dextr0 said:

No this is not the reason for a second wash with Alcohol. Its to take the impurities out that are left when using butane as a solvent. Im just saying I still taste butane so its not getting rid of that.

Here is a thread that explains the whole process pretty well.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=168388

Click to expand...

We seem to be saying the same thing.

Mmmmasonite said:

GO and Bio Bizz are two completely different companies. Bio Bizz is a Holland based company and General Organics is GH's organic baby. The response I get from people is that General Organics is crap. I have seen really good herb from Bio bizz however and you can run it in hydro as well. I have heard nothing but good things from customers who use Bio bizz.

Click to expand...

DER!
"After an exhaustive quest for the ultimate organic fertilizer, General Hydroponics has teamed up with the premier European organic nutrient producer BioBizz of Holland to form the joint venture GH-BB."


THIS IS WHERE GO CAME FROM... I should have posted the link to start, for the skeptics.

Udyana Peace said:

Bubblemang

The specific compounds that I'm interested in isolating are the triterpenes (limonoids) found in the neem tree, i.e. leaves, bark, root, seeds, seed husk, etc.

Besides Azadirachtin (including deacetylazadirachtinol) there is salannin, meliantriol, and nimbin (nimbidin) which provide another range of uses agains certain viruses like potato virus X, vaccinia virus, et al.

I received an answer to an email I sent to the Parker Group which controls much of the neem exports to North America and Europe. Using alcohol you can expect to end up with 2% nimbin levels using neem seeds which are easily sourced.

I'm glad you liked the neem emulsion and wanted to add something about karanja seed oil. Karanja oil has about 1/3 the viscosity of neem oil making emulsifying easier and quicker. It also has about 10% of the smell and some people might like that.

If you have fresh lavender flowers give this a shot. Get 2 cups of fresh lavender flowers and put into a food processor with an equal amount of water. Puree.

Add this to a container and fill with water until you get about 1.5 gallons. Let this sit for 36 hours or so. Strain to remove the plant material and cap.

When mixing either the neem or karanja oil for sparaying, add 1/4 cup of the lavender tea to the water that you'll be mixing the emulsified oil(s) in. Everything else remains the same (surfactant, silica, etc.)

UP

Click to expand...

stellar post as usual. Ahimsa should give you free product. I will put you in contact with my friend (a much older gentleman) who is my fractional distillation source. For the rest: fractional distillation may sound fancy, but it is not. It just means boiling a solution and separating the steam into fractions by boiling points. This is a common practice to isolate essential oils.

You are growing neem trees? My hero!

Oh jeez, this could totally plant the soap nut seed in me again.

"Be sure and get a clean Extraction wth a NP NP solvent the lighter the better ( PE, DCM,etc) then carefully fractionate the condensed extract .5C per step after you get a ball park for what you are expecting to finds BP Vacuum is the best way to go but I do simple fractionations wih a home still unit at .5C steps and get mixed light terpenes between ~80-150C and sesquiterpinoids at higher temps. Looks like I found a way to find out the analysis soon. But for neem mixed terpenoids can easily be pulled with most NP solvents and fractionating will separate most of them with some isomers and close compounds as "contaminants"
let me know how it goes!"

UP: this is from a friend up in coos bay. Ill give you his contact if you wish. Or ask him to explain his actual parameters if you plan on doing home distillations. Have a good one.

NP = non polar. DCM = dichloromethane. PE = propylene glycol (a form of ether if I am not mistaken)

Neem:
Neem is a fairly well researched medicinal plant, and as a result a number of constituents have been isolated from it. Among these are bitter-tasting terpenes called limonoids, including azadirachtin, Neemnal, nimbidiol, margocin, margocinin and related compounds, as well as a variety of other terpenoids including isoazadirolide, nimbocinolide, gedunin, margosinone and nimbonone. More recently, researchers have isolated a series of tetranortriterpenoids including azadirachtol, 1alpha,2alpha-epoxy-17beta-hydroxyazadiradione, 1alpha,2alpha-epoxynimolicinol, and 7-deacetylnimolicinol. Other constituents include the flavonoids kaempferol, quercetin, quercitrin, rutin, and myricetin, as well as ?-sitosterol, a tannin, a gum, and a series of polysaccharides named CSP-II and -III, CSSP-I, -II, and -III, etc (Duke 2003; Malathi et al 2002; Hallur et al 2002; Williamson 2002, 57; Luo et al 2000; Kapoor 1990, 60).

This site is really informative. It breaks down the parts of the neem tree and which terpenoids can be isolated from them.... including neem cake which you know all about.
"To give a brief background, chemical investigations of neem were undertaken by Indian pharmaceutical chemists in 1919, whereby they isolated acidic principle in neem oil, which they named as 'margosic acid". However, real chemical research originated in 1942 with isolation of three active constituents, viz, nimbin, nimbidin and nimbinene. In 1963 an Indian scientist extensively examined the chemistry of the active principles of neem. Following the discovery of neem kernel as a locust feeding deterrent, its chemistry has grown considerably. Several compounds have been isolated and characterized. The main feature is that most of them are chemically similar and biogenetically derivable from a tetracyclicterpenes. These are also called liminoids (azadirachtin, meliantrol, salanin etc.) bitter principles and occur in other botanical species as well (Rutaceae and Simaroubaceae). The unraveling of high complex structural features and biogenetic interrelationship represent classic piece of work on natural product chemistry. From the practical side these compounds also exhibit a wide variety of biological activity, for example, pesticides, antifeedants, and cytotoxic properties.

Levaes maily yield quercetin (flavonoid) and nimbosterol (ß- sitosterol) as well as number of liminoids (nimbin and its derivatives). Quercetin (a polyphenolic flavonoid) is known to have antibacterial and antifungal properties. This may perhaps account for the curative properties of leaves for sores and scabies. Limonoids like nimocinolide and isonimocinolide affect fecundity in house flies (Musca domestica) at a dose ranging between 100 and 500 ppm. They also show mutagenic properties in mosquitoes (Aedes aegypti) producing intermediates. Fresh matured leaves yield an odorous viscous essential oil, which exhibits antifungal activity against fungi (Trichophyton mentagrophytes) in vitro. White crystalline flakes obtained from petroleum ether extract of leaves consisting of a mixture of C 14, C 24, C 31 alkanes were found to exceed or equal the lavicidal activity of pyrethrum extract. The principal constituents of neem leaves include protein (7.1%), carbohydrates (22.9%), minerals, calcium, phosphorus, vitamin C, carotene etc. But they also contain glutamic acid, tyrosine, aspartic acid, alanine, praline, glutamine and cystine like amino acids, and several fatty acids (dodecanoic, tetradecanoic, elcosanic, etc.).

Besides, the essential oil consisting of sesquiterpene derivatives, the flowers contain nimbosterol and flavonoids like kaempferol, melicitrin etc. Flowers also yield a waxy material consisting of several fatty acids, viz., behenic (0.7%), arachidic (0.7%), stearic (8.2%), palmitic (13.6%), oleic (6.5%) and linoleic (8.0%). The pollen of neem contains several amino acids like glumatic acid, tyrosine, arginine, methionion, phenylalanine, histidine, arminocaprylic acid and isoleucine.

The trunk bark contains nimbn (0.04%), nimbinin (0.001%), nimbidin (0.4%), nimbosterol (0.03%), essential oil (0.02%), tannins (6.0%), a bitter principle margosine and 6-desacetyl nimbinene. The stem bark contains tannins (12-16%) and non-tannin (8-11%). The bark contains anti-inflammatory polysaccharide consisting of glucose, arabinose and fructose at a molar ratio 1:1:1 with molecular weight of 8,400. The bark also yields an antitumor polysaccharide. Besides polysaccharides, several diterpenoids, viz., nimbinone, nimbolicin, margocin, nimbidiol, nimbione, etc. have been isolated from stem bark and root bark.

Besides ß- sitosterol, 24-methylenelophenol and nimatone, the heartwood contains, calcium, potassium and iron salts. The heartwood on destructive distillation gives charcoal (30%) and pyroligeneous acid (38.4%). Neem wood contains, cellulose, hemicellulose (14.00%) and lignin (14.63%), while wood oil contains ß-sitosterol, cycloeucalenol and 24- methylenecyceloartenol.

The tree exudes a gum, which on hydrolysis yields, L-arabinose, L-fucose, D-galactose and D-glucoronic acid. The older tree exudes a sap containing free sugars (glucose, fructose, mannose and xylose), amino acids (alanine, aminobutyric acid, arginine, asparagines, aspartic acid, glycine, norvaline, praline, etc) and organic acids (citric, malonic, succinic and fumaric). The sap is reported to be useful in the treatment of general weakness and skin diseases.

Seed is very important both because of its high lipid content as well as the occurrence of a large number of bitter principles (azadirachtin, azadiradione, fraxinellone, nimbin, salannin, salannol, vepinin, vilasinin, etc.) in considerable quantities. Azadirachtin has proven effectiveness as a pesticide against about 200 insect species and is reported as non-toxic to humans. Neem kernel lipids are similar to the normal glycerides from other oilseeds and contains oleic acid (50-60%), palmitic acid (13-15%), stearic acid (14-19%), linoleic acid (8-16%) and arachidic acid (1-3%). It is brownish yellow, non-drying oil with an acrid taste and unpleasant odour. The quality of the oil differs with the method of processing.
The composition of neem cake after the extraction of oil varies widely depending on the raw material used for expelling, for example, whole dried fruits, seeds or kernels. The range of the proximate composition in percentage are: crude protein 13-35, carbohydrates 26-50, crude fibre 8-26, fat 2-13, ash 5-18, acid insoluble ash 1-7. The bitter cake has no value as animal or poultry feed. Extraction of cake with 70% alcohol followed by hexane yields a meal free from bitterness and odour, which will be satisfactory as feed. The neem cake is rich in most of the amino acids. It is a potential source of organic manure and contains many plant nutrients, viz., nitrogen 2-3%, phosphorus 1% and potassium 1.4%. It also contains 1.0-1.5% tannic acid and has the highest sulphur content of 1.07 - 1.36% among the oil cakes. The neem cake contains a large number of triterpenoids, more of which are being discovered."

"LIMONOIDS: So far, at least nine, Saosis Neem cake limonoids have demonstrated an ability to block insect growth, affecting a range of species that includes some of the most deadly pests of agriculture and human health. New limonoids are still being discovered in saosis neem cake, but Azadirachtin, Salannin, Meliantriol, and Nimbin are the best known and, for now at least, seem to be the most significant.

AZADIRACHTIN: One of the most active ingredient isolated from Saosis Neem cake is Azadirachtin. Azadirachtin has been proved to be the tree's main agent for battling insects. Azadirachtin appears to cause around 90 percent of the pesticidal effect on most pests. It does not kill insects instantly, instead it repels and disrupts their growth & reproduction. Research over the past 20 years has shown that it is one of the most potential growth regulator and feeding deterrents ever assayed. It repels or reduce the feeding habit of many species of pest and insect, as well as some nematodes. In fact, it is so potent that a mere trace of its presence prevents some insects from even touching plants.

MELIANTRIOL: Another feeding inhibitor, meliantriol is found in extremely low concentrations in soasis neem cake [pellet or powder / dust ], to cause insects to cease eating. The demonstration of its ability to prevent locusts chewing on crops was the first scientific proof for saosis neem's traditional use for insect control on India's crops.

SALANNIN: Yet a third triterpenoid isolated from saosis neem cake is salannin. Studies indicate that this compound also powerfully inhibits feeding, but does not influence insect molts. The migratory locust, California red scale, striped cucumber beetle, houseflies, and the Japanese beetle have been strongly deterred in both laboratory and field tests.

NIMBIN and NIMBIDIN: Two more saosis neem cake pellet components, nimbin and nimbidin, have been found to have antiviral activity. They affect potato virus X, vaccinia virus, and fowl pox virus. They could perhaps open a way to control these and other viral diseases of crops and livestock.

Nimbidin is the primary component of the bitter principles obtained when neem seeds are extracted with alcohol. It occurs in sizable quantities about 2 percent of the kernel."

Bubblemang

Azamax and Azatrol cost about $60.00+ for 16 oz. and you're getting the single compound, Azadirachtin. That's about $480.00 per gallon.

A gallon of organic neem seed oil (NeemResource.com) costs $80.00 per gallon which will give you 256 gallons of mix. The levels of Azadirachtin in the organic oils are 4,500 ppm vs. Dyna-Grow Neem Tree Seed Oil @ 1,500 ppm.

With the oil you get both a miticide as well as a fungicide. The meals provide any number of benefits to the overall health of the plant, i.e. nitrification being at the top of some lists. There is also a benefit to the mycorrhizae colonies from the compounds found in both meals.

The meals (neem & karanja) run $38.00 for 44 lbs. (20 kg.) which is a good deal. Unfortunately the shipping is the same amount to the West Coast. Still the application rate ends up being less than $1.00 to each 1 c.f. of potting soil which is pretty cheap insurance.

Neem Tree Farms in Florida carries neem tree saplings as well as a variety of plants that you might find interesting if nothing else - link and they carry oil that they press at their farm. About the same price but probably additional shipping since it's coming out of Florida.

Check out the use of neem covered urea as a fertilizer in India and China.

UP

UP: which of the triterpenoids are you interested in? I've found online distillation kits for as low as $75, but the good one cost up to $1000. If I recall correctly, all you really need is a digital hot plate with a built in magnetic stirring option (these can be expensive). Then some glass apparatus and glass beads... and patience.

I mentioned from the start, getting pure fractions is not going to happen (because of the isomers and, possible racemization from the added heat). But my buddy Jim claims neem terpenoids are easier to distill and fractionate than Cannabis.

Neem trees from FL ey? I wonder how well they would grow on the west coast... probably very well in the warmer regions. Is this an option for companion planting?

Bubblemang

Two companies in Oregon which distribute nationally (and some international orders) products that are extracts from a wide range of plants - Liberty Naturals and Mountain Rose Herbs.

A group of products that they offer include things like cilantro oil, rosemary oil, etc. So I did a little bit of looking around the web and found several references about using mineral oil as a base and plant material is added and this is allowed to sit for several weeks at which point the plant material is removed leaving an 'oil' with 'something' in it.

What I can't figure out is whether or not the mineral oil is removing the compounds in general or is limited to the ones that provide the taste and smell. Something like that.

Does this extraction process make any sense to you? How does one extract THC 'oil' (for lack of a better term)? Is there any loss of the desired agents sought after by growers?

I have an idea if this makes any sense to you based on your experience with extracting compounds from plants anyway.

On another note I happened to talk to a 'certified aromatherapist' (whatever in God's name that might mean) and I brought up lavender as a miticide and fungicide. He told me that lavender is like a few other flowering plants in that it emits aromas which attract insects and other compounds kill them off. I do know that companion planting with lavender cultivars is widely used in organic gardening and small organic farm operations, i.e the old term was 'truck farming' from yesteryear.

Let me know what you think about the mineral oil deal or any oil in general.

UP

Bubblemang said:

We seem to be saying the same thing.

Click to expand...

Yea we were, and neither one of us explained what UP was asking. I was just trying to explain what that process was about.

UP if I were u I would look up patents and see how they do it. I say because there is no one type extraction process for any one thing/substance. Without knowing exactly what u are trying to extract and the correct process for extracting that substance by itself (without contaminants) your shooting in the wind. Pure extraction involves knowing exactly what contaminants your starting product contains, then how to get rid of those contaminants without destroying the substance you are trying to isolate. In other words, If i use say ethanol (My preferred is Everclear 190proof, when extracting cannabinoids and of course other contaminants (remember them) such as terpenes, plant waxes etc. ) which is just alcohol, You have to ask will this have effect on the substance I am looking to extract? Oh yea lets not forget am I adding anymore contaminants to my extraction by contaminates in solvent I am using or If you are able to remove the solvent that was used to extract what u were using for in the first place. This is with out destroying the substance u are looking for.
And the list of possibility go on and on. U have to becarefull that when u apply this chemical to this substance u dont change the chemical structure there for making your end product something totally different from what you were actually looking for.

So look up the patents, its the easiest way unless u find someone who has worked with a similar substance and starting material.

I did look up Azadirachtin for u though heres the link it explains a couple of extractions. But even then remember about the contaminants.

Just scroll up a little bit when starting.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1m...99.9% AZADIRACHTIN EXTRACTION PROCESS&f=false

Also there is always the possibility of destroying what u want as an end product by heat, or light, etc. So like I say look that specific substance up and let others that have been there done that do the work for u. Unless u know another way or think u might know another way.

Hope that helps.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6312738.html

Another one with a bunch more complicated shit. I just added it because I saw it was talking about Biological Oxygen Demand. New one to me but over all pretty interesting, it would explain why organics and microbes would effect your DO levels.

Bubblemang said:

DER!
"After an exhaustive quest for the ultimate organic fertilizer, General Hydroponics has teamed up with the premier European organic nutrient producer BioBizz of Holland to form the joint venture GH-BB."


THIS IS WHERE GO CAME FROM... I should have posted the link to start, for the skeptics.

Click to expand...

I see.....so.....GH just payed Biobizz to put it's name on the already existing Biobizz Nute line...Nothing new as far as products go. GH probably did this because General Organics bombed. The product that you linked has been around for years and now there is a GH sticker on it......ok .......but.......General organics and BioBizz are 2 different products....Here are some links showing the 2 different products..


....and of those 2 products, the general consensus is that Biobizz is much better. These 2 products are not one in the same nor is General Hydroponics the same company as Biobizz. It was simply a good investment on the part of GH to put their name on an already existing, great product....GH obviously agrees with me on the quality of Biobizz, hence the investment. .....Peace

Mmmmasonite said:

I see.....so.....GH just payed Biobizz to put it's name on the already existing Biobizz Nute line...Nothing new as far as products go. GH probably did this because General Organics bombed. The product that you linked has been around for years and now there is a GH sticker on it......ok .......but.......General organics and BioBizz are 2 different products....Here are some links showing the 2 different products..


....and of those 2 products, the general consensus is that Biobizz is much better. These 2 products are not one in the same nor is General Hydroponics the same company as Biobizz. It was simply a good investment on the part of GH to put their name on an already existing, great product....GH obviously agrees with me on the quality of Biobizz, hence the investment. .....Peace

Click to expand...

from my research, the biobizz folk came to GH (here in CA) and they were actually partnered on a line. Same mix, partnered company. But then Larry (GH) and the BioBizz folks got into a fight, Larry kept this Biobizz recipe and started GO, then BioBizz went and tweaked their recipe to get ahead of GO. Then Larry started tweaking GO, and they are not the exact same anymore.

It's all just stories, I don't use either.

No....I don't use either....but.....just clarifying that they are now 2 completely different products.........I have seen great herb from Biobizz and heard bad things about GO......Just my experiences.....I like H&G....Peace

Rainbow mix grow and bloom:rain

U got a link? Where does it come from?

earth juice and it's way overpriced.
$18 for 5 lbs

You can get a pre mixed organic blend at any nursery for way cheaper.

Something like this perhaps?

mrbong73 said:

earth juice and it's way overpriced.
$18 for 5 lbs

You can get a pre mixed organic blend at any nursery for way cheaper.

Something like this perhaps?

Click to expand...

I dont use any pre mix .......i buy the rainbow mix nutes not soil !!! you have me lost, they sell pre mixed soil to> good way to make money off the lazy!!! THIS IS WHAT I USE for organic runs and heres a lebal of whats in it !!!

http://www.hydroponics.net/i/135198

It's a premix dry fertilizer. Same as the Earth Juice product.

They're both premix fert blends.

The Rainbow has good stuff in it and I'm sure it works well. Just overpriced IMO.