120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

[El Cerebro]

@dizzlekush, what is your medium, container size, and irrigation frequency?

 

[dizzlekush]

@dizzlekush, what is your medium, container size, and irrigation frequency?

great questions.

I prefer peat moss, didn't like the pH control ProMix had so im currently using Sunshine Mix #4. the plants are in 3 gallon pots. How often i water depends on what Vapour Pressure Deficit i provide in the garden. every 4-6 days, usually 5.

 

[Capulator]

I lower my CalciNit applications in late flower since it will give some strains what i call "The curse of eternally white stigmas", and the plant will never look fully mature. Im fairly positive this is due to the excess Ca instead of N though, since i've found lots of scientific lit on Ca delaying maturation/senescence and most scientific lit i find on N talks about N DEFICIENCY causing a delay in maturation, have found nothing on excess causing it.

This leads me to believe the common belief amongst cannabis cultivators that N is bad for flowering comes from over application of Calcium Nitrate delaying maturation, and the N being blamed instead of the Ca.This is just like how NH4 is often blamed for causing stretch when its an overapplication of mono or di ammonium phosphate and the extra P that causes stretch.


The N to Ca ratio is relatively unimportant aside from its effect on lodging and insect & mold susceptibility. A lack of either will increase susceptibility, but the higher the N and the lower the Ca the more susceptible the plant becomes. Excess N softens tissues, while Ca toughens it. The softer the tissue, the more susceptible the crop is to lodging, insects and molds. Other than that, Cannabis will grow very happily on a wide range of N:Ca ratio as long as adequate amounts of each are provided.

The Ca:Mg ratio is much more important, as each antagonizes the uptake of the other, 3:1 - 2:1 Ca:Mg being the optimal range.

150ppm Ca? Yosemite Sam was going that high in Ca trying to get the Albrecht ratio's in his medium (old-school discredited science), but last i heard from him it was causing some serious delays in his crops maturation, although the ladies looked very healthy. you noticing anything?

3-1-2 is great for veg, 2-1-2 isn't optimal for bloom but plants will do just fine on it. 2-1-2 is considered the 'go-to' ratio for most horticultural applications

Thank you. Sounds like you know a thing or two that we can all benefit from . I have suffered from the never ending pistil theory.. but also noticed denser buds. I don't mind letting them go a little longer though, especially if they are packing on weight while they are doing it.

 

[El Cerebro]

So is it the same for something like 50/50 coco/perlite??

sorry not sure, no real experience there. the peat thing might throw off comparisons for a few of us (every 4-6 days!:eek:o_O hell 4-6 hours even sounds like a stretch to me, haha)

 

[LexLuthor]

sorry not sure, no real experience there. the peat thing might throw off comparisons for a few of us (every 4-6 days!:eek:o_O hell 4-6 hours even sounds like a stretch to me, haha)

I got GH MaxiGro and Koolbloom, but I can't get the exact ratio I want so I'm buying some MKP, Cal Nit, K nitrate, potash and micros (already have epsom). I'm gonna run a few perlite hempys and coco/perlite and copy some proven formulations then tweak like Dank always suggests.

 

[Capulator]

sorry not sure, no real experience there. the peat thing might throw off comparisons for a few of us (every 4-6 days!:eek:o_O hell 4-6 hours even sounds like a stretch to me, haha)

Yeah 5 days and all my plants would be dead.

 

[ttystikk]

Thank you. Sounds like you know a thing or two that we can all benefit from . I have suffered from the never ending pistil theory.. but also noticed denser buds. I don't mind letting them go a little longer though, especially if they are packing on weight while they are doing it.

I second this! On the other side of the timing coin is the theory about shortening flowering times with more intense conditions of high light pressure, higher temps, higher RH (VPD correct) and CO2 augmentation. Might these cancel one another out? I sense an opportunity to fiddle with things a bit here to increase the all-important weight number...

sorry not sure, no real experience there. the peat thing might throw off comparisons for a few of us (every 4-6 days!:eek:o_O hell 4-6 hours even sounds like a stretch to me, haha)

Yeah 5 days and all my plants would be dead.

..and this would be why I went back to RDWC after a foray into coco. Well, okay, I brought the coco along and now they play nicely together. I've sized the RDWC to hold enough solution to feed the girls for 2 weeks at a time, and top off with water or very weak solution. I still top feed, but with water from the RDWC. I topdress with organic amendments like earthworm castings onto the coco and I'm brewing some ACT to add to the mix.

The biggest surprise? It turns out that airstones are very important to help coax roots out of the coco and down into the water. The bubbles burst at the surface and mist/humidify the space between coco and water and then roots grow into it, leading to a burst of growth and strength for the plants. The best part? The smaller the pot full of coco, the faster this happens.

 

[dizzlekush]

sorry not sure, no real experience there. the peat thing might throw off comparisons for a few of us (every 4-6 days!:eek:o_O hell 4-6 hours even sounds like a stretch to me, haha)

Yeah 5 days and all my plants would be dead.

Yea this is one of the reasons i gave up on coco. so much work. I like being able to leave for 5 days and abandon the garden and have it thriving when i get back. That and this study gave me the motivation to do a side by side comparison of peat vs coco and the peat plants did much better with much less work.

TO ALL COCO USERS! please read this study, its really, REALLY worth the download. i promise that there's no virus attached, its from a university website. This could potentially change the way you grow forever.
www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf

You can get most of the gist of the study by simply looking at the pictures, but this is one part worthy of note:
"Ma and Nichols (2004) recently reported that the problems with coir extend beyond its high salinity. Their data indicate that high concentrations of phenolic compounds in fresh coir are at least partly responsible for the growth reductions observed in other studies."

Another thing worth note is that cheap ass "Grow Coir" did much better than whats often considered the industry leader "Canna Coco" or any other brand.

 

[Capulator]

funny b

Yea this is one of the reasons i gave up on coco. so much work. I like being able to leave for 5 days and abandon the garden and have it thriving when i get back. That and this study gave me the motivation to do a side by side comparison of peat vs coco and the peat plants did much better with much less work.

TO ALL COCO USERS! please read this study, its really, REALLY worth the download. i promise that there's no virus attached, its from a university website. This could potentially change the way you grow forever.
www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf

You can get most of the gist of the study by simply looking at the pictures, but this is one part worthy of note:
"Ma and Nichols (2004) recently reported that the problems with coir extend beyond its high salinity. Their data indicate that high concentrations of phenolic compounds in fresh coir are at least partly responsible for the growth reductions observed in other studies."

Another thing worth note is that cheap ass "Grow Coir" did much better than whats often considered the industry leader "Canna Coco" or any other brand.

too funny since I just bought a 3 cu ft. bale of peat at the nursery to start using. When I was in plant propagation class in college all that we used was 50/50 peat and perlite, and we had great success. Thought I would go back to my old school ways for a bit. Thank you for the link.

 

[dizzlekush]

On the other side of the timing coin is the theory about shortening flowering times with more intense conditions of high light pressure, higher temps, higher RH (VPD correct) and CO2 augmentation.

I know you are correct that higher temperatures and higher CO2 levels will promote an earlier maturation since both increase ethylene biosynthesis in plants, which promotes maturation. I have no idea about light conditions (as PPFD, DLI or even SPD) or VPD and their effect on maturation. I would imagine VPD has next to no effect, but light conditions might.

 

[dankworth]

Didn't Mr. Dizzle talk about going to a bucket system involving peat in the bucket?

 

[LexLuthor]

When ya'll say peat I assume its sphagnum peat moss not humus, correct?

So how would you treat a 50/50 peat/perlite media? Do you allow the media to dry like soil in between waterings and do you have to use plain water in between feedings?

I think I'll try that since I got peat and perlite on hand. It'll save me a trip to the hydro store.

 

[ttystikk]

I know you are correct that higher temperatures and higher CO2 levels will promote an earlier maturation since both increase ethylene biosynthesis in plants, which promotes maturation. I have no idea about light conditions (as PPFD, DLI or even SPD) or VPD and their effect on maturation. I would imagine VPD has next to no effect, but light conditions might.

Well, since I was going on personal observation as much as anything I'd read, I wasn't sure which of the conditions I listed off would be the likely contributors. It's interesting to learn which environmental conditions have what specific effects on the plants. I'm not sure that in this case it would lead me to do anything differently, as the conditions mentioned all pretty much work together hand in glove to improve productivity for me.

This leads to an important line of inquiry about these conditions and how they affect the plants' ability to take up the nutrients discussed in this thread. For example; dry conditions cause plants to transpire more water, which leads to potential burning if the nutrient strength isn't properly adjusted. I wonder if- and how- the relative ratios of the component elements might change due to differences in relative humidity.

 

[dizzlekush]

When ya'll say peat I assume its sphagnum peat moss not humus, correct?

Correct

So how would you treat a 50/50 peat/perlite media? Do you allow the media to dry like soil in between waterings and do you have to use plain water in between feedings?

First off you should never let soil dry out. The real advantage behind soil is the environment it provides for microbes. Every time you allow soil to dry you lose a significant amount of your microbial density, lessening the benefits from soil grows.

Also root hairs need a mix of moisture and oxygen to stay alive, no form of cannabis cultivation should allow for roots to be dry for any significant amount of time. That being said peat has a huge water holding capacity and its very easy to overwater plants in peat in comparison to coir. Here's a bit from a PM i just recently had with another member of this site about the same subject:

Before you start potting in peat i suggest viewing this video

you can skip to 2:25 to get to the nitty gritty if this shit bores you. You can also skip the section on stacking trays (4:35 - 8:50), but you should watch the rest of the video to the end. *Note* when they mention 'yield' they do not mean plant yield, they mean yield of the peat

Essentially most people don't use proper potting methods when using peat. you should:

ALWAYS water your peat BEFORE potting with it and allow time for the peat to expand.
ALWAYS pot your plants to the top rim, you payed for the extra root space and the plants will want it.
NEVER compact your peat, this is the hardest thing to get growers to do by far but it greatly increases air porosity, drainage, decreases how much peat you need to use for each container, and does not increase lodging.

if you like this stuff the 2nd half and this video have some good review info:

 

[swisscheese]

Yea this is one of the reasons i gave up on coco. so much work. I like being able to leave for 5 days and abandon the garden and have it thriving when i get back. That and this study gave me the motivation to do a side by side comparison of peat vs coco and the peat plants did much better with much less work.

TO ALL COCO USERS! please read this study, its really, REALLY worth the download. i promise that there's no virus attached, its from a university website. This could potentially change the way you grow forever.
www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf

You can get most of the gist of the study by simply looking at the pictures, but this is one part worthy of note:
"Ma and Nichols (2004) recently reported that the problems with coir extend beyond its high salinity. Their data indicate that high concentrations of phenolic compounds in fresh coir are at least partly responsible for the growth reductions observed in other studies."

Another thing worth note is that cheap ass "Grow Coir" did much better than whats often considered the industry leader "Canna Coco" or any other brand.

I came across that study a year ago and figured I would give coco another year just to see what's up. Same as the study always some kind of issues in coco and after 3 years I am about ready to retire from coco and go back to promix or hydroponics. Coco really attracts aphids and fungus gnats better than any other medium I've ever used. There was also a coco vs peat comparison in a co-op's grow log on here from bc I believe that showed the peat as superior. As a smoker I would say coco also gives a more sharp, sour, or bitter flavor to strains that when grown in promix or dirt would have more of a sweet to them. And the flavor is less complex compared to peat or dirt.

 

[LexLuthor]

Correct

First off you should never let soil dry out. The real advantage behind soil is the environment it provides for microbes. Every time you allow soil to dry you lose a significant amount of your microbial density, lessening the benefits from soil grows.

I never allow my soil to actually dry out, I should have worded that better. I meant do you allow peat to slightly dry like soil, because your not suppose to keep soil at its saturation point at all times. I usually allow soil to dry to the point where it weighs less when I lift my buckets, but its still moist when I stick my finger 1-2" deep.

I'm using 100% perlite hempy buckets right now so peat is probably a good addition to try out with perlite. Thanks for the tips and video's.

 

[kuz]

the extra root space and the plants will want it.

I didnt mean to chop the quote in half. Do your three gallon pots get root bound?

In the 5 gallon pots I'm using the roots are taking up the entire space, I would like to go to 7 gallon, but they dont fit in the containers I'm using.

 

[kushtrees]

I love all the peat talk I've been curious about switching out coco with it for awhile. Would peat chow mix work as well as traditional chow mix? I was thinking of cutting promix or sunshine mix 4 with hydroton (or whatever the rocks are being called these days). Any thoughts on this?

 

[GanjaAL]

Well I am getting ready to start up... if anyone wants to help, I am willing to go chowmix using the peat moss instead of the coco.

LMK as I am getting ready to crack seeds around the first. Glad I waited. I have 15 gallon fabric pots that I will be using and going with SCROG.

 

[Capulator]

Well I am getting ready to start up... if anyone wants to help, I am willing to go chowmix using the peat moss instead of the coco.

LMK as I am getting ready to crack seeds around the first. Glad I waited. I have 15 gallon fabric pots that I will be using and going with SCROG.

If you do peat just do 50/50 peat and perlite. Thats the old school recipe. No need to do hydroton/peat IMHO.