7w Diodes

[Dunge]

This is the sort of post that I need more of.
For me it is about electric costs.
On the question of penetration:
Do we not want all of the light we provide the plant to be absorbed and converted into biomass. So in a perfect world, no light would make it through the plant. I think this may be why many LED grow pics look so dark. The energy is tuned so as to be taken up by the plants.
Does this make any sense?

 

[Lost]

This is the sort of post that I need more of.
For me it is about electric costs.
On the question of penetration:
Do we not want all of the light we provide the plant to be absorbed and converted into biomass. So in a perfect world, no light would make it through the plant. I think this may be why many LED grow pics look so dark. The energy is tuned so as to be taken up by the plants.
Does this make any sense?

No, because it does not work that way. The more intense the light and the more penetration the bigger the yield. Period. Spectrum be damed. Led companies would be better off giving the leds full power, but then you have an overheating issue.

People can make shit up all they like to make it seem like a good idea, but its not. Its inferior, period. People can bullshit themselvs all they like, and they do.

At least people could say, yea its inferior but I like it and leave it at that. No need to make shit up on why on some planet in a far far away galaxy they work.

People always want to believe they are right when the facts are staring them in the face. Human nature I guess.

 

[budfactorX]

See, that's the issue to begin with.. led's should be at least 75% of what you were using with hid's. 50% is bs.

As for "penetration".. depends on the led's lumen output.. not the wattage. A 1w Cree XP-E Red 630nm has 45.7 - 62 Lumens @ 350mA.. bin depending. "Dorado 1w 624nm" has 32 Lumens @ 350mA. Cheap Chinese has even less.
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=/leds.htm

Obviously more lumens = more penetration. But even with a 250hps in my 18" x 30" SoG cab, maximum 24" plantlets.. I still needed to "shade leaf".. strategic removal of fan leaves, but only when the node has enough growth to sustain itself without a fan leaf... ie: growth has enough foliage to collect the energy it needs.

And just because the manufacturer used a certain percentage of red to blue.. did he take into account that blues traditionally put out 1/2 as many lumens than the reds? That's where using 1w and 3w diodes on same panel actually makes sense. 1w reds set for 100Lm a piece, followed by 3w blues set at 100Lm a piece. .. That may be an issue with some panels right there.. the ratio should be x amount of red lumens compared to x amount of blue lumens.. not x red stars compared to x blue stars.



Cheers............

exactly they shouldn't advertise it as equivalent to 600 if you actually need 450 to match the results which i still think is unlikely.

 

[Spuzzum]

exactly they shouldn't advertise it as equivalent to 600 if you actually need 450 to match the results which i still think is unlikely.

You have to take into account that a plant only uses about 1/2 the wavelengths that an hps puts out, so at least 1/2 that hps is "wasted". And contrary to what Lost is saying about "intensity"... Dunge was right... you're not using every friggin' colour of the sun to grow your plants, only some reds and some blues.. colours that aren't very bright to the human eye, so they do look "darker" than with a hid. Put a meter under them though, and the lumens will suprise you.

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/hpsusableoutput.jpg

 

[Lost]

You have to take into account that a plant only uses about 1/2 the wavelengths that an hps puts out, so at least 1/2 that hps is "wasted". And contrary to what Lost is saying about "intensity"... Dunge was right... you're not using every friggin' colour of the sun to grow your plants, only some reds and some blues.. colours that aren't very bright to the human eye, so they do look "darker" than with a hid. Put a meter under them though, and the lumens will suprise you.

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/hpsusableoutput.jpg

Get off the spectrum thing. Intensity is waaay more important that spectrum. Get over it! Intensity first, then spectrum a distant 2nd... or 3rd, lol..

test grows have been done and proven that spectrum is not nearly as important as led companies lead you to believe. Seriously. Besides lumens are for humans, you need par to make that comparison.

I could go on, but if your a led fanboy, you are going to be blind to its shortfalls. Intensity is what matters. As soon as you embrace that, you will put out weight. Untill then, you are doing less than what you could. It will still grow weed, yes. That does not mean its not a waste of time compared to HPS. Sorry for the butt hurt..

 

[Lost]

You have to take into account that a plant only uses about 1/2 the wavelengths that an hps puts out, so at least 1/2 that hps is "wasted". And contrary to what Lost is saying about "intensity"... Dunge was right... you're not using every friggin' colour of the sun to grow your plants, only some reds and some blues.. colours that aren't very bright to the human eye, so they do look "darker" than with a hid. Put a meter under them though, and the lumens will suprise you.

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/hpsusableoutput.jpg

Futhermore, if the chart you posted were a major player, LED's would dominate HPS, and they do not. They will play second fiddle for HPS for many years to come.

 

[Spuzzum]

if spectrum didn't matter, then you'd use halides the whole way.. but hps gives better results, right? and if it was "just" intensity, well a friggin' halogen's even stronger than an hps.. but wrong spectrum for proper growth.

get over your self bud.. the data's from peeps like Ed Rosenthal and friggin' biology majors at universities.. long before led's were even on the scene. I'm not a fuckin' 1st timer, and I'm not a kid.. I'm pushing 50, and have been doing this since I was 20.


Cheers...........

 

[Lost]

LoL. Good luck with your commercial LED grow.

Real world tests show its bullshit, been thru this before...


Ever seen a commercial greenhouse lit with leds? Didn't think so...

Spectrum does not have the impact ou say or leds would work better. Show me a 4 pound dry weight plant with leds please..


Thats what I thought...

 

[Lost]

By the way, never said it didn't matter, just that it was not as important as intensity by a long shot. Sure, the light spectrum must fall within a rnge that photosythesis can occur. But far more valuable is the intensity of that ligt. Leds dont have the intensity. Like I have said before if you are growing 18 inch plants, the leds will proablly do an OK job at penetration. But when was the last time you a tree grown with leds. I have never seen one. In fact one led MFG that used to be on this site was developing vertical led panels, and as you can see those are taking the tree industry by storm (lol).

 

[geoduck]

as many of you have said, led technology isn't quite where we need it to be.
as far as penetration is concerned, wattage is directly proportional to the amount of lumens, (or you could express it in par to take into account the frequency of the absorbable light). i'd say we need at least 25 watt per diode, or the equivalent of 20 watt per square feet, before it could be seriouly considered as a lighting source. if you wish to be different or perhaps try something new in the spirit of pioneering, you'd have better luck with cmh and induction.

 

[Spuzzum]

You want intensity? Look at what the coral reef community's doing.. replacing 400w metal halides with 3w Cree whites and blues. No, not the same as weed.. but growing coral, in 18" of water.. salt water at that.. and they all say their coral's take off like crazy.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273


And as for 4lb from led's.. well, all depends on how you set up the garden. SoG is best.. trees won't cut it. Though, I've seen trees, there's also a lot more panels.. just look for ledgirl's "journals". She's (he) a scammer, but at least you do see huge plants. Someone more reliable.. IrishBoy.. google "IrishBoy led grows".. pretty impressive. 4lbs? No.. but he's also medical.. need to stay within the numbers.

Not everyone's a greedy fuck, only in it for the money. MANY of us are medical.. who are sick of paying $10 a gram.. even from the clubs. 4oz a month is all many of us need. A 60w led system, in 40cm x 60cm gives a little more than 90g's.. 30z's. That would suit most of us pretty well ;)
http://www.ledgrow.eu/


I tell ya man.. you're sounding like the guys who used to argue that the earth was flat :p


Cheers.................. :D

 

[Lost]

Keep drinking the koolaid buddy :)

 

[Spuzzum]

But... if you want to grow commercially, then led's can still do the job.. as long as it's SoG. If you can grow trees.. great. But can you adapt that knowledge into growing in a way that maximizes the yield in a smaller area.. that's the question ;). You get more per square foot doing SoG than trees over the same time frame it takes those trees. 3 crops of plantlets in the same period of 1 crop of trees.. and no wasted branches that trees produce. Not to mention NO wasted light, as the plantlets are 24" maximum. "Intensity" right to the soil's surface.

2 of the largest grows here in BC were SoG. Replace the hid's and cooltubes with led's, and there ya go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5rvldFoAo8


If you have the skill to begin with, then there's no problem in adapting it to another method. But I guess that's why it's called an "advanced" technique ;).


Cheers...........

 

[Dunge]

I'm an old fart, so when I say that I expect to see something in my lifetime, I'm expecting rapid advancement.
Most of us enthusiasts will buy clones at a greenhouse and set them out in compact SOG with an LED panel just above the green.
What green?, the tent will look almost dark because the lights are tuned to match the reception frequencies of the plants.
You will be able to adjust the power to each family of LEDs to adjust to changing needs of the plant.
Oh, and genetic engineering will allow some plants to pop tasty strawberries that will straight fuck you up.
Pass me that pipe will ya.

 

[Lost]

if spectrum didn't matter, then you'd use halides the whole way..Cheers...........

Not even, HPS produces way more lumens. But your an old fart and already know that. :worried

 

[Spuzzum]

If that's the case, then you'd grow the entire cycle with hps.. from seed. But you don't. Sure, more lumens.. but wrong spectrum for vegging.

If it was just intensity, then using 1w Cree whites are the same, if not more lumens per watt as a 250w hps, 400w hps, 600w hps, and even the 1000w. And the fact that you can get the led's within inches of the plants.. guess what.. your "intensity" just increased.

250w hps = 28-29000 Lumens / 112-116 Lumens per watt.
400w hps = 50000 Lumens / 125 Lumens per watt.
600w hps = 90000 Lumens / 150 Lumens per watt.
1000w hps = 130000 Lumens / 130 Lumens per watt.


That's without the overhead that the ballasts use...

250w hps input= 300w
250w hps output = 250w
----------------------------
28-29000Lm / 300w = 93.3-96.7Lm/W

400w hps input = 470w
400w hps output = 400w
----------------------------
50000Lm / 470w = 106.3Lm/W

600w hps input = 695w
600w hps output = 600w
----------------------------
90000Lm / 695w = 129.4Lm/W

1000w hps input = 1100w
1000w hps output = 1000w
------------------------------
130000Lm / 1100w = 118Lm/W




Cree XP-G Bin Codes:

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/lumens.png

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/bin.png



Farming's a lot more than just light intensity.. whether you want to accept it or not, "spectrum" plays a much more important part when it comes to photosynthesis.. that's something you learn in grade 10 biology. I guess only us old farts can understand this though.. sorry if you're having problems.



Cheers...................

 

[swisscheese]

I tried meds grown under led's once and it was pretty crappy.

 

[Spuzzum]

I tried meds grown under led's once and it was pretty crappy.

Perhaps it was the grower that was "crappy".. everyone with success says way more crystal than with hid......

By the way.. I've had meds from hps.. that was pretty crappy as well. Just 'cause buddy plants some seeds, puts a light over it, and gives it some water.. doesn't mean he knows what the fuck he's doing. And just because someone has "experience", even 2 or 3 years worth.. that doesn't make him a "gardener" if he doesn't understand what he's doing.. and why. Anybody can grow pot.. it's a friggin' weed. But to understand it's growth cycle, and to be able to grow in "any" condition.. that's a farmer. ;)

And if somebody makes an opinion on an "assumption", without actual facts or experience on a subject.. well.. that's just moronic.

 

[Lost]

If that's the case, then you'd grow the entire cycle with hps.. from seed. But you don't. Sure, more lumens.. but wrong spectrum for vegging.

If it was just intensity, then using 1w Cree whites are the same, if not more lumens per watt as a 250w hps, 400w hps, 600w hps, and even the 1000w. And the fact that you can get the led's within inches of the plants.. guess what.. your "intensity" just increased.

250w hps = 28-29000 Lumens / 112-116 Lumens per watt.
400w hps = 50000 Lumens / 125 Lumens per watt.
600w hps = 90000 Lumens / 150 Lumens per watt.
1000w hps = 130000 Lumens / 130 Lumens per watt.


That's without the overhead that the ballasts use...

250w hps input= 300w
250w hps output = 250w
----------------------------
28-29000Lm / 300w = 93.3-96.7Lm/W

400w hps input = 470w
400w hps output = 400w
----------------------------
50000Lm / 470w = 106.3Lm/W

600w hps input = 695w
600w hps output = 600w
----------------------------
90000Lm / 695w = 129.4Lm/W

1000w hps input = 1100w
1000w hps output = 1000w
------------------------------
130000Lm / 1100w = 118Lm/W




Cree XP-G Bin Codes:

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/lumens.png

http://i851.invalid.com/albums/ab80/thereal_spuzzum/bin.png



Farming's a lot more than just light intensity.. whether you want to accept it or not, "spectrum" plays a much more important part when it comes to photosynthesis.. that's something you learn in grade 10 biology. I guess only us old farts can understand this though.. sorry if you're having problems.



Cheers...................

gtfo, I grew with HPS from seed or clone to end of flower for years. I do like the internode spacing with dual-arcs better in veg these days.


Senile old man :fighting0084:


hehehehehe :)

 

[Lost]

The 1000w bulbs are 145,000 lumens BTW :)