120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

[jfizzle2cmu]

So JK, ur advocating no air in between the buckets? 3.5 gallon sitting in a 6 gallon w the nute solution hitting the bottom of the top bucket? I'm trying to figure out the nuances of these different buckets. Did u switch from aero bcuz dwc supports beneficials and aero doesn't? I ran dwc/aero combo, then straight aero my first two grows. Fucked up the straight aero in flush, so now looking to build a sys w no sprayers.

 

[ttystikk]

So JK, ur advocating no air in between the buckets? 3.5 gallon sitting in a 6 gallon w the nute solution hitting the bottom of the top bucket? I'm trying to figure out the nuances of these different buckets. Did u switch from aero bcuz dwc supports beneficials and aero doesn't? I ran dwc/aero combo, then straight aero my first two grows. Fucked up the straight aero in flush, so now looking to build a sys w no sprayers.

Building a robust and fault tolerant hydroponic system is my main goal, and to reach it I run an RDWC in 5 gallon buckets, 1" lines between them, 8"netpot bucket lid and a top drip irrigation system on a timer that uses the RDWC water. For substrate I use 50/50 coco and hydroton. This supports a thriving beneficial bacteria colony which then, with the help of the top drip irrigation, also drains down into the RDWC and keeps it pathogen free. And one more thing. I use airstones and it made a HUGE difference, but not for the reason you might suspect; rather than correcting deficient aeration- because it wasn't- these work to splatter moisture up in the space above the water but below the netpot. This encourages the roots to come out of the coco and reach down to the water beneath.

How does it work? FUCKING AWESOME. I recently got a little creeped out when a run in early bloom exploded from 18" tall to 30" in just one week. This AFTER they'd been topped. It totally overran my trellis by growing to 4x the area and stretch is only half over!!

To those who feel this post may be off topic, I offer this; that nutrient profiles need to take into account not just the variety of the plant, but also the conditions under which it's being grown. One simple change- tossing airstones into each bucket- led to explosive root growth, and stunning overall growth.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

So JK, ur advocating no air in between the buckets? 3.5 gallon sitting in a 6 gallon w the nute solution hitting the bottom of the top bucket? I'm trying to figure out the nuances of these different buckets. Did u switch from aero bcuz dwc supports beneficials and aero doesn't? I ran dwc/aero combo, then straight aero my first two grows. Fucked up the straight aero in flush, so now looking to build a sys w no sprayers.

I switched because I was growing hundreds of plants that 10 trees covered crop wise. When the DEA came out with their #/year model of terrorism I switched the way I grow. I know when I got hit that if I used 1000's of plants to make what they took in weight I would have done time. Trees have saved me in more then 1 way.
For quick growth in veg and a way to support large plants I like my GM 3000-36.These are 36 gal tanks, 5 gal will bite you in the ass . I prefer my GM 1000-28 or 36 aeros in my own garden. I used to run 8" sewer lines but they took too many plants.JK

 

[LexLuthor]

I switched because I was growing hundreds of plants that 10 trees covered crop wise. When the DEA came out with their #/year model of terrorism I switched the way I grow. I know when I got hit that if I used 1000's of plants to make what they took in weight I would have done time. Trees have saved me in more then 1 way.
For quick growth in veg and a way to support large plants I like my GM 3000-36.These are 36 gal tanks, 5 gal will bite you in the ass . I prefer my GM 1000-28 or 36 aeros in my own garden. I used to run 8" sewer lines but they took too many plants.JK

I was watching a documentary and the DEA agent was in a small room (like 5'x6') and there was 11 small plants. He said "they will yield 1 lb each so it looks like a small grow but he can get 11 lbs."

Which is bullshit because its basically impossible to get 11 lbs. with 1 or 2 lights in a small space like that. The DEA are assholes and they lie about yields and how much money its worth just to scare people into thinking its a violent criminal underworld.

 

[ttystikk]

I was watching a documentary and the DEA agent was in a small room (like 5'x6') and there was 11 small plants. He said "they will yield 1 lb each so it looks like a small grow but he can get 11 lbs."

Which is bullshit because its basically impossible to get 11 lbs. with 1 or 2 lights in a small space like that. The DEA are assholes and they lie about yields and how much money its worth just to scare people into thinking its a violent criminal underworld.

Yes, that's right; our police and law enforcement are IN THE BUSINESS OF LYING TO THE PUBLIC. At what point will a free people decide to stop tolerating this? I'm not betting on soon...

 

[LexLuthor]

Yes, that's right; our police and law enforcement are IN THE BUSINESS OF LYING TO THE PUBLIC. At what point will a free people decide to stop tolerating this? I'm not betting on soon...

I agree, probably not soon at all......Its sad, not every cop in the country is a corrupt, lying piece of shit, but now they all look bad because enough of them are.

Social Libertarian for the win!! LOL

 

[ttystikk]

I agree, probably not soon at all......Its sad, not every cop in the country is a corrupt, lying piece of shit, but now they all look bad because enough of them are.

Social Libertarian for the win!! LOL

If I thought Ralph Nader had a snowball's chance in a blast furnace of winning, I'd have voted for him. The sad fact is that our system of governance is failing us, and few want to do anything about the underlying systemic problems.

Look up 'tragedy of the commons' for a great explanation of how Republicans continue to get support, even while running the country off a financial cliff... OVER AND OVER.

I know some good cops- believe me, they're just as disgusted with the bad ones as the rest of us.

 

[LexLuthor]

If I thought Ralph Nader had a snowball's chance in a blast furnace of winning, I'd have voted for him. The sad fact is that our system of governance is failing us, and few want to do anything about the underlying systemic problems.

Look up 'tragedy of the commons' for a great explanation of how Republicans continue to get support, even while running the country off a financial cliff... OVER AND OVER.

I know some good cops- believe me, they're just as disgusted with the bad ones as the rest of us.

I just agree with some of there social views. Since 2008, under Obama's Democratic administration, the government in 4 years spent as much as Bush did in his 8 years. I am in NO way defending George Bush, but I'm not sure if its just Republicans. I don't wanna get in detail about this so I'll just leave it there and say IMHO BOTH parties are responsible for this financial mess we are in.

George Washington said "political parties will serve only to divide us".

 

[ttystikk]

I just agree with some of there social views. Since 2008, under Obama's Democratic administration, the government in 4 years spent as much as Bush did in his 8 years. I am in NO way defending George Bush, but I'm not sure if its just Republicans. I don't wanna get in detail about this so I'll just leave it there and say IMHO BOTH parties are responsible for this financial mess we are in.

George Washington said "political parties will serve only to divide us".

Then it is high time you got better informed. Mr. Obama has spent that money to stave off another Great Depression, a wrenching time in American history that all those who lived through it remember, and still practice thrift in ways large and small. Mr. Bush was the one who led us OFF that cliff in the first place, and if directions hadn't been drastically reversed, this country's economy would look far differently than it does today. I almost think Mr. Obama was TOO successful, because now it's hard to disprove those who say we wouldn't have had an economic catastrophe in any case. WRONG.

Remember also that Mr. Obama's stimulus package was passed with broad bipartisan support, the loudmouths of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner notwithstanding.

 

[LexLuthor]

Then it is high time you got better informed. Mr. Obama has spent that money to stave off another Great Depression, a wrenching time in American history that all those who lived through it remember, and still practice thrift in ways large and small. Mr. Bush was the one who led us OFF that cliff in the first place, and if directions hadn't been drastically reversed, this country's economy would look far differently than it does today. I almost think Mr. Obama was TOO successful, because now it's hard to disprove those who say we wouldn't have had an economic catastrophe in any case. WRONG.

Remember also that Mr. Obama's stimulus package was passed with broad bipartisan support, the loudmouths of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner notwithstanding.

Its funny how spending more money will get us out of financial trouble, you sound like a news ancor on MSNBC. Oh yeah, we should also pass more gun laws to stop criminals who already break gun laws LOL

Jokes aside, believe what you want about politics bro, I'm not gonna ruin this great thread.

 

[psilo]

Then it is high time you got better informed. Mr. Obama has spent that money to stave off another Great Depression, a wrenching time in American history that all those who lived through it remember, and still practice thrift in ways large and small. Mr. Bush was the one who led us OFF that cliff in the first place, and if directions hadn't been drastically reversed, this country's economy would look far differently than it does today. I almost think Mr. Obama was TOO successful, because now it's hard to disprove those who say we wouldn't have had an economic catastrophe in any case. WRONG.

Remember also that Mr. Obama's stimulus package was passed with broad bipartisan support, the loudmouths of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner notwithstanding.

If you think a stimulus package (which is just another phrase for currency devaluation) can actually solve our financial problems than it is you who had better get "better informed".
All they did was kick the can down the road again making the problem worse.
You can not solve a problem by doing more of what caused the problem in the first place.
Another great depression is baked in the cake. It was avoidable. It no longer is.

 

[ttystikk]

If you think a stimulus package (which is just another phrase for currency devaluation) can actually solve our financial problems than it is you who had better get "better informed".
All they did was kick the can down the road again making the problem worse.
You can not solve a problem by doing more of what caused the problem in the first place.
Another great depression is baked in the cake. It was avoidable. It no longer is.

I remain unconvinced that doing nothing- the strategy pursued in the 1930s, for those who remember their history- would be in any way better. In fact, history has shown that it made things worse, and for much longer.

As far as the idea of gov't stimulus getting us out of recession, remember that the debt has little to do with the state of the economy. It is common for America to run a budget deficit in times of economic expansion, although Mr. Clinton proved that raising taxes and running a SURPLUS did nothing to hurt the strong economy built under his watch. In fact, what got America out of the Great Depression was massive deficit spending by the Federal Governement- on war materiel to fight WWII. "Dubbya" actually trotted that out as justification for going to war in Iraq, if you can believe it!

 

[wobbly goblin]

the politics is out of hand guys, you're screwing up a good thread
don't make me call your mamma's :>(

 

[jfizzle2cmu]

the politics is out of hand guys, you're screwing up a good thread
don't make me call your mamma's :>(

I agree. I'm hugely political (side with ttystikk), but I don't want to see any of it on a pot thread. I see it everywhere else. Let's keep it out of this fantastically revolutionary thread.
I like your idea here:

And one more thing. I use airstones and it made a HUGE difference, but not for the reason you might suspect; rather than correcting deficient aeration- because it wasn't- these work to splatter moisture up in the space above the water but below the netpot. This encourages the roots to come out of the coco and reach down to the water beneath.

I experienced this in my aero/dwc unit. I'm thinking of re-making that unit with a few new twists: 20 gallon bucket, 8" netpot with coco/hydroton (props), fill halfway with nute solution, topfeed, many airstones, and then my kicker...I want to try a fogger in the bottom at maybe 1 min on, 4 min off or so. I really liked my aero/dwc combo, but the sprayers were a pain in the ass, and I used a 72 gallon bucket with 12 - 3" net pots. Needless to say, it was hell dealing with sprayers and the nute solution in the root zone. I also had a 4-site aero unit in which I used 2 - 30 gallon buckets stacked on one another with the nute solution in the bottom bucket and the roots confined to the top. It worked well until I left town during flush for the weekend and came back to flushed nutes clogging the sprayers completely, and dead plants :(
I think a floating fogger in a dwc unit only filled halfway would be the best of all worlds. Any thoughts on this anyone?

 

[jfizzle2cmu]

I'm also looking into making my own ferts. I've done a shit ton of research and plan on continuing so, but here is a list of nutes I'm looking to use:
Macros-Mag. Nitrate, Cal. Nitrate, K Sulf, MPK, P Sil
Micros-Biomins or Dissolvine Individual Micros
Additives-Fulvic Acid, Humic Acid, Citric Acid, Yucca Extract, Saponin Extract, Versene Acid, Versene Salt, B-1 Thiamine Hydrochoride, b-2 Thiaminide, b-3 Riboflavin, b-5 pantothenic acid, b-6 pyridoxine, b-9 folic acid, b-12 cyanocobalamin, vit. c abscorbic acid
Bennies-Trichoderma, Endomycorrhizae, Bacillus Subtillis
Hormones-BAP, Brassinolide, GA3, IAA, IBA, NAA, Triancontanol
Preservative-Sodium Benzoate
Ph Up-Potassium Hydroxide
Ph Down-??Unsure??

I have a pretty good idea on my formulations for my macros and micros, just not sure on how much additives and especially hormones to use. Hormones I'll be using as lightly as possible, just enough to get in there. Plus I have virtually no idea what the hormones do exactly. I think the iaa, iba, and naa are all for early stage, trian and bap for flower....now I know giberrellic acid is used to make feminized seeds, but not sure if it has other use as well, and no idea what brassinolide is for. This good be dangerous I'm sure, so I'll be doing extensive research first before growing. The additives and vitamines I'm sure can just be used in general light applications to gain the benefits. I'm also looking to use extracts down the road to enhance the crops. BTW Dankworth, or whomever edited out the portion of this thread where JK tells you where he buys his nutes, caused me a great deal of pain today when I tried to go back through the thread 5 times to find the site lol. I know there are obvious reasons why you did so, so I'm just glad I caught it before it got deleted. Fucking badass store btw. Everything I just listed is there. Anyways, anyone with experience using PGRs, limits, time to apply and information would be GREATLY appreciated.

It's my firm belief that giving the plant a broad range of nutes, vits, mins, etc. is better than not doing so.

 

[ttystikk]

the politics is out of hand guys, you're screwing up a good thread
don't make me call your mamma's :>(

Good point. Sorry, now back to our regularly scheduled ongoing criminal enterprises... lol

 

[ttystikk]

I agree. I'm hugely political (side with ttystikk), but I don't want to see any of it on a pot thread. I see it everywhere else. Let's keep it out of this fantastically revolutionary thread.
I like your idea here:
I experienced this in my aero/dwc unit. I'm thinking of re-making that unit with a few new twists: 20 gallon bucket, 8" netpot with coco/hydroton (props), fill halfway with nute solution, topfeed, many airstones, and then my kicker...I want to try a fogger in the bottom at maybe 1 min on, 4 min off or so. I really liked my aero/dwc combo, but the sprayers were a pain in the ass, and I used a 72 gallon bucket with 12 - 3" net pots. Needless to say, it was hell dealing with sprayers and the nute solution in the root zone. I also had a 4-site aero unit in which I used 2 - 30 gallon buckets stacked on one another with the nute solution in the bottom bucket and the roots confined to the top. It worked well until I left town during flush for the weekend and came back to flushed nutes clogging the sprayers completely, and dead plants :(
I think a floating fogger in a dwc unit only filled halfway would be the best of all worlds. Any thoughts on this anyone?

I haven't tried it, but nearly everyone I've spoken to hates foggers after they've tried them; they clog like nobody's business. Even my topfeed irrigation system gets full of coco and I have to clean it periodically. As far as what improvement there might be, I try to keep the water level within a half inch to an inch of the bottom of the netpot bucket lids I'm using. This minimizes that air space and makes it easier for the airstone to wet it well enough to get the roots to come out and play. Once the roots are into the water, I'm in fat city. I'm not going to say the foggers would do NO good, but I've arranged things in my own setup to minimize what benefit they might bring, so I'm not going to be the best person to test this idea.

I'm also looking into making my own ferts. I've done a shit ton of research and plan on continuing so, but here is a list of nutes I'm looking to use:
Macros-Mag. Nitrate, Cal. Nitrate, K Sulf, MPK, P Sil
Micros-Biomins or Dissolvine Individual Micros
Additives-Fulvic Acid, Humic Acid, Citric Acid, Yucca Extract, Saponin Extract, Versene Acid, Versene Salt, B-1 Thiamine Hydrochoride, b-2 Thiaminide, b-3 Riboflavin, b-5 pantothenic acid, b-6 pyridoxine, b-9 folic acid, b-12 cyanocobalamin, vit. c abscorbic acid
Bennies-Trichoderma, Endomycorrhizae, Bacillus Subtillis
Hormones-BAP, Brassinolide, GA3, IAA, IBA, NAA, Triancontanol
Preservative-Sodium Benzoate
Ph Up-Potassium Hydroxide
Ph Down-??Unsure??

I have a pretty good idea on my formulations for my macros and micros, just not sure on how much additives and especially hormones to use. Hormones I'll be using as lightly as possible, just enough to get in there. Plus I have virtually no idea what the hormones do exactly. I think the iaa, iba, and naa are all for early stage, trian and bap for flower....now I know giberrellic acid is used to make feminized seeds, but not sure if it has other use as well, and no idea what brassinolide is for. This good be dangerous I'm sure, so I'll be doing extensive research first before growing. The additives and vitamines I'm sure can just be used in general light applications to gain the benefits. I'm also looking to use extracts down the road to enhance the crops. BTW Dankworth, or whomever edited out the portion of this thread where JK tells you where he buys his nutes, caused me a great deal of pain today when I tried to go back through the thread 5 times to find the site lol. I know there are obvious reasons why you did so, so I'm just glad I caught it before it got deleted. Fucking badass store btw. Everything I just listed is there. Anyways, anyone with experience using PGRs, limits, time to apply and information would be GREATLY appreciated.

It's my firm belief that giving the plant a broad range of nutes, vits, mins, etc. is better than not doing so.

pH down = citric acid, or phosphoric acid. I like to use the GH ph down dry powder stuff, which uses both.

Your firm belief could also fairly be characterized as advanced common sense, which would be less common than it sounds, lol. Give 'em everything in moderate quantities and adjust based on observation. I see nothing wrong with your intentions as written. I want to hear how it grows!

One more thing about bennies in RDWC; I have found that if you keep the temps in the RDWC water in the 58-63 F range, adding a few bennies all but completely wipes out not only any pathogens lurking about, but it also eliminates the need for thorough scrubbing and sanitization. I just flush my system and refill with fresh nutes every few weeks, and between runs. Simple, easy, and no nasty chemicals to buy, breathe or make expensive mistakes with.

 

[ttystikk]

Jfizzle, one more thing; since you're clearly well versed in beneficial microbials, you might look around for threads by and featuring Capulator's posts. He does the bennies thing as a serious business and is very knowlegeable about the science behind it.

 

[Capulator]

I'm also looking into making my own ferts. I've done a shit ton of research and plan on continuing so, but here is a list of nutes I'm looking to use:
Macros-Mag. Nitrate, Cal. Nitrate, K Sulf, MPK, P Sil
Micros-Biomins or Dissolvine Individual Micros
Additives-Fulvic Acid, Humic Acid, Citric Acid, Yucca Extract, Saponin Extract, Versene Acid, Versene Salt, B-1 Thiamine Hydrochoride, b-2 Thiaminide, b-3 Riboflavin, b-5 pantothenic acid, b-6 pyridoxine, b-9 folic acid, b-12 cyanocobalamin, vit. c abscorbic acid
Bennies-Trichoderma, Endomycorrhizae, Bacillus Subtillis
Hormones-BAP, Brassinolide, GA3, IAA, IBA, NAA, Triancontanol
Preservative-Sodium Benzoate
Ph Up-Potassium Hydroxide
Ph Down-??Unsure??

I have a pretty good idea on my formulations for my macros and micros, just not sure on how much additives and especially hormones to use. Hormones I'll be using as lightly as possible, just enough to get in there. Plus I have virtually no idea what the hormones do exactly. I think the iaa, iba, and naa are all for early stage, trian and bap for flower....now I know giberrellic acid is used to make feminized seeds, but not sure if it has other use as well, and no idea what brassinolide is for. This good be dangerous I'm sure, so I'll be doing extensive research first before growing. The additives and vitamines I'm sure can just be used in general light applications to gain the benefits. I'm also looking to use extracts down the road to enhance the crops. BTW Dankworth, or whomever edited out the portion of this thread where JK tells you where he buys his nutes, caused me a great deal of pain today when I tried to go back through the thread 5 times to find the site lol. I know there are obvious reasons why you did so, so I'm just glad I caught it before it got deleted. Fucking badass store btw. Everything I just listed is there. Anyways, anyone with experience using PGRs, limits, time to apply and information would be GREATLY appreciated.

It's my firm belief that giving the plant a broad range of nutes, vits, mins, etc. is better than not doing so.

I believe it was haifa for the most part.

Enjoy! Open forum is a bitch. LOL.

 

[Capulator]

When JK drops knowledge you best have yer pen and paper out. You never know when it will disappear or what you may have to decode. :eek: