Athena + Promix = Nothing but Problems

[99problems]

Hi all, I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this.

I’ve been growing for over 10 years. Breeding and making feminized seeds just for myself & friends for over 8 years.
Successfully ran an outdoor farm with over 200 plants one season. I've grown with soil in every kind of environment, indoor outdoor and never had any problems I couldn't solve. I’ve even taught people how to grow who are doing very well.

Ever since I’ve tried to go in a new simpler / cleaner direction this year - it’s been an absolute nightmare, and it's almost destroyed my love for gardening.
The girls never look happy at all. It’s just become a daily source of agony. This post is the very last thing I expected to do, but sometimes we all need help.

Symptoms - constant drooping/wilting no matter if the medium is dry or wet, dull matte lifeless / brittle leaves, weird twisty, deformed leaves, oddly crimped leaves, purple stems not from genetics, just about every deficiency possible. Nothing seems to be helping. There’s 2-3 diff strains (all indica leaning) and they’re all having the exact same issues from the start.

I try to keep a decent log, so let me bring you up to speed.

Medium - Promix MP
Feeding - Every Watering

Nutrients (in mixing order)-
+Silica - 2/3 ml/g
+CalMag - 2ml/g (organic no nitrates)
+Athena Pro Line (so far just the veg "Core" and "Grow")
+TNB PH down
+Non Ionic Wetting Agent - Added last (at recommended dose for peat/coco @ 2 TBSP / Gal) - Doesn’t affect PH or EC

Average EC - 1.2
Average PH - 6.2 (recently learned lower may be better for Promix, now shooting for 5.7 - 5.8 last 2 feedings)
Average VPD - 0.9 - 1.0 (was 0.7 - 0.9 first month)

Runoff PH 6.5
Runoff EC 1.6
Runnoff always gets dumped, pots never sit in their runnoff more than a few minutes.

IPM - Jack’s Deadbug Brew once a month
I triple checked in the 250x zoom scope & confirm no bugs/eggs/movement at any magnification on leaf undersides or stems anywhere.

Instrument - Bluelab PH Pen Calibrated monthly
Generic EC Meters x2 (both read within 20 of each other, and the reading is often right where nutrients say it should be landing. getting Bluelab EC Pen next)

Lights - 2 x Spider Farmer SF2000 both at 80%

Water EC before nutes is 0.2 @ 72-75 degrees
I keep my water in a rez (cleaned monthly), with just a small pump and nano air-stone in there mixing / bumping the DO levels / airing out chlorine from tap.

Plants in 1.3 Gal plastic pots
(Transplanted 3 as a test for being root bound, and transplant made no difference at all. Still having same issues now in 3 gal airpots, ready to just cut them down at this point)

Generally I’ve been watering till runoff (10-15%) every 2-3 days, lifting pots for weight and aided with moisture meter - so I'm never feeding when they’re already fully wet. No matter when I water, the plants have zero reaction which feels so wrong and bizarre. Like they aren’t even drinking or trying to live. I’ve tried every variation on how often to water and nothing seems to make any difference at all, i get no response when feeding. Ideally I would like to be able to feed/water every day or other day, but now I feel lost and worse off than before at this point. When I try to research, I find nothing but conflicting information about Promix and coco for watering.

I was told at the grow store that "Promix is soilless and comparable to Coco". I now don’t think that is accurate. It doesn’t seem to behave like coco, which is what I actually wanted to work with but it was unavailable. I would like to get them back to health so I can gtfo of this Promix, but really I don’t know what’s wrong at this point.

I originally planned to get these cloned and running/flipping in COCO but I’m beyond worried about having the same main problem carry over if I don’t know what the hell is causing this catastrophe here. Also I don’t want to clone anything until I can get them back to full health so I’m stuck here.

What’s most puzzling is the roots look decent but the plants look like shit..

I know the Athena says 3.0 EC all the way, but when I’ve fed any higher than 1.2 - I got sever leaf claw (tips pointing down) and leaves turning so green they were almost blue. That’s why I’ve bumped down to 1.2/1.0 even though the recommended is 3.0, with that I don’t understand how 3.0 wouldn’t kill my plant from N toxicity. I currently have no supplemental CO2.

I’m used to knowing when the plants are thirsty and simply watering the second they drooped or were about to. They would always shoot right back up again like clockwork and get so happy they'd almost be pointing straight up. Now here every time I water literally nothing at all happens. then in a day or two they just look worse. Literally zero response from the leaves after a heavy or light feeding, weather I do them close together, or wait an extended period to let them dry more then water- no response.

Something feels very very wrong and I can’t figure out the root cause. It’s killing me, for once I’m finally in a position to make something big happen business wise- but suddenly every plant I touch just wants to die. This run was just to find a mom then be running clones, but all of a sudden I can't even get to a single healthy plant.

Attached a few photos, they really do look way worse in real life (camera made them a little more saturated than they are, but you get the idea), the leaves are super dull , they feel lifeless almost brittle, just slowly getting worse. The opposite of LUSH which is honestly what I’m used to…feel like I don’t even know when or how much to water anymore at this point. I’d hoped this would be a great learning experience but so far It’s just gone backwards. no matter what I try to do nothing seems to help / work.

Theory: Was the wrong PH (6.2 vs 5.8) creating issues with the nutrient ratios that caused / I mistook for nitrogen toxicity and subsequently bumped down in EC when it just needed (more food and) to be in the right ph window? Did the 6.2 ph input over time bump the medium ph to outside livable range?
Im not sure if there’s such a dramatic difference in that ph to be a root problem, but maybe it is..It’s always felt like I was just one click away from everything being in place and taking off like a rocket, with the best of everything I can get, but nothing I try promotes a positive response.

Spent my last everything to get here, but it’s going bad as It could on any timeline. I just want them to flourish and for me to be overwhelmed with defoliating. So far I’ve barely taken any leaves off at all, pushing onto month 3 of life. I just wanted a clean medium, and a simple nutrient system.

Trying to do absolute everything right, but no matter what plants look like shit. Sorry if this is a little all over the place, I feel totally lost at this point. tried to give all the info I can. Will answer any questions to my best.

Is there hope?

 

[ArtfulCodger]

I've never run Promix MP, so this is just an idea. With 60-70% of the substrate being peat, I'd be tempted to give one of your plants a longer dryback to see if it likes it. And maybe test a very short dryback on another...maybe even a couple of shots a day. My wild ass guess is that it's a watering issue, but...it's a guess.

 

[RootsRuler]

I've never run Promix MP, so this is just an idea. With 60-70% of the substrate being peat, I'd be tempted to give one of your plants a longer dryback to see if it likes it. And maybe test a very short dryback on another...maybe even a couple of shots a day. My wild ass guess is that it's a watering issue, but...it's a guess.

I agree. Sounds like the media is holding onto the water a little longer although I'm not sure media holding onto water for an extra day is going to do what you're experiencing. I've run Athena and didn't like it for other reasons but I can't think of anything other than what AC posted.

 

[Jmaes Mabley]

Promix MP in NOT like coco. Whoever told you that is tripping. They need flogged.

What is the temperature of your room? Id strive for 80f-84f lights on, and 77f-78f lights off. Do you have really good air exchange???

What is the square footage of the growing area?

While Ive never used the Promix MP, Ive used the BX for at least 20 or more years.
The BX buffers out a PH 6.2. Its initially like a 5.8, but after a couple waterings the lime kicks in and goes to a 6.2 PH, and is what I strive for.

I also believe the MP is mostly recommended for starting seeds, and early stage growth. Most people usually the BX, of HP for long term growth. HP may be best for your purposes.

Like as stated above. I think they are getting watered way to much, and need a semi dry period before the next watering. And when watered, not soaked.

I dont know how your moisture meter reads, but Ive used the cheap type you can buy at Lowes for 30 or more years, with great success, though they dont work worth a crap in solo cups. Though I stopped using 18oz solo cups, and now start mine out in 32oz Uline Deli Containers.

But I always wait until the needle on my moisture meter is Slightly Above the Dry/Moist Line. I never let them get to DRY, but I let them get to very, very Low Moist before watering again.

I would also not necessarily water until run off either. I wouldnt exceed 20% of the pot size. Say if its 5 gallon pot, Id not go any more than 1 gallon of water, and thats if theyre using the water, and are big enough to need that much water. Also in Veg, they may not require 20% water vs pot size. This is if they are in their flowering cycle, and are in mid bloom. And about 82f temperature, and several fans going. This is a maximum watering amount

But Id never water Promix until runoff. Especially every time. And while I hand water mine, at max feeding I only use about 40% strenght, and I do feed at each watering. And I do mainly chemicals. Though Ive also done organic more times than I can count. Ive been growing weed since the dawn of HID in 1977-78. This 40% is also during mid flowering.

Also the Promix MP already contains a wetting agent, and theres no use in adding more.

Inside I use 20 gallon containers of Promix BX, and grow big plants usually. At this rate, and when they are growing the fastest, and the strain is a heavy producer, I water every 3.5 days with 4 gallons of water. I also usually grow 1- 2 plants under a 1000w Hortilux HPS. Though I veg under both a Gavita 1700E, or a 1000w Hortilux HPS. I also start seedlings under either of these lights.

I also feel your medium is lacking in Micronutrients. Ive seen no listing that your fertilizer contains any of these Micros. I also believe your NPK ratio may be a bit low on Phosphorus, and aso may be low of Calcium, even with the cal/mag. I use Calcium Nitrate as my source of Nitrogen, and Calcium. It is 20% Calcium. For Hydro these ratios are recommended. Suggestions for hydroponic solutions are 80-140 ppm Ca and 30-70 ppm Mg. I also dont notice any Sulfur. Thats why I myself like Epsom Salts for both my magnesium, and Sulfur sources.

But I see no Micro-trace elements in your fertilizer. I may be wrong, but I dont see anything listed.

Those odd, twisted leaves are possibly caused by a micronutrient deficiency. And the purple is most likely caused by a Phosphorus Deficiency. Micros help uptake the macros.

Boron as (B) …………………………………………………………….0.20%
Copper as (Cu)………………………………………………………… 0.05%
Iron (Chelated) as (Fe).. ……………………………………………..0.41%
Manganese as (Mn)……………………………………………………0.22%
Molybdenum as (Mo) …………………………………………………0.01%
Zinc as (Zn)……………………………………………………………….0.05%

Also the plant youre showing the roots of, is root bound. I dont think a plant would be happy with that much root going around in circles.

I also think is highly bullshit that Spider Farmer says the SF2000 puts out the equal to 2000w!!! Thats totally fucking false advertisement.

If all the so called assessments are correct about LED vs HID, that the very best of the best LED are 1/3 more efficient than a Single Ended HID. So the SF2000 is about equal to 300w of HID. I start seedling with a 1000w ortilux HOS/HID at 24 inches. If it was me, Id have that SF2000 Cranked, and about 12 inches from the top of the canopy.

But IMHO opinion

Theyre overwatered, Rootbound, and deficient in Calcium, Sulfur, Phosphorus, and Micro Trace Elements, and possibly not enough fresh air exchange

2 of those SF2000 will cover about a 4.6 x 2.2 area. But I think its a crime that this company says ONE of those lights is equal to a 2000w worth of HID. Thats a flat out lie, and false advertisement.

 

[Peat_Phreak]

Promix MP is

70% peat
20% coco
10% perlite

It doesn't drain as well as HP. Which is 30% perlite and 70% peat.

Feeding 15X a month at 2.5EC is reliable with HP.

 

[99problems]

Promix MP in NOT like coco. Whoever told you that is tripping. They need flogged.

What is the temperature of your room? Id strive for 80f-84f lights on, and 77f-78f lights off. Do you have really good air exchange???

What is the square footage of the growing area?

While Ive never used the Promix MP, Ive used the BX for at least 20 or more years.
The BX buffers out a PH 6.2. Its initially like a 5.8, but after a couple waterings the lime kicks in and goes to a 6.2 PH, and is what I strive for.

I also believe the MP is mostly recommended for starting seeds, and early stage growth. Most people usually the BX, of HP for long term growth. HP may be best for your purposes.

Like as stated above. I think they are getting watered way to much, and need a semi dry period before the next watering. And when watered, not soaked.

I dont know how your moisture meter reads, but Ive used the cheap type you can buy at Lowes for 30 or more years, with great success, though they dont work worth a crap in solo cups. Though I stopped using 18oz solo cups, and now start mine out in 32oz Uline Deli Containers.

But I always wait until the needle on my moisture meter is Slightly Above the Dry/Moist Line. I never let them get to DRY, but I let them get to very, very Low Moist before watering again.

I would also not necessarily water until run off either. I wouldnt exceed 20% of the pot size. Say if its 5 gallon pot, Id not go any more than 1 gallon of water, and thats if theyre using the water, and are big enough to need that much water. Also in Veg, they may not require 20% water vs pot size. This is if they are in their flowering cycle, and are in mid bloom. And about 82f temperature, and several fans going. This is a maximum watering amount

But Id never water Promix until runoff. Especially every time. And while I hand water mine, at max feeding I only use about 40% strenght, and I do feed at each watering. And I do mainly chemicals. Though Ive also done organic more times than I can count. Ive been growing weed since the dawn of HID in 1977-78. This 40% is also during mid flowering.

Also the Promix MP already contains a wetting agent, and theres no use in adding more.

Inside I use 20 gallon containers of Promix BX, and grow big plants usually. At this rate, and when they are growing the fastest, and the strain is a heavy producer, I water every 3.5 days with 4 gallons of water. I also usually grow 1- 2 plants under a 1000w Hortilux HPS. Though I veg under both a Gavita 1700E, or a 1000w Hortilux HPS. I also start seedlings under either of these lights.

I also feel your medium is lacking in Micronutrients. Ive seen no listing that your fertilizer contains any of these Micros. I also believe your NPK ratio may be a bit low on Phosphorus, and aso may be low of Calcium, even with the cal/mag. I use Calcium Nitrate as my source of Nitrogen, and Calcium. It is 20% Calcium. For Hydro these ratios are recommended. Suggestions for hydroponic solutions are 80-140 ppm Ca and 30-70 ppm Mg. I also dont notice any Sulfur. Thats why I myself like Epsom Salts for both my magnesium, and Sulfur sources.

But I see no Micro-trace elements in your fertilizer. I may be wrong, but I dont see anything listed.

Those odd, twisted leaves are possibly caused by a micronutrient deficiency. And the purple is most likely caused by a Phosphorus Deficiency. Micros help uptake the macros.

Boron as (B) …………………………………………………………….0.20%
Copper as (Cu)………………………………………………………… 0.05%
Iron (Chelated) as (Fe).. ……………………………………………..0.41%
Manganese as (Mn)……………………………………………………0.22%
Molybdenum as (Mo) …………………………………………………0.01%
Zinc as (Zn)……………………………………………………………….0.05%

Also the plant youre showing the roots of, is root bound. I dont think a plant would be happy with that much root going around in circles.

I also think is highly bullshit that Spider Farmer says the SF2000 puts out the equal to 2000w!!! Thats totally fucking false advertisement.

If all the so called assessments are correct about LED vs HID, that the very best of the best LED are 1/3 more efficient than a Single Ended HID. So the SF2000 is about equal to 300w of HID. I start seedling with a 1000w ortilux HOS/HID at 24 inches. If it was me, Id have that SF2000 Cranked, and about 12 inches from the top of the canopy.

But IMHO opinion

Theyre overwatered, Rootbound, and deficient in Calcium, Sulfur, Phosphorus, and Micro Trace Elements, and possibly not enough fresh air exchange

2 of those SF2000 will cover about a 4.6 x 2.2 area. But I think its a crime that this company says ONE of those lights is equal to a 2000w worth of HID. Thats a flat out lie, and false advertisement.

Thank you very much for all of your input, I really appreciate your advice on this a lot.

I completely agree its always felt like they are missing so many vital nutrients, and I wasn’t understanding why. I believed that the Athena Pro Line was a complete food system by itself, but perhaps that isn’t true, or at least with the 3 parts I have is not everything I need.

I used to make my own soil mix, and brew killer compost teas. Then I switched to a few different one parts that all worked surprisingly well also. I simply was looking for a 3 (or so) part complete nutrient system just so I could control giving less N at the end you know?

I’m gonna try switching to GE Flora 3 Part for now as a backup (I happen to have available), and try watering like you mentioned without the runoff. See if we can get em back to health.

I appreciate knowing that runoff isn’t the way to go for the Promix. At one point I was simply feeding 400-600ml every other day, and the moisture meter was dancing around that line like you described. They seemed to be happy water wise with that, but still massive nutrient issues. I guessed maybe there was a salt buildup and that’s why I started watering like I am now with the runoff. The way you’re describing using the moisture meter mostly on the cusp of moist/dry as a watering time is exactly how I’ve been using it. It does seem to stay too wet too long, and it’s possible that they have it buffer to a higher PH than I want as well.

Guy at the grow store really gave me bad advice saying it was “basically coco” let alone i think the other poster is right about the one I have (MP) isn’t supposed to be used for veg long term. That grow store actually just closed last week and became a dispensary the second they acquired a license. We actually don’t have a grow store in my town now so we’re looking for other places to get stuff.

Even though they list that there is a wetting agent, I still found the medium really hydrophobic out the bag that’s why I had that in the mix.

So the one in the pic of the roots actually did get transplanted from a 1 to 3 gallon that day, but because of the many other nutrient issues you stated- a simple transplant wasn’t enough to bring it back. Still in the same boat as the other mostly.

My friend is running plants twice as big as mine in pots half and the same size as mine and they are happy, he’s getting good harvests regularly. That was my intended direction, but Promix isn’t coco.

For air exchange we’re working on pulling in filtered fresh air next, but for now it’s all in a temp/humidity controlled spare bedroom. It’s in a house where the door can be open or just cracked and still stay in check. AC kicking hot air outside. I know it’s not perfect. I mainly close it up at night at the moment. Working on getting in/out with the room sealed. 2 fans one ac infinity clip on swivel on low medium under than canopy and another fan pointed away just moving air everywhere. So it’s at the very least not stagnate. Also there is a very high quality air filter on 24/7.

Room is currently, 73 - 74 degrees 56-58 humidity. it’s controlled so I can drop it down or bump it up however need. I’ve just been going off VPD

The girls are pretty much in a 4x2 area at the moment, lights are about 3 feet away and you’re totally right about the spider farmer. I know they’re not the greatest, but I’ve already had 3-4 successful grows under these lights so I didn’t think they were too bad to start with. But you’re also right on that they should be cranked at this point.

If we can get things back on track my goal is to get them healthy enough to be able take clones.

 

[Jmaes Mabley]

3 feet away is way to far away from the top of the canopy. Spider Farmer even says the light should be 12in-18in from the canopy.
Ive got a Gavita 1700e, and have its no futher than 2 feet from the canopy, and its cranked. I also start seedling under this light. Cranked. But I also have really good fresh air exchange. With no CO2 fresh air exchange is critical. I also use a 1000w Hortilux HPS for starting seedlings-flowering. And in winter I use Gavita 1150w HID DE. At 36in-40in.

At 3 feet your light is the minimum recommended distance as what is recommended or a 1150w Gavita DE HID. Id drop the light down to 24in, if you are using both lights at full power. Id leave it there for a week, and see how they react. It also seems like the light is more efficient at 18in vs 16in except for in the middle. And going by the UMOL chart Id give the light a coverage area of no more than 3 x 2 vs 2 x 4.

If at 1 week the plants respond favorably, id lower them to 20in. and see how they react.

My Gavita 1700e is recommended for a 4 x 4 area and is 645w. I have it at 24in.

72f-74f is to cool. Temp should be about 82f lights on, and 76f lights off. No wonder they stay wet so long. And the plants wont take up as many nutrients at such a cool temperature.

But first off Id raise the temperature, and lower the lights. And not water so much. No watering until runoff, unless they are using the water, and need water by no longer than 3.5 days.

 

[audaciousgrapes]

I use Athena pro line at work. It is most definitely a complete nutrient. Bloom and Core are all you need, though Balance and Cleanse are helpful. It does not cause toxicity issues at 3.0EC, even on tiny plants under low light conditions (200 ppfd or less). I have fed two inch seedlings at 3.0, and currently run aero cloners at 3.0 without problems.
I have never tried using salt nutrients in peat, coco has too many advantages and is slightly less damaging to the planet. So I can't help much with watering strategy, except to say that regular runoff should probably be part of the plan to avoid random lockouts, EC spikes, etc. I'd probably try 3.0ec 5.8ph with runoff at every irrigation, 400-700 ppfd light, 80ish degrees and 65ish percent RH.
CO below atmospheric levels can reduce transpiration dramatically. If you're in a space without fresh air exchange some CO2 supplementation is required.

 

[BudzAldrin]

At a glance I'd say calcium tox. Blue leaves is -P, wrinkled/hooked is -B. If you you had burnt tips (-K) I'd bet money on excess Ca.

I've never seen N toxicity, I think Cannabis growers have been misled on that. It's always calcium turning petioles purple, leaves blue, twisting blistering, drooping, burning. It's well known in horta that Ca induces anthocyanins, but not well understood that it's the result of stalled starch/carb metabolism which phosphorus is responsible for.


I'm not good with ppms or anything hydro related but I had these problems when I started growing indoor, I would run short on NPK doing water only grows, and people would ALWAYS say it's overfed, even though the problems only showed up weeks after feeding plain water. I stopped pushing Ca so hard and raised NPKB. The only leaves that droop/claw now are the ones that want more B (landrace sativa stuff).

Cannabis soaks up Ca like a baby sucks tits and doesn't metabolize it without tons of B K P. It's just sitting in the plant tissue bound with carbonate, and it breaks free as the plant grows. That's the sole reason silica products are useful, the CaCO3 goes into parts of the plant it shouldn't go into (trichs for example), and causes all kinds of problems when it breaks loose. Sounds nutty but its been confirmed under the microscope. Trichomes are literally neutralizing their carboxylic acids (cannabinoids and volatiles) when they contain calcium carbonate instead of silica, and form calcium salts/soaps that create disgusting smoke. This seems to be some big secret or something, it's blatantly obvious under the microscope yet everyone shills excess calcium to other growers. Meanwhile everyone is told not to push P, and everyone has P deficiency.. Especially since Ca blocks Mg which P relies on. That's probably why I heard to add 1 gram of MG per gallon irrigation under Leds. I never listened but it makes sense. Cannabis + Led = Calcium bullying everything else. The same exact nute profiles outdoors will have green leaves, while under Led they are blue with purple petioles.

 

[Peat_Phreak]

Meanwhile everyone is told not to push P, and everyone has P deficiency.

Using excess P is bad for the environment. Think of the fish!

Too much P creates a harsh smoke. This is because P turns into Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5) when combusted.

P2O5 is corrosive to METAL and is very irritating – it may cause severe burns to the eye, skin, mucous membrane, and respiratory tract even at concentrations as low as 1 mg/m3.

 

[hawkman]

I agree. Sounds like the media is holding onto the water a little longer although I'm not sure media holding onto water for an extra day is going to do what you're experiencing. I've run Athena and didn't like it for other reasons but I can't think of anything other than what AC posted.

Yea ! Athena is an expensive nutrient - and Promix can be tricky to use

 

[99problems]

At a glance I'd say calcium tox. Blue leaves is -P, wrinkled/hooked is -B. If you you had burnt tips (-K) I'd bet money on excess Ca.

I've never seen N toxicity, I think Cannabis growers have been misled on that. It's always calcium turning petioles purple, leaves blue, twisting blistering, drooping, burning. It's well known in horta that Ca induces anthocyanins, but not well understood that it's the result of stalled starch/carb metabolism which phosphorus is responsible for.


I'm not good with ppms or anything hydro related but I had these problems when I started growing indoor, I would run short on NPK doing water only grows, and people would ALWAYS say it's overfed, even though the problems only showed up weeks after feeding plain water. I stopped pushing Ca so hard and raised NPKB. The only leaves that droop/claw now are the ones that want more B (landrace sativa stuff).

Cannabis soaks up Ca like a baby sucks tits and doesn't metabolize it without tons of B K P. It's just sitting in the plant tissue bound with carbonate, and it breaks free as the plant grows. That's the sole reason silica products are useful, the CaCO3 goes into parts of the plant it shouldn't go into (trichs for example), and causes all kinds of problems when it breaks loose. Sounds nutty but its been confirmed under the microscope. Trichomes are literally neutralizing their carboxylic acids (cannabinoids and volatiles) when they contain calcium carbonate instead of silica, and form calcium salts/soaps that create disgusting smoke. This seems to be some big secret or something, it's blatantly obvious under the microscope yet everyone shills excess calcium to other growers. Meanwhile everyone is told not to push P, and everyone has P deficiency.. Especially since Ca blocks Mg which P relies on. That's probably why I heard to add 1 gram of MG per gallon irrigation under Leds. I never listened but it makes sense. Cannabis + Led = Calcium bullying everything else. The same exact nute profiles outdoors will have green leaves, while under Led they are blue with purple petioles.

I appreciate your input, thank you for taking this much care to respond.

At one time there appeared to be a clear Mg deficiency which made me feel even more sure about bumping the Cal/Mag. It makes sense about the Ca blocking the Mg because adding Cal/Mag didn't seem to address the Mg decency. I gather now that adding the calmag (as you might in coco) on top of the athena was being overloaded on Ca, especially in a mainly peat medium...Also I'm running "Gold Shield Silica" which is a cheaper silica, and at possibly too low a dose - 2ml/g on average (recently bumped up to 3-4).

I did suspect that they were not getting enough silica to deal with whatever is going on, and have just purchased the "Mills Nutrients - Vitalize" which is a more efficient kind of Silica than the potassium based from what I read. Do you have any takes on this?

Next watering I'll try giving just base NPK food without any extra Cal/Mag, plus upgrading the Silica when it arrives as well. Do you think a foliar of silica may help in general here as well right now?

It also kind of seems the ph of the specific medium is buffering higher than I want naturally, I saw somewhere promix mp can get up to 6.5 with the lime they put in. Athena says in peat based for Veg should be shooting for 5.8-6.2 at the highest. It's defintaly the wrong medium to start, so I ordered a couple different high quality coco products (tripple washed and pre-buffered). I'm hoping to switch too those next. I'm not sure if these girls can make it back to health but I feel like it's theoretically possible, if the issues can be dealt with and are not permanent..

everyone is told not to push P, and everyone has P deficiency..

Doesn't Ca in Coco get exchanged for P, until it's fully buffered at least? Either way clearly I'm not really in coco and have loud P deficiency :(

When you say NPKB, what is the "B" you're referring to?

I found this very insightful and makes sense to me.

Trichomes are literally neutralizing their carboxylic acids (cannabinoids and volatiles) when they contain calcium carbonate instead of silica, and form calcium salts/soaps that create disgusting smoke.

You're assesment in many ways fits my issues, I agree somewhere along the way too much cal led down the wrong path. There was subtle but unwanted leaf twisting from the early stages.

 

[99problems]

Promix MP is

70% peat
20% coco
10% perlite

It doesn't drain as well as HP. Which is 30% perlite and 70% peat.

Feeding 15X a month at 2.5EC is reliable with HP.

Everyone having good outcome with athena seems to be running EC well above 2, I was hesitant to push as I've never gone much higher than 1.4 but very different food.

1. I have the wrong medium for what I'm trying to do, drainage and ph wise.
2. The Athena has been too low on EC , and the medium is possibly staying to high a PH for proper nutrient ratios.
3. Very Likely too much Ca has been added the entire lifespan causing lockout accross the board.

Considering this basically isn't coco, there is likely plenty of everything in the Athena as is for any no-coco medium.

 

[99problems]

I use Athena pro line at work. It is most definitely a complete nutrient. Bloom and Core are all you need, though Balance and Cleanse are helpful. It does not cause toxicity issues at 3.0EC, even on tiny plants under low light conditions (200 ppfd or less). I have fed two inch seedlings at 3.0, and currently run aero cloners at 3.0 without problems.
I have never tried using salt nutrients in peat, coco has too many advantages and is slightly less damaging to the planet. So I can't help much with watering strategy, except to say that regular runoff should probably be part of the plan to avoid random lockouts, EC spikes, etc. I'd probably try 3.0ec 5.8ph with runoff at every irrigation, 400-700 ppfd light, 80ish degrees and 65ish percent RH.
CO below atmospheric levels can reduce transpiration dramatically. If you're in a space without fresh air exchange some CO2 supplementation is required.

Thank you this is very helpful and seems to be what everyone says about Athena. I never meant to be running in peat, will be switching to coco asap. I'm just unsure of if these can be saved and transferred or if it would make more sense to start new ones.

I'm working on a revival regiment atm, but it will consist of
+Silica as monosilicic acid.
+Athena
+Diamond Nectar Humic Acids

3.0ec 5.8ph

with a some runoff
no added calmag

temp is 72/hu 60 at the moment
for now there is air exchange, I've actually had an earlier successful grow in the room- just not since switching mediums and nutrients. I'm planning on testing what the Co2 is soon, supplementation is possible in the future.

 

[Jmaes Mabley]

Temperature needs to be about 10 degrees warmer if its only 72f. 82f is a good temp. Low temps can cause nutrient uptake problems.

 

[RootsRuler]

Temperature needs to be about 10 degrees warmer if its only 72f. 82f is a good temp. Low temps can cause nutrient uptake problems.

I like leaf temps around 78F - 80F in early flower dropping to around 74F the last couple weeks of flower.

 

[brooklynelaine]

Promix isn’t recommended for Athena.. the above comments in regards to the over watering are correct but with promix it’s a catch 22… first things first.. bump your ec to 3.0 the package is right you don’t need the cal mag and the other stuff. However you 100% need cleanse.. it acts as a descaling agent. What is happening is in promix it stays wetter longer.. the salts in Athena will start to crystallize around your root system do to lack of uptake and environmental evaporation… salt hanging out that long around roots dries them up will start showing signs of lock out… the cleanse helps off set this, however you will continue to have issues in promix because it holds moisture. In coco it doesn’t hold the moisture like promix so there’s less chance of lock out due to build up plus Athena requires you water until 10% run off if you do that with promix you will perpetually be in a too moist state. You can finish your run but add 7ml of cleanse to every feeding and allow a longer dry back.

 

[Kraken.headz]

Sounds like you should stop doing that

 

[99problems]

Promix isn’t recommended for Athena.. the above comments in regards to the over watering are correct but with promix it’s a catch 22… first things first.. bump your ec to 3.0 the package is right you don’t need the cal mag and the other stuff. However you 100% need cleanse.. it acts as a descaling agent. What is happening is in promix it stays wetter longer.. the salts in Athena will start to crystallize around your root system do to lack of uptake and environmental evaporation… salt hanging out that long around roots dries them up will start showing signs of lock out… the cleanse helps off set this, however you will continue to have issues in promix because it holds moisture. In coco it doesn’t hold the moisture like promix so there’s less chance of lock out due to build up plus Athena requires you water until 10% run off if you do that with promix you will perpetually be in a too moist state. You can finish your run but add 7ml of cleanse to every feeding and allow a longer dry back.

Thanks man. This really makes a lot of sense.
It feels like some kind of build up causing lockout, but this is new territory for me. my fault on thinking the promix was just like coco.

I actually don't have "Cleanse" yet but I can order it. Wasn't aware of it's importance especially in this situation.

I do however have a full unused set of Foraflex including "Root Drip", is that anything like "Cleanse" from Athena? I could try that immediately.

 

[99problems]

I also have General Hydroponics FloraKleen Salt Clearing Solution on hand as well.