Athena + Promix = Nothing but Problems

[99problems]

Quick update:

Things are finally seeming to turn around for the better. I took some clones that are now in just coco, and my current regiment seems to bringing them all back to a good place. Promix takes a day or two to dry, where coco is staying moist and getting hit daily.

Currently giving (in order):

Calimagic (for coco plants only) - 1ml/g
Root Drip - 1ml/g
Flora Series 3-part base
Re-charge (soon to switch to BioAG Ful-Power)
Rapid Start - 1ml/g
& Hydroguard - 2ml/g

Feeding around 1700-1900 EC as I think they were not getting enough food before. Recharge is mainly for adding humic acid until Ful-Power arrives. I understand it is of pretty significant importance especially in coco / soilless.

I believe the Root Drip has been clearing all the salt that was building up and leading to lockout. I am however not completely sure if something like "Root Drip" or "Athena Cleanse" conflicts in any way with the "Hydroguard" that is all beneficial bacteria?? I might make a separate post about this to get input on this, but for now It all seems to be working well together in both promix and coco.

I noticed before that my water sometimes was too warm as well, likely leading to real problems without any protection. Doing what I can now to keep it as close to 68° as possible, and the Hydroguard seems to keep roots from going south for me in a major way also. The oldest clones in the coco seem to be happier than ever and progressing daily.

There is still a bit of red/purple stems on the ones that had it the worst, but it seems to be fading into green as well as not always drooping severely anymore. After every feeding they seem to be pointing up with vigor, intake finally feels normal again.

Just did a good defoliating for actually the first time in their life yesterday, feels good.

pics coming soon

 

[99problems]

ok,
been busy but just wanted to share a brief update.

I have moms in larger pots now, as well as clones in smaller 1 gals - running only coco.

I agree with what people said about the promix holding too much water (especially for sprouts imo) ..but i also believe a bad salt build up was one of the main issues here.

Still trying to get things dialed in perfectly, but overall everything is going much better now. since the first post we started using the root drip cleansing agent as well as going for much more runoff, and have been just using the flora series as a base. again, everything new is in coco only now. We are currently looking at testing an organic nutrient line, but maybe that'll come up some other post.

Got a cut of each strain still in veg now, everything else is getting flipped. We are just trying to test what strains we're running now, and then choose our favorite couple to go with.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice! I think we're gonna make it to the finish line.

some pics taken from today, early week 3 12/12

 

[99problems]

+Yes i know i need a serious de-leafing asap!

Working on it!

 

[99problems]

Final update.

Currently running:
Medium - COCO

Nutrients -
Mills - Vitalize
Root Drip - (Mainly for irrigation lines / salt clearing)
TPS Ultra Bloom
& PH Up

PH - 5.8 - 6.1

Water Temp - 66° - 71°

They get fed once daily until runoff, and never fully dry. Pretty simple but they're pretty happy. Working on more automation next.

+side note: I spoke with someone at Athena, and they confirmed that their "Cleanse" product is an absolutely essential part of their pro line. It's so strange to me that everywhere they advertise their Pro line as the ultimate complete nutrient system, "Cleanse" is never even pictured or mentioned. The fact that I was running the pro line nutes without cleanse caused a majority of the problems at the beginning of this grow. Major serious salt build up.

Crossing the finish line now, harvesting this week as well as taking more clones soon from the best moms.

THANK YOU to everyone who helped with your advice and opinions, it really made a difference and kept me moving in the right direction.

 

[Trash_2002]

Final update.

Currently running:
Medium - COCO

Nutrients -
Mills - Vitalize
Root Drip - (Mainly for irrigation lines / salt clearing)
TPS Ultra Bloom
& PH Up

PH - 5.8 - 6.1

Water Temp - 66° - 71°

They get fed once daily until runoff, and never fully dry. Pretty simple but they're pretty happy. Working on more automation next.

+side note: I spoke with someone at Athena, and they confirmed that their "Cleanse" product is an absolutely essential part of their pro line. It's so strange to me that everywhere they advertise their Pro line as the ultimate complete nutrient system, "Cleanse" is never even pictured or mentioned. The fact that I was running the pro line nutes without cleanse caused a majority of the problems at the beginning of this grow. Major serious salt build up.

Crossing the finish line now, harvesting this week as well as taking more clones soon from the best moms.

THANK YOU to everyone who helped with your advice and opinions, it really made a difference and kept me moving in the right direction.

Athena is just a really expensive form of Plant Prod hydroveg (Part A) + Calnit (Part B), with this ferts you can run pretty much 2:1 ratio (PP:CalNit) from seed to harvest.
Athena schedules are also crazy high EC for no good reason imho. Its just the hype.

Plant-Prod 7-11-27 HydroVeg Water Soluble Fertilizer - Master Plant-Prod Inc.

Plant-Prod has been improving plant productivity since 1947. The most Water Soluble Fertilizers on the market.

www.plantprod.com

 

[blacklablabs]

Hi all, I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this.

I’ve been growing for over 10 years. Breeding and making feminized seeds just for myself & friends for over 8 years.
Successfully ran an outdoor farm with over 200 plants one season. I've grown with soil in every kind of environment, indoor outdoor and never had any problems I couldn't solve. I’ve even taught people how to grow who are doing very well.

Ever since I’ve tried to go in a new simpler / cleaner direction this year - it’s been an absolute nightmare, and it's almost destroyed my love for gardening.
The girls never look happy at all. It’s just become a daily source of agony. This post is the very last thing I expected to do, but sometimes we all need help.

Symptoms - constant drooping/wilting no matter if the medium is dry or wet, dull matte lifeless / brittle leaves, weird twisty, deformed leaves, oddly crimped leaves, purple stems not from genetics, just about every deficiency possible. Nothing seems to be helping. There’s 2-3 diff strains (all indica leaning) and they’re all having the exact same issues from the start.

I try to keep a decent log, so let me bring you up to speed.

Medium - Promix MP
Feeding - Every Watering

Nutrients (in mixing order)-
+Silica - 2/3 ml/g
+CalMag - 2ml/g (organic no nitrates)
+Athena Pro Line (so far just the veg "Core" and "Grow")
+TNB PH down
+Non Ionic Wetting Agent - Added last (at recommended dose for peat/coco @ 2 TBSP / Gal) - Doesn’t affect PH or EC

Average EC - 1.2
Average PH - 6.2 (recently learned lower may be better for Promix, now shooting for 5.7 - 5.8 last 2 feedings)
Average VPD - 0.9 - 1.0 (was 0.7 - 0.9 first month)

Runoff PH 6.5
Runoff EC 1.6
Runnoff always gets dumped, pots never sit in their runnoff more than a few minutes.

IPM - Jack’s Deadbug Brew once a month
I triple checked in the 250x zoom scope & confirm no bugs/eggs/movement at any magnification on leaf undersides or stems anywhere.

Instrument - Bluelab PH Pen Calibrated monthly
Generic EC Meters x2 (both read within 20 of each other, and the reading is often right where nutrients say it should be landing. getting Bluelab EC Pen next)

Lights - 2 x Spider Farmer SF2000 both at 80%

Water EC before nutes is 0.2 @ 72-75 degrees
I keep my water in a rez (cleaned monthly), with just a small pump and nano air-stone in there mixing / bumping the DO levels / airing out chlorine from tap.

Plants in 1.3 Gal plastic pots
(Transplanted 3 as a test for being root bound, and transplant made no difference at all. Still having same issues now in 3 gal airpots, ready to just cut them down at this point)

Generally I’ve been watering till runoff (10-15%) every 2-3 days, lifting pots for weight and aided with moisture meter - so I'm never feeding when they’re already fully wet. No matter when I water, the plants have zero reaction which feels so wrong and bizarre. Like they aren’t even drinking or trying to live. I’ve tried every variation on how often to water and nothing seems to make any difference at all, i get no response when feeding. Ideally I would like to be able to feed/water every day or other day, but now I feel lost and worse off than before at this point. When I try to research, I find nothing but conflicting information about Promix and coco for watering.

I was told at the grow store that "Promix is soilless and comparable to Coco". I now don’t think that is accurate. It doesn’t seem to behave like coco, which is what I actually wanted to work with but it was unavailable. I would like to get them back to health so I can gtfo of this Promix, but really I don’t know what’s wrong at this point.

I originally planned to get these cloned and running/flipping in COCO but I’m beyond worried about having the same main problem carry over if I don’t know what the hell is causing this catastrophe here. Also I don’t want to clone anything until I can get them back to full health so I’m stuck here.

What’s most puzzling is the roots look decent but the plants look like shit..

I know the Athena says 3.0 EC all the way, but when I’ve fed any higher than 1.2 - I got sever leaf claw (tips pointing down) and leaves turning so green they were almost blue. That’s why I’ve bumped down to 1.2/1.0 even though the recommended is 3.0, with that I don’t understand how 3.0 wouldn’t kill my plant from N toxicity. I currently have no supplemental CO2.

I’m used to knowing when the plants are thirsty and simply watering the second they drooped or were about to. They would always shoot right back up again like clockwork and get so happy they'd almost be pointing straight up. Now here every time I water literally nothing at all happens. then in a day or two they just look worse. Literally zero response from the leaves after a heavy or light feeding, weather I do them close together, or wait an extended period to let them dry more then water- no response.

Something feels very very wrong and I can’t figure out the root cause. It’s killing me, for once I’m finally in a position to make something big happen business wise- but suddenly every plant I touch just wants to die. This run was just to find a mom then be running clones, but all of a sudden I can't even get to a single healthy plant.

Attached a few photos, they really do look way worse in real life (camera made them a little more saturated than they are, but you get the idea), the leaves are super dull , they feel lifeless almost brittle, just slowly getting worse. The opposite of LUSH which is honestly what I’m used to…feel like I don’t even know when or how much to water anymore at this point. I’d hoped this would be a great learning experience but so far It’s just gone backwards. no matter what I try to do nothing seems to help / work.

Theory: Was the wrong PH (6.2 vs 5.8) creating issues with the nutrient ratios that caused / I mistook for nitrogen toxicity and subsequently bumped down in EC when it just needed (more food and) to be in the right ph window? Did the 6.2 ph input over time bump the medium ph to outside livable range?
Im not sure if there’s such a dramatic difference in that ph to be a root problem, but maybe it is..It’s always felt like I was just one click away from everything being in place and taking off like a rocket, with the best of everything I can get, but nothing I try promotes a positive response.

Spent my last everything to get here, but it’s going bad as It could on any timeline. I just want them to flourish and for me to be overwhelmed with defoliating. So far I’ve barely taken any leaves off at all, pushing onto month 3 of life. I just wanted a clean medium, and a simple nutrient system.

Trying to do absolute everything right, but no matter what plants look like shit. Sorry if this is a little all over the place, I feel totally lost at this point. tried to give all the info I can. Will answer any questions to my best.

Is there hope?

Doubt your still running athena but I tried it with promix hp and basically had same issues x5 it's a program ment for more hydro applications I switched to coco and had an amazing run. Also don't use any natural additions when running salts I'd try it in coco (buffered and rinsed). Don't worry so much about the ec coming out its meant to stack up now I mean if ur seeeing 3-5k ppm I'd lower ur feed a bit and maybe make sure the ph is where the ladies want it. Athena says u can run it with promox but I think that's a bunch of hooie.

Black lab dude