Breeding for whorls

FlyinJStable · Nov 7, 2015

Its such a Blast doin a Fly By in the house of Three Leaf
Always great to see your Work Sat-Man
Hope your rockin the green and your in a Happy place.
Sending ya the J Vibes Bro
Peace FlyJ

geologic · Nov 7, 2015

Sativied said:
So... in Mexico they can grow cannabis indoors now and I still have to sneak around... Great for the Mexicans of course, felicidad, but it just shows again how messed up the situation in NL is.

Some folks here on The Farm--
have been doing that for quite awhile down there...

Sativied · Nov 7, 2015

Oh I forgot the word legally in there, I'm sure they've been able to grow cannabis for a long time. They just got a big step closer to legalization:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/americas/mexico-supreme-court-legal-marijuana/
while we're going steps backwards.

Sativied · Nov 11, 2015

The tri turned out to be indeed one with a small/lower middle finger, the quad turned out to be a tri though, missing a middle finger on one gave it a quad look...

Would have preferred more narrow leaflets like some of the others...

Some of the new batch:

And the pale one:

It looks an awful lot like the previous pale one, which was from the IH bag...

Sativied · Nov 12, 2015

AW5 clone, apart from some minor clawing it's still doing great. Damn shame it hermies. The AW5 bud tastes more like amnesia than the strong smelling frosty-but leafy AW4, also the fastest, and best bud structure. One of the things that make Original Haze special is that it's not very likely to herm despite the Thai in it. In the description of AW they mentioned they crossed the (Haze x Afghani) with Thai:
"To ensure that none of the uplifting high is lost, Amnesia White [(Haze x Afghani, I think SSH x afghani)] has also been back-crossed with the Thai ancestors that give Haze most of its awesome power."

... I get the impression they also crossed thai's hermie sensitivity back in... They should have used Original Haze instead. I wanted to cross the amnesia cut with afghani till I found AW. Maybe I should still do that and cross the result back to amnesia or use O Haze. Either way, the three-way cross AW of (Haze x Afghani) x Thai turned out to be as stable as I expected, not stable at all. I still think their could be great plants in the AW x AW I created, maybe some day when it will be easier to lab test for hermies.

I always recommend people to ditch hermies and certainly not clone them and run them again but I'm happy with her-him... and curious if she will herm as badly and as soon. Anyway, pics:

Clearly showing the spiral phyllotaxy in the top half. It's 2 feet tall, in 5liter container. Great node spacing.

The pollination of the IH plant with CH pollen worked great, if this IH plant doesn't hermie (like one of her sisters due to probably a huge light leak next to her) I will probably grow the seeds of those too early next year. Maybe keep a few for outdoors. It's fast 'n vigorous and frosty and unlike the ICE parent and her two sisters it smells pretty sweet. Floral/fruity sweet. That and the narrow leaflets, it's a late whorler (the CH male an early-ish), high yielder. Looks like it will fill up nicely and suitable for both sog and topping. Only thing that can mess this female up is nanners...

Half a gallon bottle with perlite. Works but not ideal. Would work better with a drip system or automatic watering.

CHxCH seedling trying to catch rain ;)

Og Gong · Nov 12, 2015

Sativied said:
AW5 clone, apart from some minor clawing it's still doing great. Damn shame it hermies. The AW5 bud tastes more like amnesia than the strong smelling frosty-but leafy AW4, also the fastest, and best bud structure. One of the things that make Original Haze special is that it's not very likely to herm despite the Thai in it. In the description of AW they mentioned they crossed the (Haze x Afghani) with Thai:
"To ensure that none of the uplifting high is lost, Amnesia White [(Haze x Afghani, I think SSH x afghani)] has also been back-crossed with the Thai ancestors that give Haze most of its awesome power."

... I get the impression they also crossed thai's hermie sensitivity back in... They should have used Original Haze instead. I wanted to cross the amnesia cut with afghani till I found AW. Maybe I should still do that and cross the result back to amnesia or use O Haze. Either way, the three-way cross AW of (Haze x Afghani) x Thai turned out to be as stable as I expected, not stable at all. I still think their could be great plants in the AW x AW I created, maybe some day when it will be easier to lab test for hermies.

I always recommend people to ditch hermies and certainly not clone them and run them again but I'm happy with her-him... and curious if she will herm as badly and as soon. Anyway, pics:

View attachment 549326
Clearly showing the spiral phyllotaxy in the top half. It's 2 feet tall, in 5liter container. Great node spacing.

View attachment 549325

View attachment 549327

The pollination of the IH plant with CH pollen worked great, if this IH plant doesn't hermie (like one of her sisters due to probably a huge light leak next to her) I will probably grow the seeds of those too early next year. Maybe keep a few for outdoors. It's fast 'n vigorous and frosty and unlike the ICE parent and her two sisters it smells pretty sweet. Floral/fruity sweet. That and the narrow leaflets, it's a late whorler (the CH male an early-ish), high yielder. Looks like it will fill up nicely and suitable for both sog and topping. Only thing that can mess this female up is nanners...

View attachment 549340
Half a gallon bottle with perlite. Works but not ideal. Would work better with a drip system or automatic watering.
View attachment 549341

View attachment 549339

CHxCH seedling trying to catch rain ;)
View attachment 549345

Very nice.

cocoJoe · Nov 12, 2015

cocoJoe said:
I found DJ's book.. He states:
"Backwards" hermaphrodites are declared males that eventually sport female flowers (as opposed to the usual female-to-male hermaphrodites). These are rare occurrences, usually sterile but sometimes viable, that I found to be genetically valuable. many resinous and desirable males exhibit this trait, which almost guarantees against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsequent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny.

Thanks DJ.. Not how I remember it but how it reads..

cocoJoe said:

Hi Sativied,, I can see you know cannabis breeding.. Much respect..

I just had another male do this for me.. The male is related to the 11 original seeds..
It is a (Danny Boy x Chocolate Chunk) x Exile.. I will collect pollen from it and do some checking..
Thanx for the reply..
Best 'o luck always,,
ccJ

Click to expand...

Appears like my male isn't dropping pollen..

Peace

Sativied · Nov 12, 2015

Og Gong said:
Very nice.

Thanks, also for posting those timers in your thread. I've been looking for affordable cycle timers that support seconds for a long time when I first build my hydro setup. I can't get the same ones, need european plug and 240v, but found one on amazon when I looked up yours. Going to give it a try, also for automatic watering:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008KVV546

@cocoJoe sorry to hear that Joe. Have you checked one of the anthers? I had a reverted female once that created paste instead of powder. Turned out to be sterile or mostly anyway, got one seed from it.

Sativied · Nov 15, 2015

I've been smoking some proper dried Amnesia White for a few days now and I feel rich.... never had so much 'amnesia', usually pay $14-15 per measly gram. Considering I had to take one down early, threw away the fattest parts that were rotted, cut away some hermied parts, they clearly have a huge yield potential. If they didn't hermie so badly I probably would have bought a couple of packs more.

Sativied said:
Only thing that can mess this female up is nanners...

No, quite a few other options... like major fox tailing.
Perhaps not very clear on the pic but the bud structure is more like haze than the IH1 and IH5, the other two females I flowered from this cross, which were clearly fat indica nugs. This cross is confusing. It's so sativa dom for an ICE (Afghan, Skunk#1 and Northern Light) cross, especially since the Cannalope Haze parent is not as sativa as the name might imply. She's quite frosty, especially when you lift up her skirt:

Pollinated with CH tri pollen and also pollinated a flower with AW pollen. The latter came from the freezer and barely worked. The CH pollinated flower is small too but packed with seeds. Those will be (ICE x CH-quad) x (CH x CH-quad), tri x tri.

Sativied · Nov 16, 2015

The P-F1 transplanted from hydro to soil:

The two in front had the largest root mass and are still not 100% over the transplant. The largest one, in the front, is still slowly fading the oldest leaves. Dug it up and it showed it barely created new roots. Potted up in better soil and got roots poking out the bottom within days so hopefully she'll be ok. Topping worked out nicely. I really like how compact they are, short nodes too, the two I didn't top and suspected would be male are female... got 5 females, 1 male... As in the first P-F1 run, they grow more like the short CH parent in the F1, the F2 contains stretchers like the chunk parent again (and wide leaflets and thick hollow stems which all seem related/linked).

Probably going to make a new P-F2, and also pollinate some with a CHxCH male. The goal with this cross was to get something like the CH with the taste, yield, and bud structure of the chunk. The P-F3 all however have a little too much of chunk. Like stretch, fat/wide leaves/leaflets, and the hairiness.

This one is not topped, terminal in the back.

Sativied · Nov 16, 2015

Almost trashed this one because I ran out of 0.5L pots and it wasn't one of the fastest and prettiest of the bunch.

Second set of leaves already has one at a golden angle. I.e. the trifoliate leaf on the right is already slightly rotated. The entire third set (leaves with 5 leaflets) is rotated. The newest leaves are four different leaves, in the fourth set one is pointing at roughly 12 o clock, the other to roughly 8, seemingly growing towards a golden angle again. The 5th set however appears to be straight again. Not the prettiest of the bunch but curious to see how it will turn out.

Had a few of these before, each pair of leaflets growing below the larger pair, with eventually the middle finger/leaflet being below the rest, in this case it has a lizard tongue too:

And the still pale one, slightly greening up.

It looks so much like the pale one from the IH batch that I can't help wondering again if I mixed up some with IH (ICE x CH) seeds in the CHxCH seeds. I thought that before when the CHxCH turned out to be so indica or skunk like, so ICE like, instead of like the CH parents. I did use two CH females, one haze dom structure and one compact. I eventually dismissed it as CH is probably a C99 cross which could explain some of the things I noticed in the F2 as well.

That IH plant in posts above turning out so sativa dom looking doesn't help to clear the doubt. I can smell, taste, and see the difference between the two crosses more obviously later on but since they are both based on the same CH male (the quad) there's obviously overlap as well. Plus ICE x CH and CH x CH have a similar lineage (NL, afghani, skunk, haze).

geologic · Nov 17, 2015

Sativied said:
in this case it has a lizard tongue too:

> LIZARD TONGUE!!!
< I've never heard that before;
but spotted it as soon as I read that,
very appropriate--
I used to keep Monitor Lizards...

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Sativied said:
No, quite a few other options... like major fox tailing.

Beside this "bag appeal" I've read about for the last ~3 years,
what's the downside to "foxtails";
same things those folks in Thailand wrap around their sticks,
and who came up with that name???:
they don't look anything like foxtails--
Colas = Colas de Zorras (Tails Of The Fox ) look like foxtails...

Sativied · Nov 17, 2015

geologic said:
Beside this "bag appeal" I've read about for the last ~3 years,
what's the downside to "foxtails";

What people call foxtailing is often just a typical haze or sativa bud structure. I associate it with haze, others who grow landraces and sativas will probably consider it a sativa trait. That structure actually has a higher bag appeal for me (and I think many people here in NL since amnesia) than round indica/kush nuggets.

There are a couple of downsides to foxtailing though. One is that it decreases the trimmability (?) of the bud. Many commercial growers who need to trim a lot, or even use a machine to do so, prefer round nuggets. Personally I don't mind that either, it tends to have a high calyx to leaf ratio so there's less to trim. Besides that, I much rather spend hours on trimming sativa bud than indica nugs considering I smoke it all myself :)

A potential problem is foxtailing at the end, beyond the regular flower time, on top of the regular bud, regardless of it's structure. That is what foxtailing to my knowledge used to mean exclusively. While the main bud is finished and degrading (turning amber) the foxtails contain new clear/cloudy trichs and just keep on stacking new calyxes and pistils on top of it, giving the impression it's not finished yet while the main bud is done (and in my case depending on season increases risk of rot). I've often recommended to harvest and dry the foxtails separately in such a scenario.

I'm actually kind of excited to see that structure in the IH plant as so far the CH crosses lacked 'haze' but, the problem is that it occurs so soon that I suspect it will foxtail badly at the end too. I'll take a fresh pic of her tonight, it's already more obvious.

The classics at sensi show it nicely:

Master Kush, no foxtailing

Skunk#1, not really foxtailing but showing the potential to do so:

Super Skunk, foxtail-ish structure...

Silver Haze. Many would call this foxtailed. Two of those tails dried in a zip, that has the highest bag appeal IMO. No leaf in the bag, just calyx as compact as it gets. Crumbles nicely... reminds me of when I started smoking cannabis and was picking the calyxes from the thai or 'purple' (dutch outdoor strain)... part of the ritual of rolling one.

X-Haze, clearly showing what I call haze bud structure but is common in landraces and sativas too. This one actually shows nicely yet exaggerated how the IH bud is forming too.

Now, if you add one of those parts from the last two pics on top of the bud on the one of the first two pics, you got foxtails. Or when it's on top (or sides...) of the buds in the last two pics and only those still stack pistils/calyxes with fresh stigmas.

The goal with P was to get the combination of all the above, without the foxtails at the end. This P-F1 plant came close enough, the part on the right is the foxtail but not an issue.

Which is from the hazy pheno in the CH, which imo has the perfect bud structure, but did foxtail slightly (bottom left where it's widest), just not in a problematic way

It's when a bud branches out... buds out... I do agree foxtail isn't very fitting...

Sativied · Nov 17, 2015

Forgot to mention the main point... It's often genetics and not actually a bad thing. That does happen too though, heat and nutes can cause it too. H&G Shooting Powder on a haze variety will often do it too...

@NFT would you mind posting a pic of the those beautiful colas of which the bud itself were side ways and the foxtails growing towards the light? Great if not best example of what's not really foxtailing but genetics.

Sativied · Nov 17, 2015

I just got new nutrients for soil by the way. Atami B'cuzz A&B. I looked up some experiences with the biobizz fish-mix I got and it's an additive... a soil conditioner, and while supposedly complete it's not a replacement for 'grow' nutes. Disappointing, I've done a soil grow once with mostly just fish emulsion (from that same old organic veggie farmer shop) during veg and remember green lush leaves while this fish mix smells the same it seems quite useless as nutrients itself. Anyway, I've been messing around too much with different nutes and soil and need to keep it simple again. Hence the AB nutes.

Sativied · Nov 18, 2015

It's a quad (from CHxCH). After three nodes, earliest quad I had including the one I used initially.

I just counted my plants, got 50 of them... Little over 40 are CHxCH. Not sure yet how many I will flower, probably somewhere between 16-32.

NFT · Nov 18, 2015

Sativied said:
Forgot to mention the main point... It's often genetics and not actually a bad thing. That does happen too though, heat and nutes can cause it too. H&G Shooting Powder on a haze variety will often do it too...

@NFT would you mind posting a pic of the those beautiful colas of which the bud itself were side ways and the foxtails growing towards the light? Great if not best example of what's not really foxtailing but genetics.

i think you mean this one, it was all foxtails , a mango haze cross (angel heart)

peace

Sativied · Nov 18, 2015

Yeah that's the one. Awesome. Thanks for posting.

NFT · Nov 19, 2015

Sativied said:
Yeah that's the one. Awesome. Thanks for posting.

i find a fair few hybrids will do a little bit of foxtailing if you let them go 9-10 weeks instead of 8 weeks,
they only foxtail at the top of the colas right at the end of the grow and would otherwise not have a stacking type of bud formation

peace

NFT · Nov 19, 2015

Sativied said:
It's when a bud branches out... buds out... I do agree foxtail isn't very fitting...

i like the structure of this one, ^^ the high calyx to leaf ratio is very desirable imo looks sexy

i always remember those jack herer pics when they first came out she looked odd but those sexy large calyx did it for me

jack herer sensi

ak47 also has the potential to stack/ foxtail

peace

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

FlyinJStable

geologic

Old Pharmer

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

Og Gong

Rip Geologic

cocoJoe

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

geologic

Old Pharmer

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

NFT

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Ruler of the Whorled

NFT

NFT

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

FlyinJStable

geologic

Old Pharmer

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

Og Gong

Rip Geologic

cocoJoe

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

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Ruler of the Whorled

geologic

Old Pharmer

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NFT

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Ruler of the Whorled

NFT

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