21st Century Flood & Drain

[PhatNuggz]

I began the hydro journey 2.5 years ago, after a several year hiatus when I used soil. Over time I came to realize that hydro and aero is not the same. To bad the mods don't understand this as TAG should have its' own subheading.

After several lost starts with drip (root rot), I morphed my grow on the fly as I explored alternatives like: fog, and low pressure spray bars. I came across a 10 year old TAG thread, which incorporated high pressure pumps (but an open system). I call mine TAG 2.0 because the parts are significantly better and cheaper today. Back then high pressure low flow mist heads (0.0092gpm) were not only expensive but one needed good plumbing skills to incorporate. Also the pumps were too big, too noisy and failed frequently under the demands. I have been using my Aquatec 8800 (<$90) almost constantly for 1.5 years and it's still going strong. A huge benefit is that it is fitted with 3/8 John Guest quick connect fittings (as are the reptile mist heads), making assembly super easy.

Most of my TAG parts were sourced from Reptile Basics, Lowes, and a Sentinel MDT -1, which 'may' turn out to be overkill. Even though HPA (high pressure aero) uses similar parts, HPA means the nutrients are kept under pressure via an accumulator. Nutrients are delivered under full pressure as soon as the cycle cracks open, allowing for very deep cycle feed times- typically under one second. I finally concluded that an open system does not respond the same way to short feed cycles. Eureka!

For the purist, HPA is the ultimate. Me being a pragmatist, I wanted to see how close I could come to HPA without the expense, complexity, and floor space needed for an accumulator.

HPAs ultimate claim to fame is its' ability to deliver precise amounts of nutrients (<1 second feed) roughly every minute or so, under full line pressure. The benefit of this is that the plants are constantly feeding but only enough to provide the energy the plant needs during that cycle. Therefore they never starve, but constantly ready to eat 24/7. Nutritionists say we would be healthier if we ate 5-7 smaller meals throughout the day, instead of waiting until we get really hungry and stuffing our faces.

As the root chamber (pod) is repeatedly filled with minute quantities of an atomized mist, root development is significantly different from all other hydro methods where some portion of the roots are literally soaking in nutrients 24/7. This is why DWC roots look like matted swollen spaghetti. The more surface area the greater the amount of nutrients can be taken in.

Misting the pod alters the tap roots' growth. Instead of seeking water at the bottom of the pod, lateral roots develop (called fish bones) to collect the misted nutrients. This in effect multiplies (quadruples is closer to accurate) the roots' surface area.

In the beginning plant growth is slower than other hydro systems as the energy is going to develop the lateral roots. Once a nice root system develops, plant growth explodes. Now, lateral roots are not the be-all-end-all. They achieve maximum efficiency when they are covered with fuzzies (look like pipe cleaners) called root hairs. Nail this and your plant will take care of itself!

A consequence of frequent feeding is the plants need much lower ppms, which can be a considerable savings per grow; makes those designer nutes more attractive.

So, root hairs being my goal, I assumed the only way to get them is to approximate as best I could HPAs extremely short feed cycles. It has taken me almost two full grows to realize that an open system (non pressurized) will not develop root hairs using short feed cycles.

The problem is that an open system means the line pressure drops to zero between each feed cycle: so, the time it takes for the pump to achieve >50 psi might be a couple seconds, during which the nutrients are not fully atomized and therefore not filling your pod.

I figured this out after starting a back up grow several weeks ago. My lowest cycling back up timer's minimum on time is 30 seconds. I thought I would be drowning my roots. I probably would but I compensated by using an extended pause cycle. A 30 second feed cycle followed by a 30 minutes pause {edit 3/8- increased pause to 45 minutes} in a 14G pod using a dual mist head, and I am seeing lots of root hairs.

So, today I increased my cycle times in the main pod to 15 seconds feed and 15 minutes pause. Why not 30/30? Well in the back up I am using a UFO 90 LED (no heat), in the main room I am using 400 watt HO, 8 bulb T 5, so I want to make sure the extra heat does not dry out the roots inside the pod. I am still experimenting with increasing the pause

Please let me know if you are interested in keeping this going. Next up would be sizing pods and the number of plants per pod.

hths to dispel the mystery known as TAG and HPA.

 

[Bobby Smith]

I'd like it if you kept a journal on this site.

FYI, I think there's a typo - ".0092 GPH" sounds a little low (maybe you meant GPM?) - mine are .9GPH.

 

[PhatNuggz]

Nice catch. edited to .0092gpm

 

[jimmyhoffa59]

Would love to see photos of all that your talking about.. some of us juniors here have no idea about all this and would love to see examples.

 

[oryxx]

Hi there!
Would love to have more details!!

 

[PhatNuggz]

JIMMIEH. Looking at your AZ pics, clearly you have skillz. They may look good on paper, as does the UC system, but I do not like DWC systems for mj.

pm me and I will hook you up with links to my grows.

 

[tokinupon1]

I Cant read enough on this topic keep it going for sure I'm Hoping to Do a build over the summer although acumulators seem safer.

 

[Bobby Smith]

I Cant read enough on this topic keep it going for sure I'm Hoping to Do a build over the summer although acumulators seem safer.

Definitely easier to build in redundancies with an accumulator setup, but for ease of use a pump based system works pretty well.

 

[tokinupon1]

Ya for sure bobby how's your system Workin you
Get it together and running? You going to do a build log or nah?

 

[john guest]

Nice catch. edited to .0092gpm

If you measure it you`ll find it`ll be a lot more, theres little point in referencing the nozzle flowrate unless its accurate :)

 

[PhatNuggz]

JohnG. Most likely you are correct, but being a pragmatist, these heads get me in the ball park, so to speak. I am looking into the mosquito heads that don't crack until something like 90 psi, but man, that might blow your line connections.

 

[PhatNuggz]

Here are some pics of the set up. I wrap the frame with windshield reflectors. Not concerned about leaking light. The room is relatively dark, and besides, plants in nature are getting moon light.You can find descriptions by looking in my Gallery.

Couplers look alike, but you want the one on the far left.

Inside lip eliminates need for net pot, also perfectly fits foam inserts which you will add later to prevent weight of plant dropping through as well as for clones.

This little lady (` 16") is a X between Bubblecious and Lowryder#2, an AF. I purchased the seeds privately, later learning the X is not AF stable. I was told seeds to harvest was like 65 days, well this shot is a week old at some 3.5 months and counting. Since taking this pic last Saturday, she is really packing on the pistils and has a fair amount of crystals.

hth

 

[FLB]

I began the hydro journey 2.5 years ago, after a several year hiatus when I used soil. Over time I came to realize that hydro and aero is not the same. To bad the mods don't understand this as TAG should have its' own subheading.

After several lost starts with drip (root rot), I morphed my grow on the fly as I explored alternatives like: fog, and low pressure spray bars. I came across a 10 year old TAG thread, which incorporated high pressure pumps (but an open system). I call mine TAG 2.0 because the parts are significantly better and cheaper today. Back then high pressure low flow mist heads (0.0092gpm) were not only expensive but one needed good plumbing skills to incorporate. Also the pumps were too big, too noisy and failed frequently under the demands. I have been using my Aquatec 8800 (<$90) almost constantly for 1.5 years and it's still going strong. A huge benefit is that it is fitted with 3/8 John Guest quick connect fittings (as are the reptile mist heads), making assembly super easy.

Most of my TAG parts were sourced from Reptile Basics, Lowes, and a Sentinel MDT -1, which 'may' turn out to be overkill. Even though HPA (high pressure aero) uses similar parts, HPA means the nutrients are kept under pressure via an accumulator. Nutrients are delivered under full pressure as soon as the cycle cracks open, allowing for very deep cycle feed times- typically under one second. I finally concluded that an open system does not respond the same way to short feed cycles. Eureka!

For the purist, HPA is the ultimate. Me being a pragmatist, I wanted to see how close I could come to HPA without the expense, complexity, and floor space needed for an accumulator.

HPAs ultimate claim to fame is its' ability to deliver precise amounts of nutrients (<1 second feed) roughly every minute or so, under full line pressure. The benefit of this is that the plants are constantly feeding but only enough to provide the energy the plant needs during that cycle. Therefore they never starve, but constantly ready to eat 24/7. Nutritionists say we would be healthier if we ate 5-7 smaller meals throughout the day, instead of waiting until we get really hungry and stuffing our faces.

As the root chamber (pod) is repeatedly filled with minute quantities of an atomized mist, root development is significantly different from all other hydro methods where some portion of the roots are literally soaking in nutrients 24/7. This is why DWC roots look like matted swollen spaghetti. The more surface area the greater the amount of nutrients can be taken in.

Misting the pod alters the tap roots' growth. Instead of seeking water at the bottom of the pod, lateral roots develop (called fish bones) to collect the misted nutrients. This in effect multiplies (quadruples is closer to accurate) the roots' surface area.

In the beginning plant growth is slower than other hydro systems as the energy is going to develop the lateral roots. Once a nice root system develops, plant growth explodes. Now, lateral roots are not the be-all-end-all. They achieve maximum efficiency when they are covered with fuzzies (look like pipe cleaners) called root hairs. Nail this and your plant will take care of itself!

A consequence of frequent feeding is the plants need much lower ppms, which can be a considerable savings per grow; makes those designer nutes more attractive.

So, root hairs being my goal, I assumed the only way to get them is to approximate as best I could HPAs extremely short feed cycles. It has taken me almost two full grows to realize that an open system (non pressurized) will not develop root hairs using short feed cycles.

The problem is that an open system means the line pressure drops to zero between each feed cycle: so, the time it takes for the pump to achieve >50 psi might be a couple seconds, during which the nutrients are not fully atomized and therefore not filling your pod.

I figured this out after starting a back up grow several weeks ago. My lowest cycling back up timer's minimum on time is 30 seconds. I thought I would be drowning my roots. I probably would but I compensated by using an extended pause cycle. A 30 second feed cycle followed by a 30 minutes pause {edit 3/8- increased pause to 45 minutes} in a 14G pod using a dual mist head, and I am seeing lots of root hairs.

So, today I increased my cycle times in the main pod to 15 seconds feed and 15 minutes pause. Why not 30/30? Well in the back up I am using a UFO 90 LED (no heat), in the main room I am using 400 watt HO, 8 bulb T 5, so I want to make sure the extra heat does not dry out the roots inside the pod. I am still experimenting with increasing the pause

Please let me know if you are interested in keeping this going. Next up would be sizing pods and the number of plants per pod.

hths to dispel the mystery known as TAG and HPA.

Nice thread Phatz. I run a very similar system being open and all. I source all my parts at a hardware store. I wanted something very simple and easy to source parts. I use the cheap 10 PSI. 180* mister heads you find in the landscape section. My pump's pressure switch is a 40-60 which I consider high pressure. I turn two mister heads towards the side wall of a 5 gal bucket. This keeps the high pressure mist directly off the roots letting the finer root hairs develop. This also makes the water molecules fracture really nice making a cyclone of fine mist in my buckets. Next round I plan on putting some kind of plastic mesh in the upper chamber to stop root rope from occuring.

I totally agree about trying to maintain all three types of root structures. The flood systems/DWC/RDWC all seem to lack the finer root hairs all though the growth rates are off the charts in relation to soil. I do incorporate a mini current in my system by running a stacked bucket which creates a 3 inch gap in the lower chamber. They are all daisy chained together via the lower bucket to res. I drill a bunch of holes in the top bucket which allows the tap roots to grow down through and sit in the minicurrent. I get enough DO through the mister heads that I do not run any air stones in my system.

I am still playing with my feed cycles as well, it seems that they want more frequent feedings at a younger age and less as they get older and end of flower cycle. I usually let my girls tell me what they want. What I love most about this system is the explosive growth compared to the very low ppm's. I rarely go over 600 ppm's. And being able to look at the root zone at any time to check for any signs of problems is key. It typically starts there. It also seems that any deficeincies can be addressed immediately do to the atomization of water/nute molecules. I will get some pics up one of these days

 

[PhatNuggz]

3/13/11 Lonely Girl is packin on the pistils, trics and now calyxes. I had to move her to the UFO 90 because I needed to move the 5 young uns' to the 4 ft Bad Boy

These plants are about 5 weeks old. They have been in my back up system, which is basically the same as the main system except the back up timer's minimum on time is 30 seconds, which is too long. You need somewhere between 5-15 seconds with aprox 3 minutes per second for pause

These roots are the result of 2 weeks where the feed cycle was too long. They will fill in a lot now that they are in the main rig where I can dial in feed cycles as low as 2 seconds. Giving them 5 second cycles with 15 minute pauses, will see how they respond

 

[PhatNuggz]

For those who noticed, I have retitled this thread to better reflect it's heritage- Flood & Drain, but with a 21st Century twist.

My very first grow 3 decades ago was a 1000 w MH, twin tub F&D using gravel, and a timer, as I was traveling a week at a time, I left nute replenishment to my then wife.

Indica plants were 4-5 ft tall, with individual shade leaves bigger than my two hands side-by-side, with thumbs and fingers spread. Unfortunately, my lazy-ass wife would not replenish the nutes. Each time I got home from the road, the rez would be bone dry, and the plants severely wilted. After several such episodes they did not recover. I soon divorced her: this being one of lots of other issues. One of my friends needed a place to stay, then another, so I did not restart the grows.

Some 10 years later I was settled, and started again, but in soil with a 400 watt lamp. Never had anywhere near the growth. Fast forward 15 years and 2 years ago I got the itch to grow again. Started reading the magazines and fell hard for a UFO 90- a very good light but not enough watts; I now use a Quantum Bad Boy 8 bulb (400 watt)for mid-veg-flower. I came across grow sites like this one (who knew?), also googled hydroponics. WOW. I bought a drip system on line, but it kept clogging (did not realize it was my nutes, which were not hydro friendly). The rest of the story is already here, if you want more of the back story, which covers, rdwc-drip, pond foggers (really bad), and low pressure spray bars. If you want to grow excellent weed fast without the many drawbacks each of these brings, then you are in the right place.

My 21st Century F&D borrows heavily from developers of TAG (True Aeroponic Grow- NASA based, ~10 years ago). It completely eliminates the grow medium beyond a starter cube for seedlings, and completely for clones; and due to advances in pumps, mist heads, and timers, today the entire system can be put together in less than an hour (see system photos elsewhere in this thread).

3 Parts The deep cycle timer (like a Sentinel) combined with an Aquatec 8800 high pressure pump and high pressure low flow misting heads sourced from Reptile Basics. I use singles and doubles (unlike most heads these come on adjustable arms, which is extremely handy). The mist heads and tubing assembles in a snap, as all use John Guest press fittings.

Feed Cycle Instead of feeding every 4-6 hours, this system allows you to feed more frequently, and in much smaller portions, and much lower ppms which combine for explosive growth.

As the plants are eating every 15-25 minutes, they don't need high ppm feedings. I typically use 200 in early veg, 4-500 in mid to late veg, and max of 650 in full flower! This also helps justify D2W, as opposed to recirculating nutes, which screws with rez nute balance and pH. Read up on nutrients and it will soon be clear that recirculating nutes is a bad idea. Anyway, 4 plants in one 15G pod use less than 1 half gallon of nutes in a 24 hour period, so why risk it?

Feed cycle times can vary based on age of plant and whether in veg or flower, but don't attempt this until you have a few grows under your belt: 5 second/15 minute pause works plenty good throughout the entire grow.

NutrientsThe more I read about DIY nutes, the more it comes clear that mj can handle most nute formulas, and grow comparisons suggest that exotic nutes, and bloom boosters, do little to increase yield or quality. That said, cheap newts are not as pure, and can be salt heavy.

Rez I mix 4-5 gallons at a time. My 4G rez has 2 X 4" Sunleaves Oxystones; massive bubbles are created by a Elite 802 (total < $20)

However, as this is a high pressure low flow system, the nutes need to be clean, otherwise your heads will clog. After using FF, Botanicare, Guano, Sea Minerals, Fish Food... I was fighting pH issues and clogs like mad: much of the time my plants were not being fed, and it took its' toll on health and yeild.

I read where DM is one of the few companies specializing in both hydro and mj. I am currently using their full Gold line but may well switch for simplicity's sake to DM ONE + Silica + Zone. FYI, my rez pH has been totally stable.

What impresses me most about this system is its' simplicity. It only takes a few grows to get a feel for it. You can then experiment with feed cycle times/and different nutrient parameters, like using higher pH and warmer nute rez temps during veg in warm climates- the opposite during flower and cold climates.

Let's get this party started. Feel free to ask questions

 

[PhatNuggz]

Lonely Girl: This is my 4th grow developing 21st Century F&D, using a high pressure pump. R&D has been intense.

I have never seen such tric explosion, but this is the first time with this strain. Oddly this explosion took place after moving her from the Bad Boy rig with more HPA aero type feed cycles to the IGE backup system with UFO 90 and 30 second feed time: I just reduced pause from 40 minutes to 30 minutes giving her 25% more feedings. This may or may not help fatten her up.

Maybe 7-10 more days to go

Can you see new roots developing? They are white where the rest are stained from adding (unnecessarily I may add) Neptune Harvest Seaweed Plant Food. I discovered that DM Gold ADD.27 significantly increases P-K.

 

[PhatNuggz]

Next Grow in Progress

I left the 4 new plants in the starter system too long. The IGE timer's minimum on time is 30 seconds which is way too long. In 2 weeks plants whose height at the time was 4-6"s roots reached the bottom of the 14" deep pod. It is common in atomized systems for the roots to take off first, but this could have controlled had I had a short term timer with a minimum of 5 seconds, but less is even better, at least to start.

Here's a pic of the bottom of the pod with both a single and double mist head. What is really good about these is that they articulate, which allows me to make aiming adjustments. Also note the plastic grid on the bottom, which I cut to fit in an effort to keep the roots off the bottom of the pod.

On top of the grid I added lava rock, but not enough to hold back the roots. I will get more rock, but may have to employ the silk screen technique. Curiously, the largest plant (roots to left) is 3Xs bigger than the plant with the roots on the lower right

 

[PhatNuggz]

Keep a Close Eye on Your Rez

First by keeping an eye on rez pH you can learn when it's out of whack.

I had not changed my rez as I D2W, but I did add some Neptune Seaweed Plant Food (0-0-01) a while back, which may have started some benies growing, and clinging to the sidewalls.

My last grow, I was using organic additives/nutes and was having pH and clogging problems. I placed a large net pot filled with lava rock and enclosed in a paint strainer (like panty hose) which gave them a place to grow without floating in the nutes. I still use it as a precaution; good thing too. I also have an inline filter with 200 mesh washable screen. Last grow it was filled with colonies.

Well, I added nutes Saturday, I pHed to 5.8. This morning I checked and they were 4.1! WTF?

Long before adding nutes Saturday, there was some discoloration in the rez and some brown build up along the bottom and side walls below the water line, so I took out the net pot and thoroughly cleaned it, the rocks, the paint strainer was really loaded, and of course the rez walls. I added the nutes back (straining them) and checked pH. It was 5.8. Had I not done this, I would have been adding a good amount of pH up which would have thrown my P balance out of whack enough to effect the N & K, which could lock out the Mg

Moral of the story, watch your pH and clean your rez, at least occasionally.

hth

 

[berryhill]

hey, thanks for the tips my friend, very helpful indeed!

 

[PhatNuggz]

Progress Report

Lonely Girl It's hard to imagine how much she has PHATend up since 3/9 photo

Current Grow all 4 plants were started at the same time. The big one in the middle is BC Bud Mango. The othrs are the last of the supposedly AFs. Only 1-10 actually behaved like an AF, showing balls in 3 weeks. I moved him outside to soil where he hermied, and now has ~ 8 seeds. I wonder whether the seeds will carry his AF trait. Also, is it true hermie seeds tend to be female?

This is an example of what happens when you veg with 30 second feed times. The roots grow long instead of short and fat, like a ball. I had no choice, short of buying a new $100+ timer. I was hoping Lonely Girl would finish sooner than she did. 2 weeks ago I swapped grow areas, putting Lonely Girl in the pod with the 30 second minimum cycle timer. Her roots have barely grown since; makes me think veg is the critical short feed cycle stage.

hth