bottled nutrients

[ookiimata]

I've read that process for gathering and cultivating bennies before, and considered it. I concluded that in my situation, it's more practical to just buy relatively inexpensive products that contain the known desired microbes and bacteria. I'm on a very small scale, though, which is what makes that practical and affordable. I wouldn't mind attempting it sometime as an additive to the compost bin, however.

 

[mellokitty]

my parents have been using EM liquid since the 80's, their compost pile has some of the highest turnover i've ever seen, and their bathroom looks like a science experiment exploded because they're constantly 'brewing' more of it.

i've heard that 'guardian angel' is essentially the same em liquid with a cutesy package (and $$$ price tag) - it certainly self-propagates in water the same way.

never tried it in my room consistenly enough to say whether it does one thing or another though....

 

[dextr0]

I've read that process for gathering and cultivating bennies before, and considered it. I concluded that in my situation, it's more practical to just buy relatively inexpensive products that contain the known desired microbes and bacteria. I'm on a very small scale, though, which is what makes that practical and affordable. I wouldn't mind attempting it sometime as an additive to the compost bin, however.

Yes ookii, you are right. I suppose everything usually breaks down to time and energy...both of which seem to be lacking in peoples days.

I do find it easy to let a box of rice set in a patch of bamboo for a couple of days. I also find it interesting they they themselves have methods of getting "wanted" organisms into there mix, just not as scientific. Different directions (N,S,E,W) all pertain to different organisms and there environments. For instance such and such side may get more light during days so there is such and such organism to be found there because thats the environment it thrives in. The different colors of molds (again not very Scientificy); blue, red, green, etc. are to be avoided for the most part as they are anaerobic. Thats not to say that you cant see them there, you just do not want them covering your box. Your going for the white mycelia that tells you you have friendlies.

Now after that they take one step further and work on increasing specific colonies through mixed perpetration of different known food (specific foods).
If you look here you will see what I mean a little better then im probably explaining.






(Im sorry so long yall)
But like you said and I agreed on, people dont really have time to do that if they are not sure they are getting a superior product in the end. I have to wonder where the hell these big company's (or little) get there supply of microbes.
Another thing Ive proposed in Farmer Johns thread on microbes was using a said brand of microbes to inoculate soil and culturing those (store bought) microbes and stretching our microbes like that. You can find that here, its the 8th post. Good thread though so its worth checkin out imo.


respects,
dextr0

 

[Seamaiden]

It was relayed to me that there are fairly few 'manufacturers' who supply mycos, and anyone who says they have live viables in a liquid condition is not being truthful, that they can only continue in spore (dry) form. I was told that, because of this, most all fertilizer manufacturers get their mycos from the same source. I haven't checked the veracity of the information, but the source is pretty reliable.

^^^So proof is not in the pudding anymore??..:worried

Lol, joking. I think its backwards to think in terms of aerobic or anaerobic and categorize them as shes trying to do. Yes there is a difference but to say one or the other is all around better is misleading at best.

Well now wait a minute, you can't ascribe the notion of separating aerobic vs anaerobic organisms to her. For one thing, it's factual, they exist. For another, she's reporting on papers she's found, she didn't make the terminology up herself, others have done so before her. That's unfair and misleading in my opinion to suggest that this is specious terminology made up by someone. Let's also not forget that the woman has put in some serious study time of her own, you don't achieve PhD status in two years.

The main point she's making, and I absolutely must agree with her, is that it is difficult at BEST to try to scientifically quantify and qualify what's happening with any compost tea, and therefore that condition makes it difficult to make unequivocal statements about anything on compost teas UNTIL those variables can be stabilized and not be what they are--variable.

Also, she's not saying that one or the other is better, she's saying that they each have their applications AND that there really is too much of a good thing. As I mentioned there are four parts to her series on compost, so you might want to go visit the site and read the articles at your leisure.

In studying microbes you'll find most of the time most will be both depending on environment. If I do any categorizing I look at environment and say well this has more of a chance of growing in my room as opposed to this because it fits more the profile of what its known to thrive. For instance a microbe that lives in salt-water may or may not thrive in soil. I infer this because ph, temp etc are known to affect microorganisms in Fermenting and Composting...
That said im looking for whats best suited for my grow and the conditions it is in. Also what is the best known microbe for the job im looking to for it to do.

Are you saying that anerobes can live side-by-side with aerobes? This is new to me, something I've never heard of (in fact, the opposite is what I've learned).

CT, great thread. U know what Ive been wondering alot about lately. I wonder if as its been said in good soil there are such and such beneficial organisms why are we not utilizing that instead of store brought products? As I get more into natural/organic farming I notice that is exactly what they do. Not really common in our circles, I guess really my question is what is your take on making our own organisms as opposed to buying them and the efficiency?

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/BIO-9.pdf

I wonder that, too, especially with more and more people becoming aware of one simple little book that's nothing more than a basic primer, but it's really a basic primer for life (in my opinion).

One thing at issue for me locally--I live in old growth forest, which means that my soils are mostly fungi dominant. Cannabis is an annual much more like vegetables, and so I have to work to get bacteria back in dominance. I'm still not understanding why other cannabis growers are focused on fungi dominance IF one is adhering to the 19 Rules outlined in Teaming With Microbes.

 

[dextr0]

It was relayed to me that there are fairly few 'manufacturers' who supply mycos, and anyone who says they have live viables in a liquid condition is not being truthful, that they can only continue in spore (dry) form. I was told that, because of this, most all fertilizer manufacturers get their mycos from the same source. I haven't checked the veracity of the information, but the source is pretty reliable.

Well now wait a minute, you can't ascribe the notion of separating aerobic vs anaerobic organisms to her. For one thing, it's factual, they exist. For another, she's reporting on papers she's found, she didn't make the terminology up herself, others have done so before her. That's unfair and misleading in my opinion to suggest that this is specious terminology made up by someone. Let's also not forget that the woman has put in some serious study time of her own, you don't achieve PhD status in two years.

The main point she's making, and I absolutely must agree with her, is that it is difficult at BEST to try to scientifically quantify and qualify what's happening with any compost tea, and therefore that condition makes it difficult to make unequivocal statements about anything on compost teas UNTIL those variables can be stabilized and not be what they are--variable.

Also, she's not saying that one or the other is better, she's saying that they each have their applications AND that there really is too much of a good thing. As I mentioned there are four parts to her series on compost, so you might want to go visit the site and read the articles at your leisure.

Are you saying that anaerobes can live side-by-side with aerobes? This is new to me, something I've never heard of (in fact, the opposite is what I've learned).

I wonder that, too, especially with more and more people becoming aware of one simple little book that's nothing more than a basic primer, but it's really a basic primer for life (in my opinion).

One thing at issue for me locally--I live in old growth forest, which means that my soils are mostly fungi dominant. Cannabis is an annual much more like vegetables, and so I have to work to get bacteria back in dominance. I'm still not understanding why other cannabis growers are focused on fungi dominance IF one is adhering to the 19 Rules outlined in Teaming With Microbes.

If you notice now alot of mixtures have their mycos mixed with trichoderma, which feeds on fungus. I wonder how active those would be. I hear u on the spores, that was one of the things that is important to the inoculation of soil. Actually with the method it was saying you pull up whatever crop u have growing (I would grow whatever I want to ferment for fertilizer, 2 birds 1 stone). That will cause the mycos to make spores and u use that to inoculate more soil...Cool huh?

I was not ascribing the notion of separating aerobic vs anaerobic organisms to her at all. Her papers just have a negative tone to them. Its like an organic gardener writing about chemical ferts.

Yes alot of microorganisms are both anerorobic and aerobic, as i said depending on envioroment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facultative_anaerobic_organism
Facultative anaerobic organism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aerobic and anaerobic bacteria can be identified by growing them in liquid culture:
1. Obligate aerobe
2. Obligate anaerobe
3. Facultative anaerobic organism (continuum with "Facultative aerobic organism")
4. Microaerophile
5. Aerotolerant

A facultative anaerobic organism is an organism, usually a bacterium, that makes ATP by aerobic respiration if oxygen is present but is also capable of switching to fermentation. In contrast, obligate anaerobes die in the presence of oxygen.

Some examples of facultative anaerobic bacteria are Staphylococcus (Gram positive), Escherichia coli and Shewanella oneidensis (Gram negative), and Listeria (Gram positive). Certain eukaryote phyla are also facultative anaerobes, including fungi such as yeasts and many aquatic invertebrates such as Nereid (worm) polychaetes, for example.[1] There are also circulating white blood cells that are classified as facultative anaerobes. These include neutrophils, monocytes and tissue macrophages.

The concentrations of oxygen and fermentable material in the environment influence the organism's use of aerobic respiration vs. fermentation to derive energy. In brewer's yeast, the Pasteur shift is the observed cessation of oxygen consumption when fermentable sugar is supplied. In a growing culture, the energy "economics" disfavors respiration due to the "overhead cost" of producing the apparatus, as long as sufficient fermentable substrate is available, even though the energy output per mole of fermented material is far less than from respiration's complete oxidation of the same substrate.

If you scroll down a little here it lists some facultative micros:
http://books.google.com/books?id=A2...epage&q=azotobacter anaerobic aerobic&f=false

I have to look up the 19 rules in Teaming with Microbes, but for me it depends on what im trying to accomplish. Mycos are for my roots because I need something to break down phosphorous, and I am under the assumption that micos help utilize nutrients so its less feeding period.

 

[Seamaiden]

Not just mycorrhizea are responsible/helpful for mineralizing nutrients.

I learn reading about facultative anaerobes, and you learn reading about the 19 Rules of Teaming With Microbes. Gimme a minute, I'll just retype.

1. Some plants prefer soils dominated by fungi; others prefer soils dominated by bacteria.
2. Most vegetables, annuals, and grasses prefer their nitrogen in nitrate form and do best in bacterially dominated soils.
3. Most trees, shrubs and perennials prefer their nitrogen in ammonium form and do best in fungally dominated soils.
4. Compost can be used to inoculate beneficial microbes and life into soils around your yard and introduce, maintain, or alter the soil food web in a particular area.
5. Adding compost and its soil food web to the surface of the soil will inoculate the soil with the same soil food web.
6. Aged, brown organic materials support fungi; fresh, green organic materials support bacteria.
7. Mulch laid on the surface tends to support fungi; mulch worked into the soil tends to support bacteria.
8. If you wet and grind mulch thoroughly, it speeds up bacterial colonization.
9. Coarse, dryer mulches support fungal activity.
10. Sugars help bacteria multiply and grow; kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts help fungi grow.
11. By choosing the compost you begin with and what nutrients you add to it, you can make teas that are heavily fungal, bacterially dominated, or balanced.
12. Compost teas are very sensitive to chlorine and preservatives in the brewing water and ingredients.
13. Applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes.
14. Stay away from additives that have high NPK numbers. (Nothing over 10!)*
15. Follow any chemical spraying or soil drenching with an application of compost tea.
16. Most conifers and hardwood trees (birch, oak, beech, hickory) form mycorrhizae with ectomycorrhizal fungi.
17. Most vegetables, annuals, grasses, shrubs, softwood trees, and perennials form mycorrhizae with endomycorrhizal fungi.
18. Rototilling and excessive soil disturbance destroy or severely damage the soil food web.
19. Always mix endomycorrhizal fungi with the seeds of annuals and vegetables at planting time or apply them to roots at time of transplanting.

*My note, specified elsewhere in the book.

 

[dextr0]

Ive seen you post about the bacteria preference before. I actually just choose to incorporate both in what I feel will thrive with my plant. Of course as I learn more and more I find myself doing more and more research. Mychorrhiza was just one of the first, (and of course the most visible affects...cant forget the pictures, right medi...lol.) micros that I learned about. Hence the old dog likes his old trick. One thing im trying to do is find out what microorganisms are cannabis specific (bacteria/fungi/etc.). Mostly by looking up and reading old hemp growing material. (Did you know they found mycorrhiza detrimental to hemp growing in a few papers Ive read? True.). This is gonna take some work though as there is little to find on both subjects. <<<Short of this and for the ease of it, I will be using Indiginous microorganisms collected from outside grows. The soil from around the trunks should be full of imo's in my opinion.
I have the pdf version of Teaming with...and I need to sit down and read it. Im just wondering more about why she prefers bacterial dominance instead of fungal.

Farmer Johns thread is the start of my finds and he has added plenty himself. Jobs of different fungi, bacteria, etc.
The wonderful world of Microbiology

 

[GanjaGardener]

I've been working out a system that promotes facultative organisms in a tea-fermentation hybrid for the past several months. Despite not having the resources or knowledge of a trained scientist, I've been able to dial in a working formula that has dramatically improved my grow culture in two areas-
1)nute uptake- 3"/day growth over a 4-5 day period during early flower. 1/3 larger plant size, (same strain)
2)NO pests- absolutely zero insects in the flower rooms for 3-4 weeks. No neem, soap, or pesticide of any kind. No insects on yellow cards.

I'm not certain how much of the 0 insect population is a result of the facultatives or how much the fermented gasses in the flower rms are in play for the zero insect population.

I make adjustments/tweaks between aerobic/anaerobic states every day or so- O2 circulation intensity, sugar, yeast additions based on of odor of brew- particularly the sedentary bottom. I'd like to be able to lay the science out, but in lieu of that, I'm just going to keep trucking and stick w/ a good thing that I more or less fell into and am still trying to figure out.

 

[dextr0]

^^^Interesting. I have to say I also have noticed I have no pests after I started feeding with Fermented extracts. In-fact I had a problem with root aphids, then all of a sudden I see none. I even flowered my moms because I had a problem, and now gone.

 

[GanjaGardener]

^^^Interesting. I have to say I also have noticed I have no pests after I started feeding with Fermented extracts. In-fact I had a problem with root aphids, then all of a sudden I see none. I even flowered my moms because I had a problem, and now gone.

If fermentative facultative organisms are present, or are added, such as EM inocula, lactic acid fermenters such as in production of yogurt or kimchee, the facultative anaerobes will compete with and prevent the growth of the human pathogens. Typically the organic acids produced by fermentative facultative anaerobes and the competition for foods suppress human pathogens.
Inhibition of un-desirable organisms through production of antibiotics may occur, which means bio-pesticide abilities should be recognized.
But, the conditions that routinely encourages the growth of the inhibitory, competitive biology that removes the human pathogens and other disease-causing organisms, has not been documented. The problem with compost teas that become reduced in oxygen for a period of time is lack of knowledge of how long was the tea brew anaerobic? How reduced in oxygen did it become? What foods were present, to select for the growth of which organisms?
Once facultative, fermentative organisms growth conditions become as well understood as the conditions for actively aerated beneficial organisms to grow, then this kind of compost tea might be as accepted.
But until we understand how to make fermentative teas so they consistently and routinely produce the desired results, we should avoid the hype that says they can be used safely.

Excerpt from:

Good little primer. I was going for the catalytic properties of fermentation- breaking down nutes/ minerals for easier 'crobes digestion - the bio-pesticide properties were a bonus. I've obviously disregarded the warning but I was already well into it before I went looking for the science to explain what it was that I was into. :character0053:

 

[ookiimata]

Lots of great info. I meant to form my comment about my findings of gathering bennies in more of a question form, hoping that someone would either confirm or argue my conclusions, so I'm glad you agree, dex.

Seamaiden: I was thinking the same thing as you about how beneficial the microbes in my area would be. I also live on an old growth forest, and it's almost entirely pine, which would suggest it will have a dominant amount of ecto rather than endo.

I am interested in adding a small amount of clay to my indoor soil, though, based on the CE info that's been posted on this forum, so I may gather some of the clay from the forest to use. We have nothing but red clay here.

 

[Seamaiden]

We have nothing but red clay here, too. And granite plutons. The Sierra Nevada is a fascinating range of mountains, but then I enjoy "light" geology. Mostly conifers at my elevation, but we also have good oak presence (I live less than a mile away from a place called Indian Grinding Rock, and they don't mean bump 'n' grind, they're talkin' acorns), madrone, toyon, that sort of thing. Mostly, Indian manzanita is by the house, but the duff layer under the manzanita is thick, and it's worked well to use a bucket-ful of that duff to help get compost started.

I used to add clay to my soil, too. The native clay, because it's everywhere. It has helped improve growth and behavior in certain situations, but then for indoor growing I moved to coco.

 

[CT Guy]

Great posts since I last visited this thread. I was at NW Flower and Garden Show all week. Dr. Chalker-Scott was there as well! As for her article, I can tell you that there's a long standing academic feud between her and Dr. Ingham in regards to compost teas. I think they're both a little bit right and a little bit wrong.

Basically, most of the studies that Dr. Chalker-Scott used in her peer review were highly flawed in regards to control and methodology in my opinion. Many of the researchers didn't test dissolved oxygen levels throughout the brew cycle, did not quantify or identify organisms in the tea, or used inferior brewing systems. I can make up a bucket of brown water and call it "compost tea," and then pour it on my plants and say it doesn't work. More rigorous studies need to be conducted on the subject for sure. There's too much anecdotal and testimonial evidence for compost teas to say they don't work at all, though I think they're disease suppressiveness is sometimes overstated. Some people get great results, but I don't think it's a consistent product for dealing with many pathogens.

I have no doubt in my mind that properly made compost teas work well. I would love to see more research on the subject, though there is much evidence as the microbial loop and nutrient cycling within soils based on microbial interactions and activity.

At her latest talk here in Seattle, apparently Dr. Chalker Scott held up a bag of commercial mycorrhizae and said that if you want to get myco in your soil if it's lacking then this is not the answer. She then went on to say that you want to add wood chips as a mulch to get the mycos back in your soil. When the guy who went to her talk told me that, I couldn't help but laugh! Are you kidding me? How is a root symbiant fungus going to be introduced to a soil by adding above ground chipped wood? Not going to happen, and just plain ignorant and wrong on her part to say.

To be fair, Dr. Ingham also told me not to get a phase-contrast microscope because brightfield was better (when using shading) for viewing compost tea organisms. I went and talked to a bunch of famous microbiologists and they all said she was wrong. Phase contrast is better because many of these organism have a refraction index similar to water and phase helps highlight these microbes.

My point being....these scientists aren't always right and they make mistakes all the time (though rarely will their egos let them admit it).

I have some thoughts on the bacterial vs fungal soil dominance that I'll save for another post.

Cheers,
CT

 

[CT Guy]

very interesting talk...CT for a simple tea for a newb brewer...if i am not able to acess the things you use what woul you go with? I was gonna go with AN Mother earth tea....however i am not sure now lol...peace n puffs

http://gardeningwithmicrobes.com/teaarticle2.shtml

 

[GanjaGardener]

:yes Very interesting post CT! Good material and a bit humbling. ie even the scientists and specialists don't always get it right. where does that leave us regulars? lol

 

[Seamaiden]

Well, my husband went and bacterially dominated the veggie bed by rototilling the whole thing.

Interesting that you seem to make rather similar points about the studies Chalker-Scott used as she did.

However, the wood chips, are you saying that the rule outlined in TWM that says woody mulches promote fungal dominance are off..? Or simply that she's (Chalker-Scott) asserting that by solely using wood chips you will achieve inoculation of such fungal spores? I can't believe she would make that sort of assertion, I mean... really?

 

[CT Guy]

Well, my husband went and bacterially dominated the veggie bed by rototilling the whole thing.

Interesting that you seem to make rather similar points about the studies Chalker-Scott used as she did.

However, the wood chips, are you saying that the rule outlined in TWM that says woody mulches promote fungal dominance are off..? Or simply that she's (Chalker-Scott) asserting that by solely using wood chips you will achieve inoculation of such fungal spores? I can't believe she would make that sort of assertion, I mean... really?

Rototilling will definitely make your garden more bacterial-dominant. My parents rototilled their garden 25 years ago and since then, every year my father collects leaves from all the neighbors (literally hundreds of bags) and throws them down in the garden as a thick layer of mulch. Come Fall, he sprays them with compost tea and then lets them decompose over the Winter. By Spring, most of the leaves are gone and he's got all that additional organic matter and nutrients for free! His soil is excellent, no compaction whatsoever, and he hasn't had to rototill since. :)

Your question about woody mulches is a good one. They will promote fungal growth and activity, and are definitely a recommended practice. However, mycorrhizal fungi is a different beast altogether. It is a root symbiant, meaning it needs the roots of a plant in order to grow (come out of spore form). Other fungal hyphae will grow on the wood chips and decompose it, but not mycorrhizal fungi.

Not all plants have a mycorrhizal association, brassicas being the first to spring to mind, however over 90% of plants do. Cannabis has an endo-mycorrhizal association, meaning that it sheathes the roots and helps in water uptake, protects from some root pathgens, and brings P and other nutrients from elsewhere in the soil. I believe I read somewhere that it increases surface area on the roots something like 10,000X.

By adding wood chips to your soil as a mulch, you're not adding mycorrhizal fungi. Now if you chopped up roots from your cannabis plant (that you'd applied myco to when young) and then put those chopped roots in the hole of your new plant when transplanting, then that would be the best way to get active mycorrhizal spores to colonize your new plant. Some growers I know are replanting in old pots and re-using their soil for this very reason.

Was I clear this time on the difference? If not, let me know and I'll try and do a better job of explaining.

Oh, and Jeff has come by when I've been doing microscope work at trade shows (he's a old friend) and then pointed at things on the screen and called them bacteria when they were clearly flagellates or label things as fungal hypahe when they were just pieces of organic matter. His book is excellent and most of the information is solid, but we all have things to learn and all make mistakes. My point is just that "experts" aren't always right. I know a ton of things that Jorge Cervantes has said that are just plain wrong (plants shouldn't go 24 hours in veg or have CO2 levels higher than 800 ppm). I have friends who have pointed out these inaccuracies to me and then showed me research data to support their points. I love learning about this stuff though! :)

Cheers,
CT

 

[Seamaiden]

I love learning about it, too, because it applies to a total way of being, if that makes sense.

You explained the wood chips thing very well, but if Chalker-Scott was asserting that wood chips provide mycorrhizae, then I am, frankly, stunned at such a misstatement.

I do consider TWM to be a basic primer, that's it. But it's a good one and seems fairly complete for the average person who doesn't want to get into all of the microbe ID'ing, logging, etcetera, but wants to go with a more holistic, organic approach to living in their space.

Great discussion!

I wish my dad would do like your dad. My dad's married to Miracle Grow that attaches to the hose sprayer. I can't get him to divorce himself from it, either, even when he sees how spectacularly our veggie garden performs.

Not to brag (but it's really gonna sound like it), but in this ranching/farming area we have quite a few Master Gardeners, and next county over there's a display garden intended to show off the local MGs' (multiple masters, apparently) skills. It produces nothing like our little garden produces. In fact, every summer we get neighbors stopping by asking what we've done to get our garden to grow like it does. I just smile and thank them while my husband protests that he has a brown thumb. I am positive our garden would look like everyone else's if we worked it like theirs.

I just have to get him to understand that we are NOT going to be rototilling annually. No way, no how (may need Blaze's help on this, that new rototiller wasn't a good surprise for me).

 

[dextr0]

I need to go get some clay from the river. I wanna try this:

 

[GanjaGardener]

I lived under coastal live oaks for 30 years, mulched w/ oak leaves, had a chipper that could take 2" diameter branches and worked 2 compost heaps. I must agree that the assertion about wood chips (undecomposed or not) is a bit hard to swallow (pun intended.)

We already know that raw wood acts as an N magnet until broken down. Depending upon the C/N ratio of the wood, the grid size of the chips and the application (ie intensive composting, mulching, laying in a pile weathering) it can take anywhere from a few months to several years before fresh cut wood becomes bacteria friendly. A large redwood that falls onto a forest floor that's teaming w/ microbial life can take 500 years+ to decompose. The juglone found in undecomposed walnut (there's a lot of old growth walnut in our area), is downright deadly to plant life until it leaches out into the ground and you don't want to plant into the soil it leached into for at least a year.

While holding up a bag and claiming that wood chips are all that one needs to introduce mycos into their soil may be good for livening up a talk, the dramatic effect backfired in this instance.
_________________________________

Cervantes, Rosenthal, and Frank's books all have erroneous info in them. According to Cervantes, growers should be able to frame out a room, panda wrap it, add a new breaker, run 220 electric, mount ballasts, lights and timers, hang an intake/exhaust system, set-up platforms and be dialed in and ready to go within a week. I was about 2 or 3 weeks into my first indoor build when I stopped believing in Jorge.
__________________________________

Caveat/s to my last post, (fermentation/faculative organisms)
- fermentation is an adjunct to my nute program not it's centerpiece
- it's an experiment in progress- not a solution. In fact, the organic chemistry underlying the interplay of fermentation and the microbial loop is so dense and complex, (ie what's being eaten? who's digesting whom? what's being excreted? at what O2 level and in what strata of the vat? at what temp? in what period of the fermentation cycle? at what sugar content? yeast content? microbial count?), trying to quantify the process apart from the controlled environment of a laboratory is next to impossible. I've found what I believe to be a sweet spot for the multiple processes. Using smell as a guide, I've been able to maintain activity for 3-4 weeks w/ none of the anaerobic funk associated w/ bad crobes taking over the show at the sedentary bottom simply by adjusting yeast and sugar levels. But that's about it.
- the visible improvement in the growing culture and the apparent disappearance of insects could be the result of many factors other than the use of fermented fert reductions: 1) increased levels of CO2 from fermentation 2) d-limonene bleed into solution from oranges and systemic uptake, 3) other nute program changes- major increase in chitin and addition of some new mined mineral products, ie silica, increased Ca

For all I know, fermenting my own ferts could just be a temporary phase that I'm going through. :drunk Interesting stuff to work with, however, and the plants haven't rebelled thus far.