Blah... pest ID. Confused... possible Broad/Cyclamen?

[Myco]

Well my ladies got their first heat treatment night before last... It was time to water anyway, so I watered them well and gave them a dose of silica... They took it like a champ, here they are the next morning:

Unfortunately, I was planning on flipping to flower about the same time I found the infected clone... Sooo... it looks like my main room is going to be over-vegged by the time I flip thanks to this. But, at the end of the day that's perfectly fine with me as long as I have done what I can to make sure the BM's haven't spread to my main room.

And if anyone is curious, here's what the BM damage looked like on the infected Cherry Pie:

If you see this in your garden, attack!

Edit: What I really mean, if you see this in your garden, throw the plants the fuck out, and attack the rest haha.

 

[Myco]

Just to update, and give a bit of a rant/important message regarding broad mites and treatments...

--------------------------------------------

I'm 99.9% sure that, if I did bring the BM's into my main flowering room, that I annihilated them by:

Heat treat, 120f for 60 min (make sure your ladies are watered well, of course, I gambled and damaged a few plants)
Treatment of Forbid 4F (yeah, I went there)
Follow-up treatments of Cap's foliar packs, straight (turned off dehuey, let RH% get well over 60%)

As for the clone/mother area that harbored the infected Cherry Pie clone...

I started with a couple heat treatments, a couple days apart.
Dunked every plant in Forbid 4f...

Then I took a trip to Vegas. I needed a break... after 4 days of partying like I was 18 again and blowing a fuckload of money, I returned to find some horrible damage done to the clones and mothers. Some of them took the Forbid dunking well, many did not. The damage was so extreme that I tossed all of my clones for the next run, and tossed a couple mothers that weren't dear to me.

The remaining plants, I rotated Azamax, neem, spinosad, and one more treatment of Forbid 4F (did not dunk, simple foliar spray) a little while later... and have been following up with Cap's foliar... and all seems to be well.

As for my buddy's compound... he ended up locating some live BM's throughout the set of clones I'd given him... I gave him an oz of Forbid and other tools, and he seems to also be BM free as well.

What I learned:

You can never be TOO careful. I have access to all of the fancy elites that you could ever ask for... but even with quarantine and treatment that wasn't necessarily aimed at BM eradication, the little mother fuckers still made their way through. Also, the guy that gave me the infected Cherry Pie clone treats every incoming plant with Forbid, and they still made their way through. I also learned that you can OVER-APPLY Forbid 4F... spot treatment isn't quite as necessary as other treatments. Not sure why my clones/mothers couldn't handle the 1.25ml/gal dose of Forbid in a dunking, but I don't think dunking is absolutely necessary.

I do ask that anybody taking in clones takes EXTREME caution, and to quarantine, quarantine, quarantine. Average preventative measures don't seem to be enough. I don't recommend using Forbid 4F... and I really wish I didn't have to necessarily. But out of all of the research I did... I wanted to be damn sure that I got rid of the evil little microscopic bastards. So IMO, a treatment of nukes (Forbid) and following up with other means, such as heat treatments, Cap's foliar, etc, and then another dose Forbid if you wish.

DO NOT OVER-APPLY, OVER-TREAT WITH FORBID. Your plants should never receive Forbid more than 1-2 times in the entire lifespan... otherwise you will create resistant mites. A couple of hydro/indoor growing paradigm-related websites that sell Forbid simply say "studies have shown no resistance problems with Forbid"... however, if you read the entire label/instructions provided with the bottle of Forbid 4F, you will see:

"...repeated use of any plant protection product may increase the development of resistant strains of pests, including insects and mites. Using Forbid 4F in successive miticide applications during the same growing season is not recommend. Use Forbid 4F as part of a sound resistance management program that includes rotation with other treatments with different modes of action."

So, a little common sense goes a long way. Be sure to read the entire label when using highly toxic compounds. Be safe. Wear personal protection gear. Dispose of properly as not to contaminate the environment. Understand that Forbid 4F and other 'nukes' are designed for ORNAMENTALS and understand the risks associated with such.

Be healthy, be safe, be cautious... good vibes and happy gardening.

-Myco

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

Funny this came up when it did....

I have noticed for some time that I have that funny telltale curved leaf with half of it being lighter colored/bleached out looking on the side which the leaf curves towards. The other side will look fine color wise.

The crops have always made it through and turned out great but I have always wondered wtf it was. I just chalked it up to genetic mutation of some sort as it is a blueberry strain.

Last night I searched again and after wading through a bunch of crap about TMV I found a link to a broad mite thread.
My symptoms are pretty common.

The plants get those telltale curved leaves and other strange issues which present as nitrogen toxicity etc when the plants are not being fed enough to warrant such a response. I have not been able to spot anything with my 100x scope I use to check trichs but there is no doubt in my mind that this is my issue.

Any tips on how to spot/where is the best place to look for the little bastards?

I am currently cooking the shit out of them at about 115 degrees shooting for 120

I am curious as to the effectiveness of Avid as opposed to Forbid. I would prefer not to use any of it but I cannot afford to lose this number of plants. I will do whatever works at this point. I plan to grab some spinoside (sp) to go with the avid/forbid.

Are there anymore suggestions for how to deal with this issue?

I thought PM and Spider mites were a bitch.. If only I could burn sulphur or spray with Azamax for these devil spawn...

 

[Myco]

Do you have any pics of the leaf damage you're talking about? It's hard for me to picture it from your description.

The best place I've found to locate them is where the the blades meet the petiole, and personally I seemed to locate them easiest on the top side of the leaf, but that may just be my experience. Also, they tend to try to go for the newest growth, and the males will actually carry the females to the new growth tips to reproduce.

Avid has zero to little effect on them. Forbid 4F is the way to go in the nuke department.

I've never been a huge advocate for using such chemicals, but Forbid does work, and works very well.

Heat, Forbid 4F are the leading solutions. Then also, people have had success with predatory mites. I used Cap's foliar for good measure, but I wouldn't depend on it. I also applied neem/azamax/spinosad... but I can't say how effective those treatments really are. You have to devise a plan that won't use treatments that will cancel out other treatments, of course... People also have used P-bombs with some success, the more spendy, $20 smaller white can, not Doktor Doom... BM's laugh at DD.

I hope you don't have BM's... I wouldn't wish it upon anybody. But if you're notice re-occuring issues, obviously something is going on.

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

Lets see if I can get some photos to post.

Forgive the Ipotato pictures.

This first one is an example of the curved leaves that have randomly appeared on my otherwise healthy plants for awhile now. The discoloration is always on the inside of the curved leaf.

Sorry its a thumbnail. Not used to posting pics here.

The second picture is a growth tip that is coming out deformed and strange looking.

3rd is a normal growth tip on the same plant along with the deformed tip still circled by my hand on the right.

For what its worth there has been no fimming or topping of this pant just LST.

The deformed bigger leaves are how they are growing out of that shoot.

Let me know if those pictures helped if not I can take some more with an Android phone which has better resolution.

All of my research so far tells me that they can build up a tolerance to Forbid as one of the people who was treating it had got it from a guy that dips with Forbid on every cut.

Google "ICMag broadmites" and there is a 100+ page thread on what works and doesn't.

I am not saying what you did didn't work, just that there are a couple supposed remedies.

I literally did not sleep last night over this. I have over 100 plants and this is my livlihood.

Heading out to get some aspirin for spraying as well as some other miticide that might be available locally.

Whats the deal with buying forbid at hydro shops?

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

Found a local source for Forbid and Avid for what its worth.

I will be picking up both this afternoon.

 

[Coir]

So, the first thing to do before any treatment is to positively identify the problem. You should easily be able to see broad mites with a 40X scope. They are fast movers and if you check the tops of leaves right near the growing point, you should see them if they are indeed what you have. The males will carry immature females which can be larger and cloudy white while the males tend to have a slight tan color to them. The eggs are easily identifiable at 40X or stronger. They are clear, flattened ovals with white dots all over them.
If you do find them, I would first recommend the heat treatment then depending on the age of the plants, either a huge release of A. Andersonii, or A. Cucumeris. If your plants are small and have along way to go in veg, then you might consider using an Avid, Forbid, Avid treatment 3 days apart from each other. Dunking the entire plant is the best way to be sure you get the little bastards.
All that said, I was able to completely eradicate a pretty severe infestation of them with only heat and predatory mites. My plants were in flower so chemicals were out of the question. I saved the crop and surpassed production goals so it can be done. I have yet to use any chemicals and have been BM free for several months now. I still hang a slow release bag of A. Cucumeris on each plant as a preventative measure. It's cheap insurance and I have not seen anything other than a few fungus gnats in months.

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

For the life of me I cannot find one mite or egg on the leaves.


If not Broad mites/Russet Mites wtf am I dealing with?

Perfectly healthy clones producing twisted new growth after 1 week in the pot.


Larger plants with curved growth that bleaches out on the side of the leaf that it curls towards.

For what its worth the plants in my location across town are not showing these symptoms as of today but if its contagious it wont be long.

Any ideas?

 

[Myco]

Thanks for getting some pics @Smokeyjojackson - some of the pics definitely do look suspect for BM damage, particularly the pics depicting the wrinkled/deformed new growth. Side note, the minor leaf curve deformity with the bleaching isn't always indicative of BM's... I've seen that in clean gardens.

Like @Coir said, the first thing that needs to be done is properly ID'ing the issue. Since you say this has been ongoing for multiple cycles, that of course is concerning. The only other thing that I've seen cause that deformed new growth is CHEMICALS. As in, I have to ask, are you so worried that you *might* have BM's due to the leaf curve/bleach (which doesn't necessarily mean BM damage) that you are treating/spraying anything on your young clones?

And YES. Any insect/mite can build resistance to pesticides. Did you not read my post? I did not rely simply on Forbid, and used many means with a set plan. Let me quote myself, see below regarding resistance. And YES. I'm very familiar with the IC BM thread.. and YES, there are things that work and things that don't, and I would NEVER recommend on relying on Forbid alone. I simply said that the leading treatments of BM's are heat treatments and Forbid, AKA spiromesifen. That is fact.

I do ask that anybody taking in clones takes EXTREME caution, and to quarantine, quarantine, quarantine. Average preventative measures don't seem to be enough. I don't recommend using Forbid 4F... and I really wish I didn't have to necessarily. But out of all of the research I did... I wanted to be damn sure that I got rid of the evil little microscopic bastards. So IMO, a treatment of nukes (Forbid) and following up with other means, such as heat treatments, Cap's foliar, etc, and then another dose Forbid if you wish.

DO NOT OVER-APPLY, OVER-TREAT WITH FORBID. Your plants should never receive Forbid more than 1-2 times in the entire lifespan... otherwise you will create resistant mites. A couple of hydro/indoor growing paradigm-related websites that sell Forbid simply say "studies have shown no resistance problems with Forbid"... however, if you read the entire label/instructions provided with the bottle of Forbid 4F, you will see:

"...repeated use of any plant protection product may increase the development of resistant strains of pests, including insects and mites. Using Forbid 4F in successive miticide applications during the same growing season is not recommend. Use Forbid 4F as part of a sound resistance management program that includes rotation with other treatments with different modes of action."

So, a little common sense goes a long way. Be sure to read the entire label when using highly toxic compounds. Be safe. Wear personal protection gear. Dispose of properly as not to contaminate the environment. Understand that Forbid 4F and other 'nukes' are designed for ORNAMENTALS and understand the risks associated with such.

And I'm sure you are stressed about whatever it is you are dealing with... these things can really eat away at a dedicated grower. But if you are not seeing any eggs or mites no matter how hard you look... that's a tough one. Maybe you don't have BM's? I do know that Hemp Russets are a lot easier to locate... but if you're not seeing anything with a 100x, no matter how hard you look... then it would be time to start considering other matters.

Edit: For the record, you don't apply aspirin as a foliar, add it to your nutrient solution and water it into the rootzone.

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

I did read your post I just neglected to acknowledge that aspect as I didn't really sleep last night.

Im a bit off today as a result. I apologize.

The minor curve/bleaching was what got me asking questions in the first place. My blueberry has shown that trait for as long as I can remember but the strange growth and weird looking top growth on random plants is new.

The strangle growth on the clones is new.

In fact everything except the Blueberry are plants that were brought in from a local clone supplier in the last month or so.

Just typing this out is making me question whether I screwed the pooch and allowed dirty clones through quarantine.

I agree that the clone growth does resemble BM and some of the new growth on the Blueberry might as well, but the lack of any signs of eggs or mites is throwing me off.

I will continue to scan for mites.

I have cooked my room twice now at 115-120 for 1-1.25 hours and I will be feeding with some aspirin next time as it cant really hurt.

If no mites are found where should I look next?

PH?

Deficiency/Lockout of some sort?

I do appreciate the help and I am sorry for hijacking your thread.

I should have just started my own.

 

[Seamaiden]

Those pix don't look like BM damage to me (remember, I only comb the fora for the knowledge, I have not experienced them myself to this point in time). They look like a mosaic virus in combination with the plant being rather unhappy with pH parameters to me. @Smokeyjojackson

Aspirin can hurt if you use too much, so be careful. No more than one 325mg tablet per gallon. I would do a slurry test on the soil/media to find out what the pH and perhaps EC are.

Btw, I have seen the twisting, crinkling, and patterned discoloration on some strains I don't have anymore. Definitely was not anything like BMs, I think it was either a latent mosaic virus presenting in the subsequent generation, or that it had been vectored.

 

[Coir]

I would send tissue in for testing. It is very possible that you have picked up clones that were infected with a virus at some point. Depending on what part of the country you are in, thrips can infect plants with several viruses while they feed. That virus would be carried over in every generation of clone from the infected plant. I have seen entire greenhouses of tomatoes and peppers wiped out by this. If you need to save the genetics then testing and removing of infected plants would be the way to go. If you don't need to save them, starting from known good genetics would be the least expensive and fastest road to recovery.

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

Ok Seamaiden I am soaking some soil from one of the worse looking pots and will do a slurry test after it sits for a bit to see if its an obvious PH matter.

While I don't want to hear it I am very aware it could be a virus of some sort as bugs don't seem to be present anywhere. Not sure I should say this but I would almost prefer bugs as that can be dealt with. I am not sure what to do with a virus.

@Coir I would be more than happy to send in a tissue sample to rule anything out or pin it down.

Where can a guy send a tissue sample of a federally regulated plant for testing for potential virus's etc?

I have lost primo genetics before and still cringe at the memory...

This Blueberry is pretty damn unique. Dispensary owners tell me its an amazing pheno and some ask for clones which I just don't do anymore.

I would like to save it if possible or at least find out of its savable.

I also realistically cant afford to burn this crop yet. I am looking at over 100 plants half of which are already going in 4 gal pots. I have thousands sunk into this run already. I am sure many here understand.

I never knew I was going to be a farmer or just what that entailed.....

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

Ok for what its worth I took a sample of soil from one of the plants that looks the most like it has a ph issue.

Did a slurry and let it sit for 3 hours before testing it.

The slurry tested at 6.5 exactly

Sounds like PH can be ruled out.

That is only a 1% sample of my crop but the whole batch of soil was mixed to the same standard at the same time.

It was even spread out on a tarp and mixed together for a more homogenous mix for everything. I tend to obsess and wanted to make sure everything was the same.

I would assume that everything else would test at a very similar level.

Correct me if I am wrong on that assumption.

 

[Coir]

I would look for the thread on here somewhere about Fusarium and see if you can find some pictures. In tomatoes, fusarium will do that same thing to the leaves. I have never seen it on Cannabis so can't say for sure. Also, is there any way these were exposed to some sort of chemical like an herbicide or ethylene? I saw some really strange symptoms recently on some plants and it turns out there was something in the room that was causing the issues. The people went through three rounds of new cuts always seeing the same problems a week or two in. The finally relocated their grow room to a different location and problem solved. I don't know if they ever figured out what exactly was causing it but they think it was from the adhesive someone used on the old flooring. The floor was cracking and peeling up and had a strange smell underneath it.

 

[Smokeyjojackson]

@Coir I havent hit them with anything out of the ordinary just Azamax a week ago.

As far as herbicides/ethylene I cant think of anything off the top of my head that would have exposed them to either. I go out a lot and its not completely impossible that I might have walked through an area that was sprayed and carried it home to a couple of the girls.

I just gave everyone a foliar with OGbiowar foliar pack (just arrived today) and watered with 1 325mg Aspirin per gallon of water to give them a little boost.
It was supposed to be nute day but I figured I would skip this feed and hit them with another dose of tea with the Ogbiowar nute/root pack added this weekend when they are ready again.

I really need to go grab an EC pen to test the EC on the soil/nutes occasionally to verify I have not been overfeeding.

As to the Fusarium virus I took a look at that thread and the pictures and my issue symptoms don't match up closely enough in my mind to be Fusarium. In flower I get no bleaching like the poster in that thread.

I will get some more photos up in the next day or so just for fun and try to get some different shots of the strange blotchy spots and the lower leaves that look to me to be showing ph issues/burn even though the PH is 6.5


I want to be clear that the plants aren't in some rapid decline and I have no doubt everything will get through flower just fine. I see that something is potentially awry and I want to address the issues.

If it is a virus so be it.

Mites? So be it.

I just want to know.
Can anyone suggest where I might get some tissue samples tested?

 

[Seamaiden]

You know what? I would like to know as well, so I think it's thread time.

 

[Soil Watch]

It always makes me cringe when I see folks using Forbid, et. al. Do you not realize this product is for ORNIMENTALS ONLY! You are ingesting pure poison when you use these types of Pesticides or Miticides.

The entomologist at Everwood Farm has posted notes (and they are notes so give them a call if you have a question) on dealing with these critters for a completely organic IPM program, so do yourself a favor and check it out. http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Pest_Insect_Cross_Listing/Help_with_Russet_Cyclamen_and_Broad_Mites

 

[Coir]

It always makes me cringe when I see folks using Forbid, et. al. Do you not realize this product is for ORNIMENTALS ONLY! You are ingesting pure poison when you use these types of Pesticides or Miticides.

The entomologist at Everwood Farm has posted notes (and they are notes so give them a call if you have a question) on dealing with these critters for a completely organic IPM program, so do yourself a favor and check it out. http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Pest_Insect_Cross_Listing/Help_with_Russet_Cyclamen_and_Broad_Mites

Interesting. You have made three posts here and all of them mention Everwood Farms. There is a rule about advertisers needing to become paid sponsors. Not saying you are trying to advertise for free but it does seem a bit suspicious.

 

[Soil Watch]

Fair point, and in a manner of speaking I am. They have saved my girls so many times I have lost count, so naturally I feel compelled to share when I see folks making the same mistakes I waded through. For some reason, I thought the purpose of the thread was to find solutions... This just happens to be the place where I have had consistently good advise compared to the dozens of places that only want to sell you something that usually doesn't work. However, I will certainly respect your request and avoid mentioning this site in the future.