Aquaponics - Let fish be your Nutrient!

[ttystikk]

Yeeaah.. I think you got my knowledge base covered as well.
I am going to start tinkering a lot with the system, in bigger scale.
Got the new house we was looking at, big house with a huge garden in Barcelona.

The Black Moor took its last swim today, found it flouting around in the current, with the comets strangely surrounding it like a wake or something. I think it was the bouncing pH that took care of him. I try not to adjust it too much, but as the system behaves I really do not have much choice in the matter.

.2-.3 drop each day, and with a rise in PPM of 10-30 a day it is hard to not use the regular tap water to adjust the pH also, since it is so rich in solids.

Will take a trip to the HydroStore to find some pH up that works with AP.
The upcoming weeks I have lot of other stuff to take care of so I really just want to complete this run in a simple but effective manner.

Ask about silica; if Pro-tekt isn't toxic to fish, that stuff is serious about pH up and buffering.

 

[Seamaiden]

I don't think it is, but I'd have to double-check (or, experiment with feeder guppies, that's how I've tested out a *lot* of systems).

Yeeaah.. I think you got my knowledge base covered as well.
I am going to start tinkering a lot with the system, in bigger scale.
Got the new house we was looking at, big house with a huge garden in Barcelona.

The Black Moor took its last swim today, found it flouting around in the current, with the comets strangely surrounding it like a wake or something. I think it was the bouncing pH that took care of him. I try not to adjust it too much, but as the system behaves I really do not have much choice in the matter.

.2-.3 drop each day, and with a rise in PPM of 10-30 a day it is hard to not use the regular tap water to adjust the pH also, since it is so rich in solids.

Will take a trip to the HydroStore to find some pH up that works with AP.
The upcoming weeks I have lot of other stuff to take care of so I really just want to complete this run in a simple but effective manner.

Aw... Rest in peace, little black moor.

Don't let ppm scare you in regards to the fish, seriously. It is much more important to keep pH stable, although IME movement of less than one full point generally doesn't cause harm to fish like the goldies, not even most fancies will suffer. If you had a tankful of cardinal tetras, that'd kill 'em quick, for sure, but I'm not so sure about that being the case with the little black moor. If it was an all of a sudden type of thing, if you've got the stomach for it, necropsy the fish, see if it's got internal parasites or was constipated. Those little squashed bodies cause suffering for the animal, and sensitivities that the more naturally-formed Comets don't suffer.

Oh, and a note on keeping fancies with pond comets--come spring, the more fit fish often kill the fancy fish. They get this whole "love is in the water" thing going on and then things get rough and a little fancy gets bumped around a lot harder than they can actually take. It happens as the weather, and water, is warming up.

 

[ttystikk]

The tank I'm planning will be sizeable, enough so that changing my pH or my EC will take time and a determined effort. This is a very conscious design decision, to create some chemical inertia in the system and thus buffer the fish.

This first tank will likely be a cold water (65F or less) environment, as I don't have a hot side water circuit to heat a warm water tank as yet. I'm betting this will significantly slow the biological activity of the tank, so I'm installing my cold water heat exchange coil in the settling tank- the first tank the water sees after it comes out of the tank. This coil has my chiller water running through it, and will be fed by water from downstream of all the heat exchangers from indoors. When the tank water is cold enough, this could well cool my chiller water enough that the chiller doesn't have to run much, or possibly at all!

To put hard numbers to this, I'm expecting the return side of my chiller circuit to average 62-65. If the water coming in is 55, I bet the water volume of the chiller circuit would heat this incoming stream to the same low 60s value.

Chiller water- and RDWC water- in the low 60s sounds perfect, all winter. It will remain this temperature or rise slightly on the rest of its journey through the biofilter and various RDWC. Thus, as it returns it will contribute to keeping the tank temperature up during cold weather. Next spring I will shade the tank first, then work on active cooling measures to reduce the temp of that large volume of water by enough to offset the heat the next day.

There is no way a temperature fluctuation will go unnoticed by the fish, so my question is how fast can the temperature change and not hurt the fish? I would be shocked, for instance, if I could change the temperature of that large volume of water more than one degree an hour, maybe two if all conditions are perfect.

 

[ThePreacher]

Those are likely fungus gnats- and fungus gnat larvae.

The bugs I was concerned about would be on the leaves, directly causing the chewed look. It looks like you have some sort of deficiency, maybe not enough mass of fish to provide for adequate nutrition?

I have not seen any of those typical bugs that eat the nuts from the leafs and lay their eggs there.

Do the fungus Gnats look very different during their lifespan? Like young adults are quite different in size and shape, do not fly very well, have different looking wings than the adults that look very much like regular mosquitos ?

But if it is indeed a nutrient issue, would I not see the same deficiencies at the other ones as well ? This is where my theories halt and do not make much sense, in a logical way at least.

I don't think it is, but I'd have to double-check (or, experiment with feeder guppies, that's how I've tested out a *lot* of systems).


Aw... Rest in peace, little black moor.

Don't let ppm scare you in regards to the fish, seriously. It is much more important to keep pH stable, although IME movement of less than one full point generally doesn't cause harm to fish like the goldies, not even most fancies will suffer. If you had a tankful of cardinal tetras, that'd kill 'em quick, for sure, but I'm not so sure about that being the case with the little black moor. If it was an all of a sudden type of thing, if you've got the stomach for it, necropsy the fish, see if it's got internal parasites or was constipated. Those little squashed bodies cause suffering for the animal, and sensitivities that the more naturally-formed Comets don't suffer.

Oh, and a note on keeping fancies with pond comets--come spring, the more fit fish often kill the fancy fish. They get this whole "love is in the water" thing going on and then things get rough and a little fancy gets bumped around a lot harder than they can actually take. It happens as the weather, and water, is warming up.

I was running the PPM in the 12-1400 range, and my Cannabis plants were suffering, not the fish. Doing a water change and getting it down to 300-700 range was actually something that got them in to shape.
I am fighting time atm so I am not going to experiment with the PPM, but next run I will like to test having healthy plants with the low PPM and THEN raising it to see the outcome.

The Blackie received a fast and simple wake in the bathroom before being sent to the sewer-gators.
If / when another fish dies I will check it out a little.

Great idea about the guppies, will get a small test aquarium for testing of different stuff. If the guppies survives a 3 week period so will the Comets / Koi for sure ?

 

[ThePreacher]

The tank I'm planning will be sizeable, enough so that changing my pH or my EC will take time and a determined effort. This is a very conscious design decision, to create some chemical inertia in the system and thus buffer the fish.

This first tank will likely be a cold water..........

Great prospect!
Have you already started the building at all ? Would love to see some plan or garden pictures.

I will as well start working on a big scale outdoor system when we finely move in to the big house. It has a greenhouse in the garden where I was thinking of adding a big FT, 1000 gallon or so, perhaps even bigger.
The greenhouse has automatic shade roof, but even with that I recon the temp would easily be to high for the fish, with the outdoor temp during high season up in the 35+ celcius.

Then again, it will creep down in the 5-10 celcius during "winter".

Gonna make a outline drawing of the garden with measurement after we move there.
Will need some planning.

 

[WalterWhiteFire]

AP is cool stuff guys! Quick question.... If I use river water to water my plants would it have similar benefits to AP? Was thinking of starting my vegging plants on a river water regiment. I know it's full of fish cuz I watch fisherman, osprey and Herron pull out hogs on the daily. What would you call it if its not hydroponics? cuz i could just put fish in my Blumat res and top drip my soil? Cool thread !

 

[ttystikk]

AP is cool stuff guys! Quick question.... If I use river water to water my plants would it have similar benefits to AP? Was thinking of starting my vegging plants on a river water regiment. I know it's full of fish cuz I watch fisherman, osprey and Herron pull out hogs on the daily. What would you call it if its not hydroponics? cuz i could just put fish in my Blumat res and top drip my soil? Cool thread !

Not enough nutes in the river water here, and the dissolved solids will clog your blumats. I'm going to run those dissolved solids through a biofilter and then straight through my RDWC, where all the orifices are 1" dia.

 

[ttystikk]

I have not seen any of those typical bugs that eat the nuts from the leafs and lay their eggs there.

Do the fungus Gnats look very different during their lifespan? Like young adults are quite different in size and shape, do not fly very well, have different looking wings than the adults that look very much like regular mosquitos ?

But if it is indeed a nutrient issue, would I not see the same deficiencies at the other ones as well ? This is where my theories halt and do not make much sense, in a logical way at least.




I was running the PPM in the 12-1400 range, and my Cannabis plants were suffering, not the fish. Doing a water change and getting it down to 300-700 range was actually something that got them in to shape.
I am fighting time atm so I am not going to experiment with the PPM, but next run I will like to test having healthy plants with the low PPM and THEN raising it to see the outcome.

The Blackie received a fast and simple wake in the bathroom before being sent to the sewer-gators.
If / when another fish dies I will check it out a little.

Great idea about the guppies, will get a small test aquarium for testing of different stuff. If the guppies survives a 3 week period so will the Comets / Koi for sure ?

Not so hard for one plant to suffer while another in the same water thrives. I'd the plant that's suffering under direct light? If so, that will cause it to be the first to show deficiencies, since its using water faster than the rest.

 

[ttystikk]

Great prospect!
Have you already started the building at all ? Would love to see some plan or garden pictures.

I will as well start working on a big scale outdoor system when we finely move in to the big house. It has a greenhouse in the garden where I was thinking of adding a big FT, 1000 gallon or so, perhaps even bigger.
The greenhouse has automatic shade roof, but even with that I recon the temp would easily be to high for the fish, with the outdoor temp during high season up in the 35+ celcius.

Then again, it will creep down in the 5-10 celcius during "winter".

Gonna make a outline drawing of the garden with measurement after we move there.
Will need some planning.

Still in the design phase. Fish tank will be 2' high x 7' diameter, 560 gallons. I haven't gotten a lot further yet.

 

[Seamaiden]

Preacher, gups and goldies have about the same hardiness, except the gups are a little less tolerant of colder water conditions. They also don't produce as much waste as goldies, and that's for a few reasons. Body mass is one, but also the fact that they don't produce body slime to the same degree has a huge impact.

AP is cool stuff guys! Quick question.... If I use river water to water my plants would it have similar benefits to AP? Was thinking of starting my vegging plants on a river water regiment. I know it's full of fish cuz I watch fisherman, osprey and Herron pull out hogs on the daily. What would you call it if its not hydroponics? cuz i could just put fish in my Blumat res and top drip my soil? Cool thread !

If your plants are still in soil, then it's still soil growing. The whole thing with aquaponics is that the nitrogen, starting in the form of NH4, that is produced by the biota in the system is what's feeding the plants. However, that said, I personally think it could be a good thing if soil could be incorporated to make it a more whole or complete system, it would/could better mimic natural processes. How that would be achieved might be a trick, though, in my head keeping jellyfish is easier.

 

[ThePreacher]

Not so hard for one plant to suffer while another in the same water thrives. I'd the plant that's suffering under direct light? If so, that will cause it to be the first to show deficiencies, since its using water faster than the rest.

It is a 1 square meter tent, with a 400w HydroGrow LED and a 400w HPS. The one that is showing the most of deficiencies are under the LED, but the other one under LED are the biggest of the 5 and do not show any signs AT ALL. Weird stuff. :confused:

 

[ThePreacher]

Not enough nutes in the river water here, and the dissolved solids will clog your blumats. I'm going to run those dissolved solids through a biofilter and then straight through my RDWC, where all the orifices are 1" dia.

I would think that the river water, with added nuts would be awesome. Should be better than tap water which should go through some kind of treatment IMO.

 

[ttystikk]

I would think that the river water, with added nuts would be awesome. Should be better than tap water which should go through some kind of treatment IMO.

Wait a minute, you changed the question! Running the river thru your RDWC well not give you enough buttress. Using river water as your base and adding nutes to it would be great!

 

[ThePreacher]

Bad news .. Obviously the neighbor have been kept awake by the ventilation and other stuff for several months now without even mention it when we have met in the hallway, and when our landlord came by to pick up the rent he told us about the situation. The land lord threaten to call the cops and stuff.

Even tho it is legal to grow for own use in Spain, I don't want the cops on my door. Especially when we are moving to big house in 10 days.

So tomorrow I will temporary move the aquaponic system to another flat for 10 day, quite a hussle, but seeing the buds starting to grow quite well, I do not have the heart to shut the system down.

Will hopefully get some pictures up and running after setting the system up at the temp. location.

When I am moving the system, how much water should I save from the fish tank and add to the tank after setting it back up ?
I recon as much as possible, but 30-50% would be ok ?

 

[stutter]

how did i miss this thread? glad i found it.

hey preacher hows things?

with the PH the best way to adjust PH up in your aquaponics system is by adding Potassium Hydroxide. it adds much needed potassium and is safe for the fish and plants. Ok so now your wondering where the hell do i get Potassium Hydroxide? its regular hydro store PHup. check the bottle but hydro store PH up is Potassium Hydroxide.

 

[stutter]

and try to aim for a PH of 7-8. i think keeping happy fish and bacteria should be the priority, the plants dont seem to mind the higher PH at all maybe due to the organic nature but they seem to be able to handle higher Ph levels up around 7 much like soil plants do without anything going on.

i played with lower PH around 5.5 - 6 for a while thinking the plants would like it better but the fish looked sad just hanging around down the bottom of the tank and going off there food a bit. the higher PH is better

 

[ThePreacher]

Hey Stutt! Glad to see you!
If you haven figured it out, I go by the name peoples on other forums ;)

I know that in HP the ideal pH is 5.8, since this make the most balanced trace elements availability, but I think you are right when calculating somewhat different when measuring micro bacteria nutrients.

The fish have been diagnosed with severe depression for some time now. Hopefully I can save them from certain suicide and nurture them back to a healthy and happy life.
They did pretty fine when the pH was around 6-6.5 so I think that is going to be my first goal.
What I am pretty certain about is that AP is something one have to figure out with a lot of try and fail, even tho I get lots of good information via these types of forums, people have different experience and advises.

Main goal pH-vice is to have something in the FT that self stabilizes the pH and also provides something something yummy for the plants =)

 

[stutter]

I recognised your setup straight away :)

The fish depression is something I experienced when I was running my ph low. Just didnt swim much and hid a lot. They werent as keen on there dinner. After correcting my ph the fish got happy again. I highly recommend going between 7-8 ph your fish will thank you and honestly it really wont bother the plants. In fact happier fish eat more and poo more and thats what its all about really.

Im adding a second grow bed to my veggie garden Ap this weekend and once my current coco ganja grow ends im building the aquaponics system to end all systems. Just havnt decided what thats going to look like yet?

 

[Seamaiden]

Stutter, fantastic advice, and thanks for popping into this thread.

Bad news .. Obviously the neighbor have been kept awake by the ventilation and other stuff for several months now without even mention it when we have met in the hallway, and when our landlord came by to pick up the rent he told us about the situation. The land lord threaten to call the cops and stuff.

Even tho it is legal to grow for own use in Spain, I don't want the cops on my door. Especially when we are moving to big house in 10 days.

So tomorrow I will temporary move the aquaponic system to another flat for 10 day, quite a hussle, but seeing the buds starting to grow quite well, I do not have the heart to shut the system down.

Will hopefully get some pictures up and running after setting the system up at the temp. location.

When I am moving the system, how much water should I save from the fish tank and add to the tank after setting it back up ?
I recon as much as possible, but 30-50% would be ok ?

Ah! In that area, I am literally a professional--all I did for years was shipping fish, plants, anything aquatic.

You won't need to save all that much water, that's not that important (unless you just put a bunch of fertilizer in it), in fact, if it's pH and temperature-matched, you can essentially perform a 100% water change. What IS extremely important, most important, is that everything that is housing your biological filter remain as intact as possible. You can jumble it up, it can be turned and such, but DO NOT let it dry out.

 

[stutter]

thats going into the dusty corners of my brain for later use thanks seamaiden