Botanicare Liquid Karma

[Aqua Man]

Yep & this was pretty much the intent of my OP in a nutshell.

Yeah more helpful in organic maybe less so with inorganic nutrients. Again going to depend on the individual grow.

Nothing about growing cannabis can really be blanket stated. It all depends on many different variables. To me this "may" is a responsible statement made by the company and I think we should see more honesty like this from more of the companies

 

[MIMedGrower]

Something has to break down organic nutrients. I would have to say the proof is that the plants aren't starving.

Plenty of studies to show the symbiotic relationships and how myco actually penetrate the roots. Even bacteria form relationships with fungi.

Plants don't take up organic nutrients. While some claims may be exaggerated microbes absolutely are key.

Myco is shown to attach. Im not disputing myco except i dont see the point in a container full of roots. I said microbes. No proof adding them works just like no proof adding them to human digestive systems works.


They do appear naturally when conditions are good and thats how plants get their food broken down.


In a study i read last year of an organic farm the writer showed that when compost tea was sprayed there was a bloom of microbe activity. And as fast as they bloom they go away as the food source depletes. None really stayed with the plants after. So they stay if we feed them but they only eat the supplied food. They are actually in competition with the plants for food.

All the product descriptions and tea info say they can identify all these microbes and bacteria lime the book teaming with microbes.

But nowhere do they show that a symbiotic relationship with the plant is formed with the added microbes.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Yep & this was pretty much the intent of my OP in a nutshell.

Yes but the seaweed and humic acid have quantifiable results.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Yeah more helpful in organic maybe less so with inorganic nutrients. Again going to depend on the individual grow.

Nothing about growing cannabis can really be blanket stated. It all depends on many different variables. To me this "may" is a responsible statement made by the company and I think we should see more honesty like this from more of the companies

“May” is the word used in advertising when the result is unproven.

 

[Aqua Man]

“May” is the word used in advertising when the result is unproven.

Not sure I buy that.

May in this would appear to suggest under certain circumstances it will be and others it won't be. So you may see a benefit.

But just because it says may does not mean it will never benefit. Enzymes may benefit some and not other. Plenty of products may help. Adding mag sulfate may help. That can be said for any product. Even base nutrients. Adding npk may help

 

[MIMedGrower]

Not sure I buy that.

May in this would appear to suggest under certain circumstances it will be and others it won't be. So you may see a benefit.

But just because it says may does not mean it will never benefit. Enzymes may benefit some and not other. Plenty of products may help. Adding mag sulfate may help. That can be said for any product. Even base nutrients. Adding npk may help

When you sell a scientifically proven product the fda allows you to claim effectiveness. When it is not proven you can say “may” on your label.

I learned this when i worked for the pharma company from our fda rep.

 

[Aqua Man]

Myco is shown to attach. Im not disputing myco except i dont see the point in a container full of roots. I said microbes. No proof adding them works just like no proof adding them to human digestive systems works.


They do appear naturally when conditions are good and thats how plants get their food broken down.


In a study i read last year of an organic farm the writer showed that when compost tea was sprayed there was a bloom of microbe activity. And as fast as they bloom they go away as the food source depletes. None really stayed with the plants after. So they stay if we feed them but they only eat the supplied food. They are actually in competition with the plants for food.

All the product descriptions and tea info say they can identify all these microbes and bacteria lime the book teaming with microbes.

But nowhere do they show that a symbiotic relationship with the plant is formed with the added microbes.

Now you talking about population more so. Not necessarily the existence. I agree with you on this.

For instance hydrogaurd is a bacteria beneficial to the plant. Have seen it clear up root tor many times.

They do occur naturally but not all strains exist everywhere. Just like Bacillus amyloliquefaciens in hydrogaurd so they are artificially added. I do agree many claims are exaggerated immensely. But for example denitrifying bacteria can take 6 weeks to develop naturally and yet can be seeded and performing in days. This is something I have done for many many years. And tested and verified myself.

Just because they occur naturally doesn't mean seeding is not beneficial but I do agree that once an adequate colony exist there is no benefit to over inflating the population

 

[Aqua Man]

When you sell a scientifically proven product the fda allows you to claim effectiveness. When it is not proven you can say “may” on your label.

I learned this when i worked for the pharma company from our fda rep.

Sure or if you don't want just through the cost or hoops to do so.

I'm not saying any specific product works or doesn't. I'm saying there may be conditions in which they work and conditions in which they don't. That goes for all products.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Now you talking about population more so. Not necessarily the existence. I agree with you on this.

For instance hydrogaurd is a bacteria beneficial to the plant. Have seen it clear up root tor many times. We

They do occur naturally bit not all strains exist everywhere. Just like Bacillus amyloliquefaciens in hydrogaurd so they are artificially added. I do agree many claims are exaggerated immensely. But for example denitrifying bacteria can take 6 weeks to develop naturally and yet can be seeded and performing in days. This is something I have done for many many years. And tested and verified myself.

Just because they occur naturally doesn't mean seeding is not beneficial but I do agree that once an adequate colony exist there is no benefit to over inflating the population

Introducing bacteria or fungus that eats or harms bad stuff in the medium or on the roots is not the same as saying that introduced bacteria will form a symbiotic relationship with the plants. That is what is not proven.

What you are talking about is basically sub atomic nematodes.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Sure or if you don't want just through the cost or hoops to do so.

I'm not saying any specific product works or doesn't. I'm saying there may be conditions in which they work and conditions in which they don't. That goes for all products.

May is not a word worth spending money on.

 

[Glassdub]

My last job in Colorado was account manager for a natural eye care company that only supplied eye doctors and naturepaths.

Out homeopathic eye drops helped return eyesight and eliminate illness in many patients that were “patient” enoigh to keep using them.

I had reports from patients and doctors of elderly cataract patients get their drivers license back. Glaucoma completely subside and macular degeneration reverse.

And in the last 20 years doctors have seen a cause of action at the microscopic level from homeopathic medicine in the human body.

I dont know what further advances have been made i left the business over 13 years ago.

I sold to over 10,000 doctors and naturepaths.

Probably the last person on here I would expect to make apologetics for homeopathy, what next astrology, flat earth? Sad day.

 

[Aqua Man]

Introducing bacteria or fungus that eats or harms bad stuff in the medium or on the roots is not the same as saying that introduced bacteria will form a symbiotic relationship with the plants. That is what is not proven.

What you are talking about is basically sub atomic nematodes.

Symbiotic simply means both benefit so yes it does. Just like bacteria that are fed from the plant and produce enzymes that break down organic nutrients for the plant to uptake. The bacteria in nature and artificial are attracted to the root zone as a food source in turn they provide a benefit to the plants in terms of defense and breaking down organic nutrients.

So yes that's the very definition of symbiotic

 

[Aqua Man]

May is not a word worth spending money on.

It is if it works for you. It's not if it doesn't.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Probably the last person on here I would expect to make apologetics for homeopathy, what next astrology, flat earth? Sad day.

No one was more skeptical than me. It took 6 months for the owner to convince me to take the job even.

I showed the studies he sent me to my own family doctor and he agreed that there was info on actual cause of action that interested him.

I wish i had my studies from my old office to show you. Naturepaths learn this stuff in school now.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Symbiotic simply means both benefit so yes it does. Just like bacteria that are fed from the plant and produce enzymes that break down organic nutrients for the plant to uptake. The bacteria in nature and artificial are attracted to the root zone as a food source in turn they provide a benefit to the plants in terms of defense and breaking down organic nutrients.

So yes that's the very definition of symbiotic

You know i meant proof that they actually colonize and feed the plant.

 

[Aqua Man]

You know i meant proof that they actually colonize and feed the plant.

If using organic nutrients how else does the plant get nutrients?

 

[MIMedGrower]

If using organic nutrients how else does the plant get nutrients?

When conditions are proper and organics are present they appear. You can add dry organics to a pot and a plant and no outside mocrobes and the plant will grow anyway.

Myco occurs naturally too. When i tested ocean forest (no added myco) vs happy frog (many strains added myco) both rootballs had visible myco at transplant.

Fox farm even says that there is no need for adding it with all the organic material present. Happy frog is their budget soil and has much less organic inputs. Hence the myco charge. Pro mix too.

 

[Aqua Man]

When conditions are proper and organics are present they appear. You can add dry organics to a pot and a plant and no outside mocrobes and the plant will grow anyway.

Myco occurs naturally too. When i tested ocean forest (no added myco) vs happy frog (many strains added myco) both rootballs had visible myco at transplant.

Fox farm even says that there is no need for adding it with all the organic material present. Happy frog is their budget soil and has much less organic inputs. Hence the myco charge. Pro mix too.

I never said there was a need. I said there "may" be a benefit. In those soils there is some nutrients already available not fully organic form.

 

[Aqua Man]

Again not all beneficial strains of bacteria exist everywhere so it may be beneficial to add them. Again depending on all the variables

 

[Glassdub]

Yes but the seaweed and humic acid have quantifiable results.

Robert addressed this in the Humus post under Humic Substances, the intent was to point out that humus (or humic acid) is a ill defined vagary that may as well be called compost or black gold (my words) so when companies include it as an ingredient it could mean anything or nothing so in practical terms just snake oil.