stops it from being misrepresented and sold while the omri takes there register away,so there is a fine line there,and most do called soiless like coco and peat organic,well water is soiless too right?
im with doing it my way and finding out,give it a shot and see ,hell you might start a new fad if you dig

 

[damien50]

ive read plenty on the matter myself,my call is no it cant,same with coco,you can feed all the organic lines you wont and call it organic,but in my opinion,only organic means mother earth and all her properties to include weather changes and sever heats and such,with coco you can feed the lineup to them and the coco and or peatmoss pro mix puts out the same,but once you harvest that plant it no longer is unless you continue to feed that pot if you dig,mother earth always leave something like roots 4 ft deep in the soil and bioligy going deeper for the nutrients of it and your harvest,kinda like grass,you see it a foot tall in your yard,but dont see the structure below,feeding organic line to the peat and coco ends at the bottom of pot,were soil goes on forever making the sedment except what it has to give,the sedement then is deeper if you get what i mean,ive tried some organic bottle lines in my container garden and it did half ass ,when i used it in my down hill garden,beds and corn plot,my shit died,so that gave me the idea that organic nute line made by manufacture really is more leaning to a closed bottom instead of running into soil,just my opinion,but go to your local grocery organic section,buy a apple organic grown take it home and pour hot water over it,if it has a substance that resembles wax it isnt organic,but was grown that way,the omri rating we insist on when we buy stuff is sometimes shoved under the carpet and misleading just to sell product,so how can you prove that a bag of garden soil with that listing is really omri rated bag says so,but you cant once water is added there no way to tell,great example of what i pitching is right at kelp4less,all there products claim they are organic but then state they dont do it for cost.
ive used there products for years and still do,when the price is right,but that claim is horse shit too,in the back of your mind and there sales pitch you think it is but is it,so i shop cheaper prices,i dont use buildasoil stuff at all,i be damn if im gonna pay individal shipping cost per product.just my 2 cent dont mean nothing to nobody but me,but hell im onboard with you trying it,i just started a hydro outside in 33 gal can no pump no air and cant wait to see how it goes,seed did pop out ground after 3 days,yesterday,this morning the bitch grew 1 in over night,so im neuatral in my growing and always give stuff a try if you dig,i dont lean to water or soil,all i want is meds and veggies hahaah,what works i stick with,lmao

I think the orgasmic certifications are probably biased and with the rise of cannabis nutrients and what manufacturers attempt to sell has changed. Though I sort of agree with what you would consider organic and ultimately it seems to be subjective what anyone might consider organic. We can't control sea level, altitude, weather, micro biology, insects, animals, and other factors outside past a certain degree.

What gets me is the claim that organics reach true genetic potential but I don't know how we know that. I would think a sativa grown Africa then grown in Ecuador then grown in Alabama soil would express different genetic traits because everything changes.

 

[oldskol4evr]

tell ya another thing folks forget and in my opinion one of the most important factors especially with outdoor plants,i proved it to myself,soil texture,clay is very important for colinies and your p and k uptakes,it balance with sand and silt keep the plant from looking like melted wax on a 105 degree day,if you can manage to mimic clay compounds with the organic nutes you use,you might even have less temp swings in your res ,i dont know way over my head,but no for a fact clay is most important and all others can be replicated

 

[oldskol4evr]

I think the orgasmic certifications are probably biased and with the rise of cannabis nutrients and what manufacturers attempt to sell has changed. Though I sort of agree with what you would consider organic and ultimately it seems to be subjective what anyone might consider organic. We can't control sea level, altitude, weather, micro biology, insects, animals, and other factors outside past a certain degree.

What gets me is the claim that organics reach true genetic potential but I don't know how we know that. I would think a sativa grown Africa then grown in Ecuador then grown in Alabama soil would express different genetic traits because everything changes.

there ya go ,thats what i mean,last paragraph explains it,all comes right back the root of all evil,money and big biz,right there is why they cant figure out wild lettuce,the properties in the lab cant figure why it has opium effects and they cant regulate,with the so called rating in the north dont mean sqaut down south,so were it all stand

 

[RippedTorn]

Organic means one thing and one thing only when it comes to Cannabis growing. Does the root digest a natural food source, or does it absorb a vitamin directly.

There is no other place to draw the line. Sorry hippies. That is the only difference that matters between a real plant and a IV coma patient vitamin breath shell of a plant.

 

[damien50]

I wouldn't worry about the pump its more the media and amount of it that impact the microbes. If your going to look into this the most important part is identifying the microbes and then how they reproduce and the environment they prefer. The rest should be easier.

I have used tons of media to support bacteria and microbes for over 20 years. Ceramics, plastics, foam, sand and many more. I run a canister filter on my res right now with a lot of that media in it and only change out 50% max water at a time for the purpose or retaining a thriving colony of denitrifying bacteria.

Good luck on this as I think the more you look into it the more complex you will see it is and you can spend a lifetime trying to replicate soil and more than likely not achieve it.

Replicating soil is the one thing I don't want to do indoors. I'll grow food and stuff in soil because I have more space and I would probably employ bio dynamic agriculture if I went outdoors. I want to maximize the quality and yield that I get in hydro while reducing water and nutrient usage. If it is by using organics and micro biology that is what I will attempt but I don't want to copy or necessarily be better than soil rather if by chance that occurred I'm fine with it.

I will start looking into microbes more because I feel I'm going in blind on this particular part.

 

[oldskol4evr]

Replicating soil is the one thing I don't want to do indoors. I'll grow food and stuff in soil because I have more space and I would probably employ bio dynamic agriculture if I went outdoors. I want to maximize the quality and yield that I get in hydro while reducing water and nutrient usage. If it is by using organics and micro biology that is what I will attempt but I don't want to copy or necessarily be better than soil rather if by chance that occurred I'm fine with it.

I will start looking into microbes more because I feel I'm going in blind on this particular part.

read teaming with microbes a great read,like the above jump in said,it is what it is,but not a thing stops you from trying,flood and drain would be a lot better in my opinion,the constant recirculation might give you the upper hand

 

[damien50]

Organic means one thing and one thing only when it comes to Cannabis growing. Does the root digest a natural food source, or does it absorb a vitamin directly.

There is no other place to draw the line. Sorry hippies. That is the only difference that matters between a real plant and a IV coma patient vitamin breath shell of a plant.

Explain more please

 

[Aqua Man]

Organic means one thing and one thing only when it comes to Cannabis growing. Does the root digest a natural food source, or does it absorb a vitamin directly.

There is no other place to draw the line. Sorry hippies. That is the only difference that matters between a real plant and a IV coma patient vitamin breath shell of a plant.

I feel it's more complex. But I also don't feel that organic is well defined nor accurate. Bacteria create enzymes and different microbes effect plants health and nutrition differently. Personally I think these relationships have more impact than most think and can say organically grown foods or cannabis quality can vary greatly from this.

Added: basically I'm saying you can have all the organic nutrients you want but without the diverse micro climate it's doesn't mean shit as these little guys are the ones responsible for breaking it all down making nutrients and enzymes available that the plants require

 

[cemchris]

So would the guys from the IC and OG days running the bio buckets with lava rocks and feeding nothing but teas not be organic hydro? Microbes/bacetria colonizing the lava rock and feeding the plants. They ran them like fish tanks.

 

[damien50]

read teaming with microbes a great read,like the above jump in said,it is what it is,but not a thing stops you from trying,flood and drain would be a lot better in my opinion,the constant recirculation might give you the upper hand

Been planning to buy that for since weeks now.

That was my thought with ebb and flow a s well. If I can create a diverse micro biology it would lower my inputs and let the medium and microbes work for the plants rather than a dead reservoir where the plant does the work.

 

[damien50]

So would the guys from the IC and OG days running the bio buckets with lava rocks and feeding nothing but teas not be organic hydro? Microbes/bacetria colonizing the lava rock and feeding the plants. They ran them like fish tanks.

I forgot to mention that but with current definitions it wouldn't be considered organic by soil growers. There needs to be definitions for soil and hydroponic growers since both methods are viable options for growing. We can't say its unnatural for sea plants but it wouldn't be considered so for hydroponics. I'm seeing bias and money issues when this topic comes up in regards to regulation and certifications. Ultimately the hydro people stand to gain more in the long run because they aren't totally limited by environment and organic hydroponics isn't deeply researched or understood.

 

[cemchris]

I guess also bringing up aquaponics. I don't think it gets much more organic then that as long as you arent feeding them amm pellets.

 

[Aqua Man]

So would the guys from the IC and OG days running the bio buckets with lava rocks and feeding nothing but teas not be organic hydro? Microbes/bacetria colonizing the lava rock and feeding the plants. They ran them like fish tanks.

Absolutely. But there is a difference as I just pointed out in my last post. Organic is not equal. Just because it was grown with organic nutrients the quality can vary. We know a lot more about soil than hydroponics in terms of microclimate. Let's look at environment. Cannabis has spent who knows how many years adapting in soil and developing relationships with microbes bugs etc. We cant just change a major part of its environment and expect it to respond in the same way. There will be an impact of that change. The supporting environment has now changed when going to hydro even with the use of teas etc. We are not going to replicate what has taken millions of years (absolute guess) in hydro there are different strains of bacteria etc that perform similar functions and I don't feel we are even close to matching that of soil. Like I say there will be an impact. I don't feel the word organic even has a place for this reason and organic grown vs organic grown can be light years apart in terms of quality product

 

[cemchris]

I forgot to mention that but with current definitions it wouldn't be considered organic by soil growers. There needs to be definitions for soil and hydroponic growers since both methods are viable options for growing. We can't say its unnatural for sea plants but it wouldn't be considered so for hydroponics. I'm seeing bias and money issues when this topic comes up in regards to regulation and certifications. Ultimately the hydro people stand to gain more in the long run because they aren't totally limited by environment and organic hydroponics isn't deeply researched or understood.

Yeah I understand that but we arent talking about what soil growers define something as. We are talking about what organic means and the application to hydroponics.

I went down that rabbit hole for a couple of years. Same thing you were thinking with ebb and flo tables using coco. Nothing but tea's ect. In the end can it be done? sure. You are talking a really temperamental system with a lot of wait and see what happens. I lost 1 or 2 crops out of it and why I decided to move away from it. Was just too much trouble for me at that setup. I was more on the fence with it to see if it worked vs being dedicated to it and making it work. I'm more of the type of person that wants clean rez's, tables, floors ect. Just wasnt for me.

Absolutely. But there is a difference as I just pointed out in my last post. Organic is not equal. Just because it was grown with organic nutrients the quality can vary. We know a lot more about soil than hydroponics in terms of microclimate. Let's look at environment. Cannabis has spent who knows how many years adapting in soil and developing relationships with microbes bugs etc. We cant just change a major part of its environment and expect it to respond in the same way. There will be an impact of that change. The supporting environment has now changed when going to hydro even with the use of teas etc. We are not going to replicate what has taken millions of years (absolute guess) in hydro there are different strains of bacteria etc that perform similar functions and I don't feel we are even close to matching that of soil. Like I say there will be an impact. I don't feel the word organic even has a place for this reason and organic grown vs organic grown can be light years apart in terms of quality product

For sure I'm not disagreeing with you there. There has been years and years of research on organics dealing with soil vs hydroponic aspects of it. I think the reason being is in the end it seems to be more trouble then its worth. The amount of variables you are dealing with I think that's why more people move to the aquaponics side of it when going down this road. A self contained system that can regulate itself. Hydro is more of the concept of controlling the inputs and tweaking everything about the feed and grow. Organic hydro, in itself, is the exact opposite of that notion. That is the issue you deal with with just plants in the system and regulating that system to stay equal and not go to 1 side of the scale or not. Not saying it can't be done. Just something I think takes some serious dedication and a lot of science and testing behind it to really understand whats going on. This also comes into play if we are talking strait water culture or medium based. That is 2 totally different animals.