Advice for a good finish.

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AlexGrowns

AlexGrowns

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They didn't look bad/stressed. I wouldn't have guessed you were struggling with anything. I used Gen Hydro's 3-part nutes when I began growing. But, I was in soilless (Pro-Mix HP without any amendments... just 25% more perlite; so it was organically inactive). I didn't monitor runoff ppms then. It grew well. I had some burn. I followed the "useless" schedule (it's on the growkind forum, if you google for it. It's halfway between the label strength vs the customary half strength people do.).

If you're in soil (not soilless), I'd recommend that you switch to a fertilizer for soil, promoting microbial activity, etc.). I never fed the hydro 3-part in soil. But, I believe (and from what I've read from others) it's far from optimal for soil. It's purely synthetic, chelated, doesn't require soil microbes to participate with the roots. (Just like hydro growers don't put soil fertilizers in their systems.). Soil is supposed to be *dirty*. ("I soiled myself."). The words (soil and dirt) mean something. You want to promote that kind of life. It will interact with the roots. I think hydro nutrients are the wrong direction in that regard. They're not healthy for the microbes. You might not be able to get entirely away from synthetic nutrients (all-in-one, direct-feed vs amended into the soil) probably have some. But, much of the nutrients can be organically source (urea for N, guano for P. K's always a tough one for me. People use wood ashes. But, I like to be more direct-feed and aware of the NPK ratio I'm giving. I use a Silica Blast product in veg for K. And, potassium sulfate in flower. Langbeinite in flower some times if I need more magnesium.).

Anyway, I think you'd be happy (if you're in soil) using Jack's Classic. Many people use that. (JR Peters makes a citrus ratio and bloom ratio. You can mix those with Classic's 1-1-1 ratio to get custom veg/bloom ratios. (I have a spreadsheet that makes it easy to figure out. I can give that to you.). I use Grow More - Sea Grow. It's more organically-sourced than Jacks (it has blood meal, kelp, yucca). I mix my Sea Grow with various things to create my own NPK ratios for veg/flower. I can give you my "schedule." It's more like a menu. I can use various things to reach the desired ratio.

Be prepared to feed less in soil. I was feeding 900-1200ppm in soilless. When I switched to soil (and Sea Grow), I mixed my nutrients about that strong. I didn't see leaf burn, so I assumed it was correct. (Synthetic/chelated nutrients are instantly available. I think you get feedback from the leaves in that case. Soil nutrients depend on the microbes.). But, early flower I had salt buildup & lockout (acid soil). The unused nutrients were building up in the soil. It took awhile to figure that out. (That's when I discovered runoff ppm tracks that. I found the strength which doesn't spin out of control. Runoff volume is an important part of this too. I think I have more runoff than most people. I can go a little weaker & lower runoff. Or, stronger & higher runoff.).

Anyway, you don't need proprietary multi-bottle "lineups." You can supplement a not-so-sexy fertilizer product with various things to improve it. (The spreadsheet I mentioned lets you unwind those "lineups" to see the NPK ratio they produce each week. Recreate that with generic things found locally.).
I do use chicken manure part of the vegging and it seems to work amazingly but my last grow before this when I switched to flowering and used bone meal ect (very hard to break down and takes a long time) and it didn't turn out well maybe overfertilized... so I switched to hydro nutes, your post makes a lot of sense (i used chicken manure and worm compost and used soil with myco then blasted it wth hydro nutes lol I guess it didn't make sense.

So guess hydro nutes are for hydro only... makes sense maybe they even hurt the microbiome kinda thing?

The reason for going hydro nutes was (Is a cal def? too much nitogen? How much potassium do I need?) I wanted to replce these questions with is it hungry or not and have a banalnced feed, I wanted to eliminate a variable I guess but maybe it wasn't for the best. but I guess it's more the root systme and bacteria break down what they need so maybe I don't have to be too picky about the ratios in soil?

How often do you ammend your soil? I know you offered your shedule maybe I could look at that to get an idea for a starting point.

So should I use a general guideline for fertilizing then anaylze my ppm runoff?

Thanks for the info bro.
 
az2000

az2000

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when I switched to flowering and used bone meal ect (very hard to break down and takes a long time) and it didn't turn out well maybe overfertilized...

I think bone meal is available fairly quickly. The problem was probably using too much; not thinking about the NPK ratio you were creating; the strength. Sometimes people flip the lights to 12/12 and immediately switch to a bloom nutrient. That's much too soon. It should be eased into. (Or, don't adjust any of this stuff. Just feed an NPK ratio 1-1-1 from veg to harvest. It works fine. My Grow More - Sea Grow is 1-1-1. Jacks Classic is 1-1-1.). If you're going to increase N in veg, and P in flower, you should definitely use the spreadsheet so you know what you're creating.

Or, use a soil with everything amended into it. What I do is something of a hybrid between a complete soil and soilless. I don't want much stuff in the soil. I want it to be light, fast drying. I "force feed" it like I would soilless (but not as strong; using soil fertilizer, not hydro). I.e., I feed it each watering, and enough for a significant amount of runoff (replacing the build up in the soil with fresh, balanced nutrients. Sort of like hydro does when making a new reservoir). And, I try to use organic sources of nutrients. I try to be mindful of how stuff affects the soil. (I use gypsum and langbeinite to treat ca and mg def instead of nitrate-based "calmag." It might be a small difference. But, little things add up.).

so I switched to hydro nutes, your post makes a lot of sense (i used chicken manure and worm compost and used soil with myco then blasted it wth hydro nutes lol I guess it didn't make sense.

Maybe it would make sense to continue using GH 3-part, but switch to soilless media (like Pro-Mix HP + 25% perlite). That's a good combination. I think it's perfect for a new grower. There's not many variables involved. Just follow the "useless" schedule (mentioned in my last post, but maybe 10% weaker).

How often do you ammend your soil? I know you offered your shedule maybe I could look at that to get an idea for a starting point.

I mix my soil 50-60% Pro-Mix HP / 20-25% Kellogg's Patio Plus potting mix / 20-25% perlite.

That's not an amended soil (other than the potting mix being such a thing, already made). It's hardly a "soil." It's a very light soil. Just enough soil that it's not soilless. Some dirt to promote micobial activity. But, it dries in 2-3 days after a plant's grown into the container. I lift the container to know when to feed. It should feel very light (alarmingly light). If the leaves wilt, it's too dry. They bounce back in 20 minutes after watering. (It's actually useful to do that once in veg to know what "too dry" feels like when you lift the container. I try to be 4-8 hours away from that. That one-time stress isn't bad compared to the more common keeping it too wet; watering too frequently.).

I also mix 1.5 Tbsp Fertilome Hi-Yield Agricultural Lime (dolomite) per 1 gallon of soil. (I do something a little different than this. I should document it and put it with the feeding schedule.).

The Patio Plus potting mix isn't sexy. I'm not in love with the wood chips it adds to the soil. I'd like to experiment with something else to reduce the wood chips (compost or worm castings; Kellogg Palm & Cactus mix has a nice sandy texture. I've been wanting to try that someday.). I want to retain the light soil. The cactus mix might be too soilless. Compost & worm castings might take me too far into the soil realm. Patio Plus works very well (in the proportion I use it. It's too hot by itself). The wood chips probably don't matter. When I mix the product, I spend some time breaking wood chips, splitting them with the grain to make them smaller. I try not to be too OCD about it. But, there can be a few large chips. Instead of throwing them away, I'll break them up. (If I were a cash cropper growing a room full of plants, that would be an unwanted waste of time. But, as a hobby... it's not bad.).

This forum post shows the consistency of my resulting mix.

So should I use a general guideline for fertilizing then anaylze my ppm runoff?

I don't know how universally this applies to different soils and nutrients. All I know is: when I switched from soilless (to the light soil above, and to the Sea Grow fertilizer), my runoff PPMs grow gradually in veg. (400, 500, 700, 1100). It seems like a gradual rise for 6 weeks. But, in transition, late transition... it becomes twitchy. It will reach 1400-1600. It doesn't seem to take much to go to 1800, 2000, 2200. I don't know why that is. It seems easier to move than in veg (not that I think it needs to be moved in veg. I don't pay much attention to it then).

What I found is that 1600-1800 is a good range to be in during flower. 2400-2500 is where I get lockout. So, if I see it go to 2000, I mix a larger volume for more runoff (a mini-flush). If the runoff reaches 2200 I'm not far from serious trouble. I'll mix half-strength nutrients and more volume for runoff.

I find my soil ph tracks that runoff PPM. And, like I said 1400-1800 is a good place to be. In mid- to late-flower I'll be more 1600-1800'ish. Early lower might be more like 1400-1600.

But, I don't pay much attention to it now. I'll measure it occasionally as a sanity check. I pretty much know the strength/volume to use. I use more volume than most people. That's my insurance. I'll occasionally (every 2 weeks?) mix a bit more volume for more runoff. With the strength I use, I know the amount of runoff that keeps it from building up (high runoff ppms).

My feeding schedule is attached to the above linked forum post. (The feeding schedule contains a link to the Product Mixer spreadsheet.).

You can follow that exactly. Or, be inspired to do something different. If you create a richer/amended soil, I'd be nervous about how much to feed with water.
 
Last edited:
AlexGrowns

AlexGrowns

190
43
I think bone meal is available fairly quickly. The problem was probably using too much, not thinking about the NPK ratio you were creating, the strength. Sometimes people flip the lights to 12/12 and immediately switch to a bloom nutrient. That's much too soon. It should be eased into. (Or, don't adjust any of this stuff. Just feed an NPK ratio 1-1-1 from veg to harvest. It works fine. My Grow More - Sea Grow is 1-1-1. Jacks Classic is 1-1-1.). If you're going to increase N in veg, and P in flower, you should definitely use the spreadsheet so you know what you're creating.

Or, use a soil with everything amended into it. What I do is something of a hybrid between a complete soil and soilless. I don't want much stuff in the soil. I want it to be light, fast drying. I "force feed" it like I would soilless (but not as strong, an using soil fertilizer not hydro). I.e., I feed it each watering, and do a significant amount of runoff (replacing the build up in the soil with fresh, balanced nutrients. Sort of like hydro does when making a new reservoir). And, I try to use organic sources of nutrients. I try to be mindful of how stuff affects the soil. (I use gypsum and langbeinite to treat ca and mg def instead of nitrate-based "calmag." It might be a small difference. But, little things add up.).



Maybe it would make sense to continue using GH 3-part, but switch to soilless media (like Pro-Mix HP + 25% perlite). That's a good combination. I think it's perfect for a new grower. There's not many variables involved. Just follow the "useless" schedule (mentioned in my last post, but maybe 10% weaker).



I mix my soil 50-60% Pro-Mix HP / 20-25% Kellogg's Patio Plus potting mix / 20-25% perlite. It's not an amended soil (other than the potting mix being such a thing, already made). It's hardly a soil. It's a very light soil. Just enough soil that it's not soilless. Some dirt to promote micobial activity. But, it dries in 2-3 days after a plant's grown into the container. I lift the container to know when to feed. It should feel very light (alarmingly light). If the leaves wilt, it's too dry. They bounce back in 20 minutes after watering. It's actually useful to do that once in veg to know what "too dry" feels like when you lift the container. I try to be 4-8 hours away from that.

I also mix 1.5 Tbsp Fertilome Hi-Yield Agricutlural Lime (dolomite) per 1 gallon of soil. (I do something a little different than this. I should document it and put it with the feeding schedule.).

The Patio Plus potting mix isn't sexy. I'm not in love with the wood chips it adds to the soil. I'd like to experiment with something else to reduce the wood chips (compost or worm castings; Kellogg Palm & Cactus mix has a nice sandy texture. I've been wanting to try that someday.). I want to retain the light soil. The cactus mix might be too soilless. Compost & worm castings might take me too far into the soil realm. Patio Plus works very well (in the proportion I use it. It's too hot by itself). The wood chips probably don't matter. When I mix the product, I spend some time breaking wood chips, splitting them with the grain to make them smaller. I try not to be too OCD about it. But, there can be a few large chips. Instead of throwing them away, I'll break them up. (If I were a cash cropper growing a roomfull of plants, that would be an unwanted waste of time. But, as a hobby... it's not bad.).

This forum post shows the consistency of my resulting mix.



I don't know how universally this applies to different soils and nutrients. All I know is: when I switched from soilless (to the light soil above, and to the Sea Grow fertilizer), my runoff PPMs grow gradually in veg. (400, 500, 700, 1100). It seems like a gradual rise for 6 weeks. But, in transition, late transition... it becomes very twitchy. It will reach 1400-1600. It doesn't seem to take much to go to 1800, 2000, 2200. I don't know why that is. It seems easier to move than in veg (not that I think it needs to be moved in veg. I don't pay much attention to it then).

What I found is that 1600-1800 is a goo range to be in during flower. 2400-2500 is where I get lockout. So, if I see it go to 2000, I mix a larger volume for more runoff (a mini-flush). If the runoff reaches 2200 I'm not far from serious trouble. I'll mix half-strengh nutrients an more volume for runoff.

I find my soil ph tracks that runoff PPM. And, like I said 1400-1800 is a good place to be. In mid- to late-flower I start doing more 1600-1800'ish. Early lower might be more like 1400-1600.

But, I don't pay much attention to it now. I'll measure it occasionally as a sanity check. I pretty much know the strength/volume to use. I use more volume than most people. That's my insurance. I'll occasionally (every 2 weeks?) mix a bit more volume for more runoff. With the strength I use, I know the amount of runoff that keeps it from building up (high runoff ppms).

My feeding schedule is attached to the above linked forum post. (The feeding schedule contains a link to the Product Mixer spreadsheet.).

You can follow that exactly. Or, be inspired to do something different. If you create a richer/amended soil, I'd be nervous about how much to feed with water.
I'm going to get into your post later, I kind of try to go by the plant, my plant shows sex and flowers for a few weeks before I switch the lights, day 1 of flowering it has flowers all over and many white hairs... the basic info on the web shows this happening 2 weeks after switching, so I guess I try to gauge what it needs when... almost like the basic info online teaches you how to get to the end safely and take forever, I want to.

One observation I made from my fast and hard theory was blasting the seeds/seedlings with heat/light seems to skip 2 weeks of of the seedling stage and early vegging, f*cked up the end but I want to learn how to grow as fast and big as possible.

My theory is that the people that grow giant great buds fast aren't genies if you do exactly what they do you will get the same results not magic or secrets, I want to get 20 years of experience in 1 year. Man talking to you guys seemed to get me +5 years experience instantly.

I like your suggestion to use soiless media with the 3 part nutes.

Is it true that hydro = faster but less forgiving (i.e. soil is like a buffer for minor mistakes with heat/nutes ect) Or is there bigger pros and cons? I may do a small scale hydro experiment with tomatoes dial it in first with a low value crop then try with weed.

Again I skimmed your message and in a few hours I'll have no distractions and will dive in better, just love talking to you guys about this, I got one grow buddy and it's thw only reason I have a ps4, play with him and chat about growing lol I really appreciate your long messages with details and tips and will reply properly in a few hours.
 
az2000

az2000

965
143
Is it true that hydro = faster but less forgiving (i.e. soil is like a buffer for minor mistakes with heat/nutes ect) Or is there bigger pros and cons?

I've never grown hydro. I think the reason for using hydro is its economy of scale. You can treat 20-40 plants like one plant (instead of watering 20-40 soil containers). I don't think there's a reason to use hydro for 4 plants. (But, I'm sure people do that. There are variations for small scale. Hydroton. Hempy bucket.).

Soilless is in between soil an hydro. I don't know what the benefit is (one over the other two). To me, the only benefit is that it's simple, fewer variables. You're more in the driver's seat force-feeding nutrients (like hydro). The media just holds the roots. It doesn't create a rhizosphere. You're more directly connected to the roots (feeding them) than soil. Doesn't suffer from the common Fox Farm slow-drying (which causes too frequent watering, staying too wet).

There are many people who say hydro (synthetic) nutes cause harsh smoke. Many people say that's not possible. When I switched from soilless (GH 3-part bottles ) to my light soil (and organic-heavy Sea Grow fertilizer), me and my friends noticed a very substantial difference in taste. The smoke was smoother, richer, earthy. It didn't have the bright and sharp taste (which, to me, translates into that hit in the back of the throat which causes coughing).

Sometimes I get a hold of some dispensary bud and think I like that bright/sharp taste better. But, it's definitely harsher than what I grow.
 
AlexGrowns

AlexGrowns

190
43
I've never grown hydro. I think the reason for using hydro is its economy of scale. You can treat 20-40 plants like one plant (instead of watering 20-40 soil containers). I don't think there's a reason to use hydro for 4 plants. (But, I'm sure people do that. There are variations for small scale. Hydroton. Hempy bucket.).

Soilless is in between soil an hydro. I don't know what the benefit is (one over the other two). To me, the only benefit is that it's simple, fewer variables. You're more in the driver's seat force-feeding nutrients (like hydro). The media just holds the roots. It doesn't create a rhizosphere. You're more directly connected to the roots (feeding them) than soil. Doesn't suffer from the common Fox Farm slow-drying (which causes too frequent watering, staying too wet).

There are many people who say hydro (synthetic) nutes cause harsh smoke. Many people say that's not possible. When I switched from soilless (GH 3-part bottles ) to my light soil (and organic-heavy Sea Grow fertilizer), me and my friends noticed a very substantial difference in taste. The smoke was smoother, richer, earthy. It didn't have the bright and sharp taste (which, to me, translates into that hit in the back of the throat which causes coughing).

Sometimes I get a hold of some dispensary bud and think I like that bright/sharp taste better. But, it's definitely harsher than what I grow.
That makes sene treating 20 as 1, but I thought it could brwath oxygen 100% of the time(drip or dwc) I thought that was the whole allure but I guesz until you do it its all an unkown, yeah I agree the stuff I had outdoor was super tangy and warthy and the hydro had a bit of a sharp taste maybe a flushing thing or maybe soil is aomehow "healthier".

Anyways here's some pics of my freakout crop it down blunder from the other day lol

First pic plant in the back left in dark.

Second pic most of the two ones showing "nanners"

Third pic one of the "nanners" plants befroe chops

Last pic smaller buds to b chopped later.

I'll update soon try to get some close ups, i'm kicking myself for not going another week or two probably would have doubed yield/and or quality.
 
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