using more watts in veg and reducing watts in flowering = better yield?

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LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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@Crysmatic Because what if it cost more money to run the bigger wattage light and the little extra bud you got does not cover the cost of running extra electricity. That is the point, trying to save on electricity without sacrificing yield. (I think thats my 6th time saying that)

@Squiggly We are not nessicarily talking about lowering the wattage of a bulb. Glock said he'll use a 150w HPS with CFL in veg but in flower he'll use just the 150w HPS.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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There's no new information here. Why are we even discussing "experiments"? What is a lay man going to discover with a poor experiment, that researchers already haven't?

When it comes to cannabis and experiments like this--just about everything. There has not been extensive study of the growth patterns and needs of cannabis (at least not in the scientific sense).

What I'm suggesting is that people have put scientific practices up on a pedestal where they are relegated to "scientists only." I don't only think that isn't reality, I also think it's a shame that many people truly believe it.

As you mention at the top of your post lux can be measured to get some good values here--and if we run some experiments we might find some cool correlations. Don't sell these plants short--they are not as clear cut as you believe them to be.

Just thinking about it, if light is the fuel for manufacturing plant mass, then more light will yield more. It's not like you can create some kind of momentum by giving vegging plants lots of light, then you can just take it away and still have them produce. Less light in veg, and more light during the flower stage makes more sense to me - all other variables being constant. I'm a firm believer in maximum light, at all stages of growth.

While you make some good points here--one thing you appear to overlook is that plants do not utilize all of the light we provide them with, nor do they conduct photosynthesis at the same rate throughout the entire day. The reaction rate for photosynthesis is not without bounds--and so there are some constraints here. That is to say that more light does not necessarily mean more growth.

What's important is to remember that each cell will only do photosynthesis until it reaches a given concentration of the reaction products. This is a self-inhibited pathway in all plants. While considering that, it is also absolutely worth realizing that the active products we are interested in from the plant are light-sensitive and thus are easily degraded by light. There are good reasons (even beyond these) to find a balance here.

As much as we all might like to believe it--these things are living creatures and we will never find a "set it and forget it" value for any setup using flawed methodologies.

That science is somehow "too hard" or not worth doing in this case because we get close enough is a notion that I categorically deny and reject. I'm here to flat out tell you that we can do better--there is no argument to be had about that. The motivation for doing so should be that the only people who are willing to do it is us. No one in academia cares how to best grow marijuana--and I don't blame them, there are more important plants to worry about (food supply). Either way, as you've said the scientists have done experiments like these before--just with different plants. It matters that the plants are different in terms of what their individual "best values" will be--however, the previous statement also betrays that there are multiple sets of instructions, if you will, on how to properly do these experiments. All one has to do is look up a research paper on Arabidopsis or soy, check out the methods section, and apply the same procedure to cannabis.

Literally the only reason I bring this up is that I know the most prohibitively expensive facet of doing botanical research is the botanist. The equipment which is needed is fairly cheap. The most important part of the experiment is your ability to observe and analyze when it comes to doing botany. You do not need some $50,000 machine to get going. You can do it "in your closet" as it so happens :)

As an aside, here is a graph which might shed some light on the intensity argument (no pun intended):
Pgraphd


And a few links I found worth reading:

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Light1994Conf/1_1_Geiger/Geiger text.htm
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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the photobiology link didn't work for me. The other one looks like quite a read, but worth it.

Something you said above:

While you make some good points here--one thing you appear to overlook is that plants do not utilize all of the light we provide them with, nor do they conduct photosynthesis at the same rate throughout the entire day. The reaction rate for photosynthesis is not without bounds--and so there are some constraints here. That is to say that more light does not necessarily mean more growth.

What's important is to remember that each cell will only do photosynthesis until it reaches a given concentration of the reaction products. This is a self-inhibited pathway in all plants. While considering that, it is also absolutely worth realizing that the active products we are interested in from the plant are light-sensitive and thus are easily degraded by light. There are good reasons (even beyond these) to find a balance here.

This drives to the conceptual heart of the apparatus I'm building. The rotator brings the light by on a regular basis and gives the plants all the light they can handle- and then some. As it moves on, the plant is able to 'catch up' with the processing of all those inhibitory byproducts of photosynthesis, and is then ready when the rotator brings the light by again.

The trick is twofold; one is to intermittently blast the plants with more light than they could handle continuously, by mounting the open bulb in an adjust-a-wing just 15-18" above a broad, flat and level canopy. The rotator moves the light at a stately, but continuous pace of 4" per second or so, or about 3 minutes per complete revolution.

Part two is that the light level, or PPK never falls below about 50% of a maximum continuous light saturation level, which is still much higher than the compensation lavel, or level at which plants only make enough energy to sustain themselves, without any left over for growth or other production. This gives the plant a chance to process that which it produced under the brightest intensity and then continue until the beam of high intensity light comes around again.

Other benefits include a continuously shifting light pattern that penetrates further into the canopy, effectively mitigating the effects of leaf shading and the elimination of a 'hotspot' area directly under the light, where light and heat levels are often so high the plants simply can't handle it. In fact, the elimination of this thermal and light intensity gradient may explain why this system produces more consistent yield results across the entire canopy than traditional stationary lighting does.
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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Believe the pros.
Yeah, just be careful about the ones who want you to trade your money for their (mostly pseudo) sciency products. More than a few of those in this here gig, eh?

Just thinking about it, if light is the fuel for manufacturing plant mass, then more light will yield more. It's not like you can create some kind of momentum by giving vegging plants lots of light, then you can just take it away and still have them produce. Less light in veg, and more light during the flower stage makes more sense to me - all other variables being constant. I'm a firm believer in maximum light, at all stages of growth.

No offense to the discussion, but other than this I just don't get the rest of the thread at all. Growing in the shade?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Yeah, just be careful about the ones who want you to trade your money for their (mostly pseudo) sciency products. More than a few of those in this here gig, eh?



No offense to the discussion, but other than this I just don't get the rest of the thread at all. Growing in the shade?


The idea is to save money (on electricity) without sacrificing yield, and secondarily to protect the light-sensitive THC and terpenes by reducing light as much as possible (again without sacrificing yield).

It seems there are some here who doubt that there is anything to be gained by doing this carefully and for understanding. I argue that there is place where the forces balance each other out.

The way biological systems work pretty much guarantees this. Now I won't hypothesize that doing this will ultimately save money--but I do believe it will lead to happier plants.

There is almost no question that asking these types of questions is useful though--else we'd have never asked them as a society about corn, wheat, soy, etc. Academia cares about those crops--and we need, in my opinion, to make it our business to care about this one.

All I'm saying is that the higher understanding of biology we've come to expect to be spoon fed to us by scientists is not coming as it regards cannabis. That understanding will come from this community or another one like it--at least for the time being. My only argument is that we do not have to wait for men in lab coats to do it for us. The instructions are available (and really not difficult to understand), and the equipment is cheap.

I suppose my question really is:

Why should we not be doing this?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Okay, Squiggly, you made your point, at least with me! So I'm picking up that gauntlet you're throwing down, and so I ask you; help me set up a scientifically valid and meaningful comparison between the usual stationary lighting regime and the light rotator system I've been describing...?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Okay, Squiggly, you made your point, at least with me! So I'm picking up that gauntlet you're throwing down, and so I ask you; help me set up a scientifically valid and meaningful comparison between the usual stationary lighting regime and the light rotator system I've been describing...?

I'm happy to do this beginning on the 14th--as it stands now I'm in the middle of finals week (and a week of wrapping up research to follow that). I just got back from a wedding (I am hungover) and I've got meetings and study groups coming out of my ears for the next week. I've also just crashed my car on the 28th and am having to deal with that (which is a huge pain in the ass because I crashed it out of town and it is not drive-able).

THCFarmer for the moment is serving a need for relaxation that I have--I'm spending my free time here trying to calm the eff down and take a load off. I really like to talk about science in my free time because I believe it is important--really really important--that we get America back in line with the rest of the world when it comes to education about, and hunger for, science.

That said, actually doing science is not the funnest of things always--it's sort of my job at this point and nobody likes work all the time :)

When a topic really interests me I'm quick to read about it on my own--but answering this question the best way is going to cross the divide from chemistry (which really really interests me personally) to physics (which I fucking loathe).

As it goes to the concepts, I understand that the points I (and you) have been making are valid--but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of it, I'm going to have to do a bit of hard reading and thinking before I can give you an answer that I'll really be comfortable with--this is something best left for the summer. I have to worry about the physics I'm accountable for on my final Thursday first and foremost if I'm going to be doing that type of reading.
 
Illmind

Illmind

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I dont care if romney planned to legalize weed if elected i still wouldnt vote for em. Whoever is please do yourself a favor and look at what type of person he is. Hes an opporunist. He spent almost 80mill to get wheres he's at that was as of last month. Most amount spent already on any election. Whats that tell u already? Not only that but he obviously is one of those rich ppl who gets tons of breaks on taxes tbrough loopholes and is greedy. Thag guy has some ideas but i fewr they are for tge good of him and his interests only. Obam is his own person answers to nobody and thats why he is hated so bad. Hence why they are spending tons of money to get control back so they can have another puppet that is compliant with their needs so they can get even richer.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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I dont care if romney planned to legalize weed if elected i still wouldnt vote for em. Whoever is please do yourself a favor and look at what type of person he is. Hes an opporunist. He spent almost 80mill to get wheres he's at that was as of last month. Most amount spent already on any election. Whats that tell u already? Not only that but he obviously is one of those rich ppl who gets tons of breaks on taxes tbrough loopholes and is greedy. Thag guy has some ideas but i fewr they are for tge good of him and his interests only. Obam is his own person answers to nobody and thats why he is hated so bad. Hence why they are spending tons of money to get control back so they can have another puppet that is compliant with their needs so they can get even richer.



Did I miss something?? Who said anything about politics?? Why are you talking about Mitt Romney and Barrack Obama??
 
squiggly

squiggly

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For what it's worth I agree with most of what he said :)
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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For what it's worth I agree with most of what he said :)


I am not saying he is wrong or right, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I don't talk about politics because its a never ending argument and both sides always think they are right. I believe 99% of politicians are hypocrites and say what they have to just to get in office. I don't have a problem with what he said I am just curious as why he started talking politics on this thread when nobody mentioned it, it just seems like a random subject to bring up out of the blue like that.
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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I'm curious to see where that quality/yield threshold ends up. There's an article somewhere, never saw the source, could be bs pseudoscience, that claims varying cannaboid profiles based on altitude and uv light presence. Claim was that cbd to thc ratios in landrace increase with latitude/uv (inversely, high thc sativas near equator etc).

Wavelengths stimulating carotenoid processes would likely be yet another variable. As for terpenoids, surely lots there too before even considering degradation. I think indoor lighting is currently so limited that you're just gonna see lower yields and potentially lower quality. Unless it becomes a micro-grow but that's not what youre after is it? Anybody planning to use dimmers as part of this experiment? (hope not)
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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El Cerebro: I mean professional growers/farmers. I know all about nute manufacturers :) It's essential to know which people to trust. Usually the guys with letters after their name, and no hot chicks or hummers.

There's a strange fallacy that cannabis is somehow not a plant, not made from the same material, or uses the same resources, etc. It has a particular metabolic pathway that makes THC. There have been studies on cannabis. Also look for papers on hops - a close cousin. Regardless, a common greenhouse operator can go into any pot garden and improve its operation, productivity, plant health etc. It's not necessary to "know" what pot likes, as long as you can identify/deduce its needs, and provide them. Basic gardening skills, and problem solving. There are no short cuts, no secrets, no magic bullet.

It's interesting that anyone would argue that an ounce of weed isn't worth $20 of electricity (worst case scenario). Are you looking to get something for nothing? A 250W lamp has the potential to yield 67% more than an 150w - all other things being equal. What does 100g of weed go for? I don't believe you'll ever get close to 250 g with a 150w lamp.

squiggly: As an engineer I appreciate the scientific method. I also know that you need large numbers of plants to run valid statistical analysis - so your closet is useless...unless it's a really big closet :) I didn't want to get into the minutiae. By "max" light, I was referring to ~2000 umol, which seems to be an upper limit for cannabis. There is enough information out there on ideal parameters - and the tools to test these parameters aren't terribly expensive.
 
glockdoc

glockdoc

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thanks for the link!
and crysmatic good point with the great grow vs decent grow. i like that perspective.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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El Cerebro: I mean professional growers/farmers. I know all about nute manufacturers :) It's essential to know which people to trust. Usually the guys with letters after their name, and no hot chicks or hummers.

There's a strange fallacy that cannabis is somehow not a plant, not made from the same material, or uses the same resources, etc. It has a particular metabolic pathway that makes THC. There have been studies on cannabis. Also look for papers on hops - a close cousin. Regardless, a common greenhouse operator can go into any pot garden and improve its operation, productivity, plant health etc. It's not necessary to "know" what pot likes, as long as you can identify/deduce its needs, and provide them. Basic gardening skills, and problem solving. There are no short cuts, no secrets, no magic bullet.

It's interesting that anyone would argue that an ounce of weed isn't worth $20 of electricity (worst case scenario). Are you looking to get something for nothing? A 250W lamp has the potential to yield 67% more than an 150w - all other things being equal. What does 100g of weed go for? I don't believe you'll ever get close to 250 g with a 150w lamp.

squiggly: As an engineer I appreciate the scientific method. I also know that you need large numbers of plants to run valid statistical analysis - so your closet is useless...unless it's a really big closet :) I didn't want to get into the minutiae. By "max" light, I was referring to ~2000 umol, which seems to be an upper limit for cannabis. There is enough information out there on ideal parameters - and the tools to test these parameters aren't terribly expensive.



You said a 250w can yield 67% more than a 150w....but based on you and squiggly plants don't respond to watts. If you go back to the 1st page of this thread I said "I think its possible if you veg longer when reducing watts in flower but if its the same veg time, strain, and all other factors the exact same I don't see how less watts gives you more yield."

Now that was an answer to the title of this thread. Thats basically the point I was trying to make this whole time because a couple people said "plants don't respond to watts and we should be talking about intensity." Now you basically said the higher wattage light produces more bud which in turn obviously means its more "intense". That is what I've been saying during this entire thread but you and squiggly kept dissagreeing with me then changing the subject and talking about scientific photons and shit. You said it with your own words, the higher watts, the more buds. Thanx
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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113
Right.. of course Crys, I just meant the salespeople. Speaking of nutes, I'm still calculating ppms on a ratty notepad with your numbers from the cheap alts thread, also columns comparing to Cap, DW, Jack's Hydro, etc. Wish I could eat as cheap as I feed my girls..
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

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^That

I suggest that you guys are really making a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to the difficulty of using these measurements rather than wattage. To my mind this is just making it harder on yourself (to use wattages) if you actually give a crap about getting the right answer.

If you think about it getting the right answer in this case is probably a helluva lot more profitable than avoiding a $20 expenditure and maybe 15-30 minutes of reading to see how to measure light effectively for botany.

Again the point I'm making is that the community has convinced itself that doing proper science is too hard or expensive when that really couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to botany.

Most of the quantities you need to measure you can measure with equipment which costs under $150 for all of it (and that's for even some of the more obscure measurements).

The only real expensive thing in this science is all of the tissue culture stuff--which of course I don't expect us as a community to get into.

These other things though mostly boil down to laziness and/or resistance to change.

Change is good, especially when it's better. You've all already agreed that from a scientific standpoint I make good sense. Now if we want to get into a value judgment about that fact over $20 I suppose that's valid depending on your various financial situations--but it doesn't seem like a huge stretch given the general cost of this hobby of ours.
To be more specific about why most people can't/don't do a good experiment is usually because they can't afford the expensive equipment/space/electricity/legal protection of carrying out a good experiment that has a control to test against and a big enough sample from each to make your results more than just the natural variance(same batch of clones w/ the same mother can have slightly different vigor/traits) of plants. Most side by sides lack both, I've been guilty of doing poor science, I simply can't afford the extra space and electricity needed atm. I wish I had the money for more lights/space/equipment, I'd love to be able to do proper experiments. Every time I see squiggly's avatar I think of walter white in a lab, lol.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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To be more specific about why most people can't/don't do a good experiment is usually because they can't afford the expensive equipment/space/electricity/legal protection of carrying out a good experiment that has a control to test against and a big enough sample from each to make your results more than just the natural variance(same batch of clones w/ the same mother can have slightly different vigor/traits) of plants. Most side by sides lack both, I've been guilty of doing poor science, I simply can't afford the extra space and electricity needed atm. I wish I had the money for more lights/space/equipment, I'd love to be able to do proper experiments. Every time I see squiggly's avatar I think of walter white in a lab, lol.

These are actually some good points--with the exception of equipment, it's not a steep cost. In terms of sample size though--you are correct. I still believe a small set of good data is better than a huge set of bad data which is what we have now (no offense meant to anyone) the data isn't useless and it follows the proper trendline--it's a close approximation.

That's definitely good enough for now, but we can definitely do better--even if its only bit by bit.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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If we were trying to emulate nature we would not be growing inside at all...

Its all about light intensity.. just enough to make the plants as happy as possible. At some point you will bleach your tops. That's when you record that height and back off a few inches on the flip (or raise the lights) until you find the sweet spot for the strain you are running. Light intensity is very strain specific.

A general rule: More footcandles = heavier tops.

IMHO, I am not sure this experiment is necessary. This is like an experiment where we top a plant to see if it creates more than one terminal shoot. Been there, done that.

Also, food for thought:

The notorious fatman insists on running multiple 250's right on top of the plants as opposed to a 1k. The reason is they stay cooler, so you can get them closer (same lumens, less heat stress, more coverage for the same amps)...
 
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