A potential danger of silica u must be aware of.

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azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I posted on the drywall thread about this topic of Silica I'd like to throw out there. Fine silica powder is a health hazard I am aware of outside of cultivation, and think it may bridge over to being a potential airborne contaminant from it's liquid form by way of cleaning towels and equipment. I must give props to Hempy upon reading his thread he states to mix pearlite and vermiculite wet, this is the reason we should not mix volcanic material in our homes unless it is wet. But that is just my opinion, I practically eat this stuff and take my own risks, but do protect my family from my hobbies.

As a flintknapper (a person who makes arrowheads) I am aware of the dangers of (fine airborn) silica in a home and you should be aware as well. This isn't anything new, it's been know for a very long time, those making gunflints during the founding of our country had very short lives from a breathing problem called silicosis. google it with flintknapping. Those that flintknapp outside do not have the problem, hell I get pleanty on my cloths but we all know to dust off outside, you will know if you have it on you because you will be itchy..

When manufacturing Arrowheads a fine microscopic dust is expelled into the air. you would have to see it in time laps photography, but the traces of the explosion from the release of the flake is present on the material..

My preference is obsidian and it is the most dangerous. Now how this relates to MMJ cultivation is that IMHO silica that is in liquid form is the fine material. My belief is when you dry out you rez, or you medium, it will become dislodged and airborn once it is not wet.

The Flintknappers make it aware to all that are taught to never knapp indoors because of silicosis. With that said I still use silica, but I take cautions to dispose of my towels when wiping out my Rez, I do not believe it it would be present in the flowers, but would like to be corrected if I'm wrong. If that is the case I'm done using it.

We are exposed to silica all the time we just dont want the finest stuff stacking up in our houses, and we have no way of getting rid of it when it goes into our lungs, just letting you know that perhaps as an added safety measure you should throw out towels used when cleaning as I do..
 
K

kolah

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Good stuff! thanks.

I think silica is also in cement, mortar mix, stucco, grout, etc.

I'd love to see some pictures of your arrowheads. It truly is an art.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Wow I forgot I posted this until I seen a like on my profile page. guess that must have been some damn good smoke : ) Thanks guys, I just made a burrial point a couple days ago for my nephew, cant show any pics of those type of points but will be happy to show a few, i'm obviously not trying to sell anything. As for the silica I did comment on another thread about someone follier feeding silica, I do think that would be a no no as it would be stuck to the trics and inhaled directly into the lungs.

I'm what is called an aboriginal knapper, Most knappers today are copper knappers, nothing against them the best in the world are my copper bopper friends lol. however I use only stone and antler to create my points, and only the old way, tools, pitch glues to make my knife handles. The 3rd point is basalt, some real hard stuff. When most people see these points they automatically think of native Americans, and though I have a foot in that culture, these points were made by every culture around the world, it's even referenced 3 times in the bible. I bet a lot of weed was cut by obsidian and flint. The plant fibers work great for hafting atl atl darts as well.
 
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azmmjadvocates

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flintknapping... damn... I only do the napping part.
You made me think of a funny story, I have a flintknapping buddy who was TDY in Iraq and all of his communications would get screened due to the sensitive position he was in. I sent him an email stating how us guys really missed him when we were all knapping together after cooking up some rock. lol I laid it on pretty thick, that was better than sending a blow up doll or subscription to playgirl lol.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I was looking up at the sky tonight I watched a metiorite burn into the horizon, it reminded me of my adopted grandfater who's name I can't say only that he was a chief of the Northern Aztec Tribe, I didn't even know that until after his death which demonstrates how humble of a man he was.

During the 3 months each year, up until he nolonger came, he helped me to become a better knapper, and in that some things bridge over to not just cannabis but other plants for man as well.

Those meteorites, sparking stories, legends told from father to a son, uncle to a nephew, back through time, science now has a name for what could not be seen falling from the meteorites as they flew by. That star dust is Ammonium nitrate falling to the earth, but how did our ancestors know that the building blocks for plants on earth came from the stars?

Once that building block of life settles on the land, enzymes start working to break it down into another form of nitrogen, the form I prefer.

So that led me to think of Obsidian, so revered by the aztec, the symbol of water. The turtle a symbol of water as well. How did the Aztec and other ancient ancestors know obsidian is part water? So this poses a question about silica, perhaps I'm just high lol but I don't think all silicates are all the same to plants? Not saying they are harmful, but I wonder if Obsidian is more effective? I don't have an opinion one way or another.


Obsidian is the sharpest thing known to man, window glass is not because it is not as flexible and strong as volcanic glass, certain things also need to happen during an eruption for obsidian to be created or it just turns into Ryolite or basalt.. If you were to look under magnified time laps photography you would see an explosion of obsidians silica dust when creating a spawl (mullusk shaped large flake struck from a core, to make arrowheads out of) you would see it flex and bend like a wing of an airplane.

If you look at a spawl it resembles a mollusk shell, when you start sculpting (the first technical artistic sculpture man may have done) that down flake by flake creating an arrowhead. If you were to pick up and examine the smaller flakes on the ground you would see they are smaller and smaller mollusk shells, Scientists call them bulbous fractures or concoidial fractures.

So this leads to my question of those microscopic mollusk shells that you can no longer see, now light enough floating in the air to eventually settle down like the space dust. So I wonder if obsidian is preferred by Cannabis, and if different sources of silica matter, kinda like purity of salts.
 
tweedy

tweedy

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I was looking up at the sky tonight I watched a metiorite burn into the horizon, it reminded me of my adopted grandfater who's name I can't say only that he was a chief of the Northern Aztec Tribe, I didn't even know that until after his death which demonstrates how humble of a man he was.

During the 3 months each year, up until he nolonger came, he helped me to become a better knapper, and in that some things bridge over to not just cannabis but other plants for man as well.

Those meteorites, sparking stories, legends told from father to a son, uncle to a nephew, back through time, science now has a name for what could not be seen falling from the meteorites as they flew by. That star dust is Ammonium nitrate falling to the earth, but how did our ancestors know that the building blocks for plants on earth came from the stars?

Once that building block of life settles on the land, enzymes start working to break it down into another form of nitrogen, the form I prefer.

So that led me to think of Obsidian, so revered by the aztec, the symbol of water. The turtle a symbol of water as well. How did the Aztec and other ancient ancestors know obsidian is part water? So this poses a question about silica, perhaps I'm just high lol but I don't think all silicates are all the same to plants? Not saying they are harmful, but I wonder if Obsidian is more effective? I don't have an opinion one way or another.


Obsidian is the sharpest thing known to man, window glass is not because it is not as flexible and strong as volcanic glass, certain things also need to happen during an eruption for obsidian to be created or it just turns into Ryolite or basalt.. If you were to look under magnified time laps photography you would see an explosion of obsidians silica dust when creating a spawl (mullusk shaped large flake struck from a core, to make arrowheads out of) you would see it flex and bend like a wing of an airplane.

If you look at a spawl it resembles a mollusk shell, when you start sculpting (the first technical artistic sculpture man may have done) that down flake by flake creating an arrowhead. If you were to pick up and examine the smaller flakes on the ground you would see they are smaller and smaller mollusk shells, Scientists call them bulbous fractures or concoidial fractures.

So this leads to my question of those microscopic mollusk shells that you can no longer see, now light enough floating in the air to eventually settle down like the space dust. So I wonder if obsidian is preferred by Cannabis, and if different sources of silica matter, kinda like purity of salts.

I can't obviously tell you whether or not you're right or even on the right track with your thinking but I can tell you that it's this forward and outside of the box thinking that reminds me of Michael Pollen in Botany of Desire saying that herb growers are some of the best gardeners of our generation.

It always makes me happy to see someone trying something new.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I can't obviously tell you whether or not you're right or even on the right track with your thinking but I can tell you that it's this forward and outside of the box thinking that reminds me of Michael Pollen in Botany of Desire saying that herb growers are some of the best gardeners of our generation. It always makes me happy to see someone trying something new.

Lol, every time I see a notification of a comment to one of my posts, I think, Oh shit what did I write lol.
That is a book still on my need to read list, I don't really read many books, mostly university research and now forums like this.

We certainly have the benefits of the plant to help us think outside the box, and I for one believe the plant was recognized by aboriginal man for doing that. All the clay hash pipes in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, hash pipes just seem to be discovered wherever knowledge and thinking outside the box is. There is a lyric in a collective soul song "knowledge is wrapped in blankest on the street" My learning to flintknapp was taught from stories, comparisons to mullusk shells, mountain tops, with ridges running down them, pressure and time forcing rock slides ect.

In the 90's I was utilizing the internet resources of T1 coming about to research all sorts of things I was into, low and behold I discovered many knappers almost all of them copper, but they spoke a different language than I. I could not relate to what they were saying and they couldn't to me, they were speaking in terms of Science as their art form was learned through University books studying what native people did. So I had to learn their language. There is something lost in that, I'm a hydro guy, it's what I grew up with, but I believe thinking outside the box or not focusing on the box has great value. Some would call me a Fattie fan (derogatory?), and I guess I am, not that I follow everything he recommend but I like to learn sound properties of things. Fatman comes from strictly a scientific point of view, I have room to hear others views as well.

So little is written about native Americans use of this plant, most think it was imported strictly by our founding fathers and settlers from other places, but it was used by many tribes previous to them setting foot on this continent, Id imagine arriving by air, not from a meteorite but birds depositing the seeds here with their rich poop, a gift to man wherever he goes. In their verbal history, the Iroquoi medicine man, (0r woman in the other 500 different US tribes) would prescribe it to someone who was cured by him, but didn't believe he was lol.. There is knowledge wrapped in indian blankets as well.

Take for instance the Gushi discovery a Straight line distance from Pakistan Indan boarder, hindu kush region to Gushi discovery is 1132 miles, as the crow flies, not man walking. 3000 years ago aboriginal man was growing High THC content cannabis for medicinal and spiritual use. Birds redistributed the plants just as effectively as man. This place "1553 miles from any ocean and located in the Ayding Lake basin, the second lowest spot on Earth after the Dead Sea" It's ARID does that mean it only grows in Arid places, nope, its as versatile as man. I have a foot in two places, my father is a physicist who has letters from the likes of Hopkins. In South Dakota he would drag me with him to the school of minds and technology doing testing in deep mines with atomic physics experimentation relating to time. I'd venture to the Archeology dept.

When I flintknapp, Ravens come in to watch, the sound of the antler generating a flake on the obsidian makes a clicking sound, not the same sound as copper tools make. Ravens have a relationship with man hunting, he is the only bird to silently follow a hunter so as not to spook the prey. I believe that sound is genetically imprinted into the birds, there is that scientific reasoning, others think they come to watch me knapp for other reasons.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I dont know if giving MMJ plants high levels of Silica is good or bad in the long term or the effects of differing silica, IDK. An example is that plants are adapting to higher Co2 environmental levels by decreasing their stomata.

So the question I ask myself is that if we keep increasing Co2, silica, ect. by artificial means to increase yealds, are we, in the long run, doing harm to plant genetics? Another outside of the box thinking is that plants adapt genetically which I have always had the opinion. (ScienceDaily (Jan. 31, 2011) ā€” A Purdue University scientist has found genetic evidence of how some plants adapt to live in unfavorable conditions, a finding he believes could one day be used to help food crops survive in new or changing environments.)

The plants are imprinting environmental information to genetics for some reason, we think they love the extra CO2, but do they? Same with DO, plants need relatively low DO but if we were able to do inject it in an IV, we would lol.. I'm a hydro guy but I see the value in what Organic farmers do in keeping things traditional, and those thinking outside the box, it just needs to stay safe. I also see the value in Scientific manipulations, but at what cost to the gene pool in the long term?
 
We Solidarity

We Solidarity

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I dont know if giving MMJ plants high levels of Silica is good or bad in the long term or the effects of differing silica, IDK. An example is that plants are adapting to higher Co2 environmental levels by decreasing their stomata.

So the question I ask myself is that if we keep increasing Co2, silica, ect. by artificial means to increase yealds, are we, in the long run, doing harm to plant genetics? Another outside of the box thinking is that plants adapt genetically which I have always had the opinion. (ScienceDaily (Jan. 31, 2011) ā€” A Purdue University scientist has found genetic evidence of how some plants adapt to live in unfavorable conditions, a finding he believes could one day be used to help food crops survive in new or changing environments.)

The plants are imprinting environmental information to genetics for some reason, we think they love the extra CO2, but do they? Same with DO, plants need relatively low DO but if we were able to do inject it in an IV, we would lol.. I'm a hydro guy but I see the value in what Organic farmers do in keeping things traditional, and those thinking outside the box, it just needs to stay safe. I also see the value in Scientific manipulations, but at what cost to the gene pool in the long term?


AWESOME thoughts. And you're absolutely right. we're altering the gene pool by breeding plants in indoor environments, truly a botany of desire (i fucking love that book, i've bought so many copies b/c i keep giving it away...)

but yeah, i don't see why that's a bad thing! we're altering the gene pool for selection that suits US and OUR needs with the plant - it's evolving based on what we want. We've taken it out of a natural environment and if it goes back to a natural environment, it will naturally re-adapt. It's a perennial weed in nature, it evolves fast and is a hardy adapter. I've seen seeds of plants generations into an indoor breeding project pump it so much harder outdoors than established genetics that have been around...I doubt giving optimal co2 amounts or increased silica amounts indoors will do anything but allow amazing sexual health (big flowers) and better genetic diversity b/c of the comfortable conditions. Especially if you're going organic.

also regarding silica - i've seen pictures somewhere (i think on aptus website) of the cell walls of plants grown in silica enriched soil vs a control, they were at least five times thicker than the non-enriched control. I've been using silica mainly as a pathogen preventative and it's definitely playing it's role - as well as giving me THICK and heavy stems and juicy leathery leaves...which i also like :)
it hasn't altered the taste at all but if you don't flush right with it it definitely holds in alot more salts, and you'll have some harsh shit that doesn't ever ash out. On the contrary, too much silica and a good flush and the bowl burns SUPER fast. (I think lots of silica would pull lots of moisture out, making drier bud) still smooth and flavorful, just a third the amount of full tokes than something with a fucked up flush.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Good stuff! thanks.

I think silica is also in cement, mortar mix, stucco, grout, etc.

I'd love to see some pictures of your arrowheads. It truly is an art.
You know Kola I still wonder what kinda shit china was putting in their drywall that eats pictures and wiring. lol, need to ph that shit LMAO Hell I think they are trying to kill us along with our pets and offgassing our plants too lol..
 
squiggly

squiggly

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The type of silica that is damaging to the lungs is SiO2, this is essentially what sand is made of--and diatomaceous earth is also made of this primarily.

This stuff can be itchy and cause all kinds of respiratory issues--because it is is incredibly sharp, and the particle size is incredibly small.

The liquid form of SiO2 is SOLUBLE, which SiO2 is not (sand doesn't dissolve)--and so they are in different chemical states. Most soluble silica compounds are silicon hydroxides.

These cannot be transferred into the air unless their chemical forms are changed--which is unlikely to happen in your res or watering pot.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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AWESOME thoughts. And you're absolutely right. we're altering the gene pool by breeding plants in indoor environments, truly a botany of desire (i fucking love that book, i've bought so many copies b/c i keep giving it away...)

I doubt giving optimal co2 amounts or increased silica amounts indoors will do anything but allow amazing sexual health (big flowers) and better genetic diversity b/c of the comfortable conditions. Especially if you're going organic..


I really see the importance of having some wild cannabis everywhere or a lot of outdoor grows for seeding, I can certainly make some outdoor varieties conform to indoor hydro, easier than visa versa. If you look at the article and others drawing the same conclusion, it seems not all that alarming a 35% decrease in stoma over a 150 years, but that is at much lower C02 concentrations than we a pumping into our grows. So could we conclude that we should be seeding our breed stock for hydro from outdoor grows as opposed to indoor? Or back and forth?

There may be one day when weve pumped them up so much with Co2 and they have lost enough stoma that 1500ppm will be just the norm and yealds will diminish. lol but by that time we all may be dead from the coming ice age anyway lol...
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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The type of silica that is damaging to the lungs is SiO2, this is essentially what sand is made of--and diatomaceous earth is also made of this primarily.

This stuff can be itchy and cause all kinds of respiratory issues--because it is is incredibly sharp, and the particle size is incredibly small.

The liquid form of SiO2 is SOLUBLE, which SiO2 is not (sand doesn't dissolve)--and so they are in different chemical states. Most soluble silica compounds are silicon hydroxides.

These cannot be transferred into the air unless their chemical forms are changed--which is unlikely to happen in your res or watering pot.
Thanks for the insight Squiggly,


Changes as in evaporation on the side of the bottle, rags ect? How does a plant uptake silica in nature without some Hydroxodes?

Interesting, so the hydroxide will not evaporate leaving behind silica? how many microns does obsidian go down to, i cant remember but you need a electron microsocpe to see the end of a blade, making it the sharpest thing known to man.


http://www.ehow.com/how_6572721_make-sodium-silicate-silica.html

Also as I stated about obsidian, as all silicates are not the same, it's powder is so fine it will go through your protective mask.. So, if it becomes so fine would it not be able to be uptaken or simply push it's way through the plant walls the way it pushes it's way into our poors?

I'll check up on some university hydro research I was reading the other day about silica and plan uptake.

You've got me thinking now, what if in nature it collects around the base of the plant from water runoff or simply passes through floating on air during gas exchange? Think about the charge it would stick to water vapor then fall as rain striking the plant, working it's way through, creating scar tissue, strengthening the plant walls.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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So if I can make sodium silicate from silica, that wouldn't be to good because it was a sodium source (I was just using it as an example that it was made from silica), wouldn't I be able to make my own silicon hydroxide out of silica in the same manner, and throw in some potash to boot? I see a business venture here squiggley, you and I could become the next AN of silica lol Then we could RULE THE WORLD, Damn I'm probably Pinky and you the Brain. lol Thats who I always think of when I see your avitar, is pinky and the brain. lol
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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So since Obsidian has a lot of water in it as I stated before and I think it is a hydrated oxide?, potash is as well?, Wouldn't that mean that if obsidian became so small that it did not float on top of water, but went with the flow so to speak, wouldn't it become a silica that would at least come in contact with roots, it certainly wouldn't have a problem with passing through HP aero or pumps.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Thanks for the insight Squiggly,


Changes as in evaporation on the side of the bottle, rags ect? How does a plant uptake silica in nature without some Hydroxodes?

It's taken up in an ionic (non-elemental) state, as is everything. The plant can use sodium ions for instance (Na+) but can't take up Sodium metal Na (a.k.a. elemental sodium). The difference has to do with how many electrons are associated with the atom (also known as oxidation state).

An oxide like SiO2 (the hurty kind) usually forms when an element in its neutral, or elemental, state--is left to sit and react with air (which has oxygen and water dissolved in it).

Rust is oxidized iron--this is a good example (although it is usually hydrated).

Interesting, so the hydroxide will not evaporate leaving behind silica? how many microns does obsidian go down to, i cant remember but you need a electron microsocpe to see the end of a blade, making it the sharpest thing known to man.

Oh it'll leave silica alright--it's just not the irritating sharp kind that we're concerned about. The solids will have different crystal structures--because one will be precipitating out of a solvent (water) whereas the other was never soluble in the first place.

Also, I don't know that you've got that precisely true--the electron microscope itself likely possesses the sharpest tip known to man (as many of them go down to a single atom at the tip).

http://www.ehow.com/how_6572721_make-sodium-silicate-silica.html

Also as I stated about obsidian, as all silicates are not the same, it's powder is so fine it will go through your protective mask.. So, if it becomes so fine would it not be able to be uptaken or simply push it's way through the plant walls the way it pushes it's way into our poors?

You're on the right track--but the difference is in particle size as you referenced before. They'll also have different molecular weights and will float around differently--lots of differences to be had when your atoms are connected up differently.

The nasty kind is a product of pulverization of a very hard solid. The other is more likely to have the consistency of flour and have almost no tendency to form such a hard solid (i.e. you couldn't make a rock out of the stuff--but you can make one out of siO2).

I'll check up on some university hydro research I was reading the other day about silica and plan uptake.

You've got me thinking now, what if in nature it collects around the base of the plant from water runoff or simply passes through floating on air during gas exchange? Think about the charge it would stick to water vapor then fall as rain striking the plant, working it's way through, creating scar tissue, strengthening the plant walls.

I think that's a bit far-fetched for now, but who knows is always the best position to take in science when you're convinced that no one does.

So if I can make sodium silicate from silica, that wouldn't be to good because it was a sodium source (I was just using it as an example that it was made from silica), wouldn't I be able to make my own silicon hydroxide out of silica in the same manner, and throw in some potash to boot? I see a business venture here squiggley, you and I could become the next AN of silica lol Then we could RULE THE WORLD, Damn I'm probably Pinky and you the Brain. lol Thats who I always think of when I see your avitar, is pinky and the brain. lol

Well, silicon is a dickhead element. We really understand it very poorly--it is the subject of much research. So more than likely we'd mix a bunch of crap and precipitate alot of it and piss a bunch of people off.

Sodium sillicate likes to form pastes--probably not the best choice. It forms silicic acid in acidic conditions--which, when heated, produces silica gel (a dessicant). This shit is weird man.


Silicon hydroxides are formed by passing water vapor over SiO2 at about 800deg Celsius, so if you can pump that kind of heat--yes you can produce this stuff.

I feel like there's got to be an organic way, but I'm unsure of what that is exactly-- so I can't help there except to say that there almost definitely is one (and that it's easier).
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Thanks Squiggly, I think we can all,,,,ummm,, all of you feel a bit safer now. lol I'll still be breathing it in, but moderation and old time safety precauthions. So we settled the safety side of using potassium silicate, basically don't sweat it.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Also, I don't know that you've got that precisely true--the electron microscope itself likely possesses the sharpest tip known to man (as many of them go down to a single atom at the tip).

Yeah your right about the electron microscope, but a blade made of obsidian is so small and still has room to fracture even farther IMHO.

Source:http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-161956.html

jhguth
Jan12-12, 06:25 PM
Hello there,

In my biophysics research days at UC Berkeley, I was trained to use a transmission electron microscope and to prepare biological specimens for that technique. The ultramicrotome is the thinnest sectioning instrument that I have used, producing ultrathin sections of epoxy-embedded cellular microstructures that are only a few molecules thick. It can cut even down to a single molecule thick though that was too thin for our purposes. It used either commercially produced diamond knives which lasted a long time but were horrendously expensive or we could prepare our own glass knives with a special tool used to break thick glass pieces in a predetermined way. Those edges were actually the sharpest that could be made but would have a limited lifespan before needing replacement. My answer to you is that glass actually fractures conchoidally into the sharpest edges around.
danwood
Feb8-12, 09:23 PM
I would guess Obsidian. Surgical knives made of this high carbon material can produce an edge as sharp as 3 nanometer - and still not show any serration!
turbo
Feb9-12, 01:40 AM
Obsidian rules. You can try all kinds of tricks with glass/metal, etc, but still there are some natural materials that just can't be equaled.



Perhaps that natural way into a plant is by physics and not chemistry? of course for safety reasons I doubt we would not want to experiment in home, ill say one thing i'm going to start making me some tumbled obsidian to try in buckets as medium, it will be beautiful as well. You should see obsidian glistening when wet. I've been thinking of it for a while looking at piles that scientists call Debatage, it aint trash to me. One last funny story. I don't dump debatage in trash like copper knappers for reasons of tradition.

I bury it or leave it where I knapp, well my last residence I owned, I disclosed to them that I burred obsidian, flint, basalt, navoculite, and other knapables in the yard as I was a knapper. Well they just loved to hear that, well lets just say they will have a hard time on a tiller when they hit some of those pits lol.. One mans debatage is another mans MJ medium lol
 
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