Bennificials question

[Blaze]

Yeah It is my opinion that the acceptable PPM's are probably higher than most people realize. If bennies were as easily killed as many claim it seems like you wouldn't be able to use them in hydro or with chem ferts, which is obviously not true.

It always cracks me up when I see organic gardeners (and I am one myself) claiming that you cannot use ANY urea or ammonium nitrogen or it will wipe out your entire microhead, which is of course totally untrue. Both urea and ammonium are part of the natural N cycle and provide food for certain microbes, so if you have healthy living soil you have both urea and ammonium in it already.

 

[PuFFnNugg]

Like I said I ran my P over 125 using GH 3 part and I had Bene's still. No microscope but it was visible to the eye, my ppm had to be dropped 40%, and nutrient and water uptake was greatly increased. I'm not saying I wasn't inhibiting Beneficials growth or reproduction w/ this high ppm, but it didn't just kill them off. The fact is with the root growth that the Bene's induce you don't need very high parts, and I would bet dollars to donuts I had active Bene's with chemical ferts. I would have to question anyone that says otherwise to whether or not they were providing a food source along with there chemical ferts.

 

[Mr.Sputnik]

Same here puffnnug. I catch some shit for running low fert PPM's but my yields are respectable. I don't push my plants to the limit, they don't seem to like it with the system that I run.

 

[kuz]

you need tricoderma in a live res DWC to eat up dead root mass that has been broken down by enzymes.

Roots oregonism is about the same as great white and a HELL of a lot cheaper. Oregonism works great, I can attest to that. I've run both great white and oregonism and I prefer the oregonism for DWC. I've had good success with it in dirt as well, worked better than EN/EA for sure. Dope it up with some molasses.

companion microbial looks pretty good too but i've never tried it.

oregonism, great white, and humboldt myco madness all have tricoderma.

I've wondered if its the trichderma that makes a difference. Oregonism looks like the best deal. I dont see tricho's listed in the bio-organics mycos. I was about to get some mycogrow soluble from fungi perfecti, $85 a pound - they know fungi, but maybe not hydro.

I picked up something called SoilMoist on sale for $5, its also a slow release 3-3-3 fertilizer, not sure if I want to use it, I might bubble it and strain.

 

[flippo420]

Hey guys here's a quote for you from "Teaming With Microbes." Again, not my words, but those of the authors' of a book all about benes.

"applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes. These fertilizers are salts, and when they come into contact with soil microbes, they cause osmotic shock-that is, water in the cells of these organisms flows to the higher concentration of salts without, literally bursting through cell walls and killing off the microbes that hold (bacteria and fungi) and cycle (nematodes and protozoa) nutrients."

Am I crazy or did that just say chemical salt based nutes kill benes? These organisms are the dominant species of life on this planet and we rarely, if ever, even see them and certainly not with the naked eye as someone claimed earlier. These creatures evolved over millions of years in the soil of our planet in symbiosis with plants and now you want to take and drop them in a salt bath and pump them to a sterile media and expect them to survive? Really? Who sounds crazy now? Peace.

 

[kuz]

Maybe it is bunk.
At least with fungi and according to this article the main thing is to establish them before you boost the Phosphorous.
http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2009/12/mycorrhizal-fungi-in-hydroponics-qa/comment-page-1/

Its a lot more reasonable than simply saying salts kill microbes, we know thats not true or all of our dwc tanks would be nice and sterile.

 

[Seamaiden]

We wouldn't be able to use sodium thiosulfate to dechlorinate water that ends up being used for very sensitive creatures, such as sharks and rays, or invertebrates. It's got a lot to do with dilution/density as well, as I understand it.

 

[budfriend]

Hey JK Thanks for all the info. Any chance on recomending a brand or place to buy the benis. I just started using the pond cleaner from home depot. Im over paying these crazy high prices for nutes and additives. I feel like im getting taken everytime i buy some greatwhite. I will say that for starting clones great white makes the roots thick and explode. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

peace

 

[stickyicky]

Hey guys here's a quote for you from "Teaming With Microbes." Again, not my words, but those of the authors' of a book all about benes.

"applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes. These fertilizers are salts, and when they come into contact with soil microbes, they cause osmotic shock-that is, water in the cells of these organisms flows to the higher concentration of salts without, literally bursting through cell walls and killing off the microbes that hold (bacteria and fungi) and cycle (nematodes and protozoa) nutrients."

Am I crazy or did that just say chemical salt based nutes kill benes? These organisms are the dominant species of life on this planet and we rarely, if ever, even see them and certainly not with the naked eye as someone claimed earlier. These creatures evolved over millions of years in the soil of our planet in symbiosis with plants and now you want to take and drop them in a salt bath and pump them to a sterile media and expect them to survive? Really? Who sounds crazy now? Peace.

I know by the cleanliness of my buckets, rez., and other equipment in contact w/ solution that my bennies are alive and well!

 

[PuFFnNugg]

Ammonium, at what ppm does it hurt Bene's.
Chloride same question.

I stated how my P ppm was upwards of 125 earlier in thread. I only had high P/K bloom booster, went over 125 and growth slowed big time. So I would say 125 around the cut off.

There is probably true in what flippo was saying, he's just talking about soil and who knows what microbes and salts.

 

[420king-MASSES]

earth juice makes a nice mico bene mix it seems pretty effective

 

[Seamaiden]

Puff, I don't know at what levels chlorine and ammonium would kill off benes. But, here's something you should know: there are species of nitrifying bacteria (bacto's that oxidize nitrogenous waste, i.e. NH4) that directly consume ammonia. In water, those are bacto's from the genus Nitrosomonas, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a very close corollary for soil environs.

I've still gotta put bells on my Dr. Earth/Gardener & Bloom. I *know* this stuff works and has active, live fungi. Why? Because, I once made the mistake of mixing up my soil on a canvas drop cloth a couple of years ago. Mixed it, moistened it, amended it, left it to settle for two weeks. Came back to turn it and the canvas had been eaten away where it was in contact with the soil. MAN was my husband pissed!

 

[jnuggs]

Seamaiden- I registered at my first site a few years back. I never posted much, I was more of a reader. After reading thousands of pages, I took a break from forums for a few years. I left for a better place... the great outdoors! I have been learning to grow better plants by growing a huge variety. From vegetables and fruits, to shrubs, trees, house plants, plants for my tortoise, everything. anyway I wanted to say that you were an integral part in me leaving the forums to go find answers for myself. You seem to always post your knowledge for the rest of us. And with many of your posts in my mind, I have been able to grow better and better plants. I appreciate your time and generosity. This helps my smoke to be better, as well as the foods I eat. :):) Thank you, from the bottom of my stomach, lungs, and heart :)

 

[ogk1ng]

great white + root exec. blows you're roots up out of this world. healthier roots = bigger flowers

ogk

 

[ookiimata]

There's an interesting thread on ICMag about combining syth ferts with organic bennies in hydro. They run their synth ferts to make up half of their desired PPM, then use teas to get the PPMs to the final level (which is often still slightly lower than a straight synth PPM mix would be). They post pictures of their synth/organic teas brewing away with huge heads of foam, so it seems that it's definitely not killing "All" the bennies. They openly admit they have no way to measure the actual amount of bennies present in straight organic compared to synth/organic, though. One guy even lists synth products that will absolutely kill the microherd, but his list is only about 5 items and obviously incomplete.

I innoculated my seedling mix with Xtreme Garden Myko 30, then also put a little bit of powder in the hole when I placed the seedling in the soil, as there are some microbes in these mixes that must be in contact with the roots (so I've read). Most people seem to say that using Great White/Myko in a tea is rather wasteful for this reason. I've got some GW I'm going to use when I transplant in a couple weeks, and I'm going to use Kangaroots when I water in place of Root Excel.

I'd love to hear more info on amino acids. You say the plant produces them? Soul Synthetics sells an Amino product that they suggest using with their organic line to increase yields, but I'm not sold on the science of amino acids in our type of gardening...yet. I haven't had a chance to read enough about them yet.

 

[dextr0]

I see everyone getting excited by foam, that is usually dead organisms giving up proteins. There will always be some, but it usually follows a slightly anaerobic incident, when fungii start to break down (fungii are very high in phospholipids, which is a waxy fat, which is why fungii are water proof. Phospholipids are a protein (lipid) attached to phosphorus, and we know that's what makes soaps foamy...) So foam was something I've learned to eyeball with some suspicion. Check your aeration and see if you can't get a bit more, and keep in mind certasin ingredients (yucca extracts, saponins, nettles) can cause some foaming when they are on the brew bill. It's not the end of the world, but foam ain't always something to jump up and down about. Consider the fungii...
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=95754

 

[ookiimata]

Valuable info. Respect for that.

 

[ookiimata]

Here's some info I found last night.

Especially important are the mycorrhizal fungi which extend their thread-like hyphae from inside cortex cells out into the soil for several millimeters. They extend the feeding volume of the root by 10 to 1,000 times or more for most plant species (the cabbage family being a notable exception), and extract and carry nutrients back to the root. So important are they that scientists sometimes call the root zone the mycorrhizosphere. Pine trees will hardly grow without these fungi. There are two types- ectomycorrhiza and endomycorrhiza. Ectomycorrhiza are found in association with forest trees such as pines, eucalyptus and dipterocarps, while endomycorrhizal associations are formed in horticultural, forest and agronomic crops

The Great White ingredients show that both endo and ecto myco are used in the product.

 

[Seamaiden]

There's an interesting thread on ICMag about combining syth ferts with organic bennies in hydro. They run their synth ferts to make up half of their desired PPM, then use teas to get the PPMs to the final level (which is often still slightly lower than a straight synth PPM mix would be). They post pictures of their synth/organic teas brewing away with huge heads of foam, so it seems that it's definitely not killing "All" the bennies. They openly admit they have no way to measure the actual amount of bennies present in straight organic compared to synth/organic, though. One guy even lists synth products that will absolutely kill the microherd, but his list is only about 5 items and obviously incomplete.

Ok, knowing what I now know about the difficulty in measuring different organic molecules, I'm curious as to how they're measuring ppm's (a conversion of EC) of organics in anything resembling an accurate manner. I don't disagree that mixing chem-salts with organics can be done, I disagree that the mix can be accurately, or even roughly, measured.

I innoculated my seedling mix with Xtreme Garden Myko 30, then also put a little bit of powder in the hole when I placed the seedling in the soil, as there are some microbes in these mixes that must be in contact with the roots (so I've read). Most people seem to say that using Great White/Myko in a tea is rather wasteful for this reason. I've got some GW I'm going to use when I transplant in a couple weeks, and I'm going to use Kangaroots when I water in place of Root Excel.

I'd love to hear more info on amino acids. You say the plant produces them? Soul Synthetics sells an Amino product that they suggest using with their organic line to increase yields, but I'm not sold on the science of amino acids in our type of gardening...yet. I haven't had a chance to read enough about them yet.

Have you read Teaming With Microbes? I know it's a basic primer on working with the soil food web, but they keep bringing the reader back to their basic rules, which state very clearly that annuals (of which Cannabis is one) generally prefer bacteria-dominated soils which produce N in the form of NO3, and trees, shrubs and other old-growth perennials generally prefer fungi-dominated soils that provide N in the form of NH4 (ammonium). The authors go on to state several times that veggie gardens and lawns perform better with bacteria-dominated soil food webs.

And so, when I consider the following "truisms" of growing ganja I truly question the wisdom of being stuck in the myco paradigm. I'm going to shift my paradigm, but a good microscope would really help me there.

* Worm castings and worm casting teas are AWESOME for Mary. Guess what microbes you gain when you use worm castings. That's right, bacteria.
* Folks have found that Mary LOVES aquarium water. What's aquarium water laden with? Why, the end result of nitrification, NO3! (nitrate)
* Teas made with molasses and other sugars can work wonders for Mary. What microbes do these teas encourage? Bacteria.

See the shift I'm talking about here?

I see everyone getting excited by foam, that is usually dead organisms giving up proteins. There will always be some, but it usually follows a slightly anaerobic incident, when fungii start to break down (fungii are very high in phospholipids, which is a waxy fat, which is why fungii are water proof. Phospholipids are a protein (lipid) attached to phosphorus, and we know that's what makes soaps foamy...) So foam was something I've learned to eyeball with some suspicion. Check your aeration and see if you can't get a bit more, and keep in mind certasin ingredients (yucca extracts, saponins, nettles) can cause some foaming when they are on the brew bill. It's not the end of the world, but foam ain't always something to jump up and down about. Consider the fungii...
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=95754

Dex, lipids are fats. Proteins can be said to be comprised of amino acids.

Do a cursory search on "foam fractionation", learn what hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are, that helps wrap the head around foaming. The other term for it is protein skimming.

 

[ookiimata]

Seamaiden: The main guy experimenting with the synth/organics measures his PPM and PH at various stages of the tea brewing. He knows the starting PH of his water, adds his synthetics to about 600PPM, then adds organics one by one, charting his PH after the addition of each additive to see what each particular additive does to his PH. I think he measures shortly after he adds one, then he measures again after 24hrs of bubbling. He does the same thing with the PPMs. After the microbes finishing eating and pooping and his tea is ready, he uses those PPM readings as his organic "half" of the solution, which he says end up being 900-1100PPM on his meter. So 600PPM starting from his synthetics rises to 1100PPM after his organic additions finish brewing. Those numbers are obviously variable, but I'm just using them as an example. He's using some kind of hydro setup. And he claims he looks at the tea brew under microscope and can identify bennies or whatever it is that people can see in ACT under microscope. I don't know enough about that. He also admits that he isn't educated/capable enough to be able to use what he sees in the scope to determine the number of bennies (or whatever) present in the straight organic solution v. synth/organic solution.

I have the Teaming With Microbes books, and I've read some of it, but not all. I really need to get on that. I have read from various online sources that bacteria is very, very important. Your info is great on that and highly appreciated. The Great White and the Kangaroots contain bacteria and mycos. I'm not knowledgeable to know exactly how effective the specific bacterias are they've used. I'll research that tonight. And I'm sure there's a cheaper way to get those same bacteria without having to buy these bottled nutes. Like EWC (which Kangaroots lists as a source of its ingredients). Hopefully these two products I've spent money on will build a bacterial environment for me and the myco will just be an added potential benefit. I'm going to be using a EWC/Water/Molasses tea to feed every other watering instead of using just water. Hopefully that will continue to kick up the bacteria. It will probably provide the same bacteria that the expensive bottled myco/bacteria products are for a fraction of the cost (minus the myco). Oh well. It's a learning experience.

Years ago I was semi-informed about protein skimming because I used it in my aquarium. I'll be adding those terms you listed above as another reading material I'll be hitting up tonight.

Thanks again.