Breeding for whorls

Sativied · Dec 18, 2015

One of the branches of the tall sativa-dom:

One of my favorite, worried it will hermie even though apart from bud I got nothing to lose - not making seeds with these, not voluntarily anyway.

This one I like a lot too, more frizzling pistils, less worried about this one as it clearly leans towards the CH parent.

One of the tris:

Checked this one with scope, no nanners, but some weird looking growth I don't like

^"Naked pistil" as I called it earlier in this thread, with pics and old drawings. The one in the center of the pic, looking like an immature seed with pistils popping through it. That's a pistil without the bract. Trait (harmless yet useless and bracts have the highest concentration of trichs) from the ICE, definitely IH.

Tri whorled but alternating, best internode space.

Sativied · Dec 21, 2015

All 13 CHxCH seeds popped, all at same stage, starting on 2nd leaves set. Based on 1 quad male x an initially more indica dom looking female and same male x a sativa/haze dom female, so some variation is expected, but if these just look anything like the ICE I'm going to trash both the IH and the CH bags. Well, I'll keep a few for the future, some day lab test for hermies perhaps.

Did notice the cotyledons are not as dark purple as the IH, another sign I missed. The ICE and a couple of its offspring in IH had leaves of which the edges curled up without an obvious reason often combined with long petioles. On cuttings the leaves folded up very quickly if not kept in water or without a dome. Matter of minutes. Mimosa pudica in slowmotion. Anyway, even with only 13 I should be able to tell if one or more have ICE genes.

Sativied · Dec 21, 2015

Fan near bottom:

Fan near top:

Another one that became very sativa dom looking

^non-alternating tri, more node distance, more buds packed together...more chance of rot too.

Some are clearly more developing like the CH, but most like ICE.

Despite the lack of frost (though the eventual trimmed bud is very frosty) some look so good I would pollinate them but I don't trust the males either.

Just measured drain from 4 pots, ranged from 450-1000ppm, roughly 1 - 2ec so quite a bit of variation. Going to water only for a while cause I don't feel like measuring 15 pots. As soon as the CHxCH seedlings are big enough I'm going to push them all to the side.

Sativied · Dec 22, 2015

Seedlings of what should be CHxCH look good so far

FlyinJStable · Dec 22, 2015

Merry HoHo @Sativied Been super busy working on My own little place to call a Garden
where I can grow somthin a little taller than 3 feet.. lol
Girls are looking Seller as always and its great to see the Horseshoe NFT flowin with Frosty ladies.
So I was able to get My Nyvia II to seed well this last run it is a Cookies cross so That Makes it
Officially my 1st deliberate cross that is in the flower room...... Cant wait lol

I just wanted to swing by and hope you have a Out Standing HolliDaze Daze
Super Peace on earth Vibes
FlyJ

Sativied · Dec 22, 2015

Hey FlyJ, sounds good man, more space is always welcome.

And good to hear it worked out better this run, I look forward to seeing some plants from the cross in your new garden.

FlyinJStable said:
Girls are looking Seller as always and its great to see the Horseshoe NFT flowin...

Apart from 2 of 3 plants they do look almost as good as on NFT even if I say so myself, but, currently still running all on soil. Will probably be more obvious in a few weeks :)

Sativied · Dec 23, 2015

Last one is from the P-F1 (hydro to soil transplant), had a harder timer adjusting to 600w than soil, probably not rooted well. Anyway, from this one it is at least obvious it's a CH cross. Seeded so should get some new F2 from these.

Sativied · Dec 25, 2015

Got a white christmas despite global warming... still not a lot of frost on the leaves but the calyxes already have a dense layer of ice...

Sativied · Dec 26, 2015

I hate to say it but the 13 seedlings I got going now appear to be IH...

Sativied said:
The ICE and a couple of its offspring in IH had leaves of which the edges curled up without an obvious reason often combined with long petioles. On cuttings the leaves folded up very quickly if not kept in water or without a dome. Matter of minutes. Mimosa pudica in slowmotion.

Not very clear on the pics, IRL in 3D it's a lot easier to see these appear to have ICE leaves. Besides the leaflet shape:

It has the mimosa effect...

and the for ice typical purple petioles... and sometimes the main vein too.

^Folds starting at the base of the leaflet, then edges of leaflets curl up.

Very frosty though:

Should be more obvious soon, can't be certain yet, but I'm starting to suspect the ICE hermied in the initial seed run. It would explain why the indica dom in the CHxCH bag hermies and the sativa dom doesn't. If that's the case it's going to be hard to find a male that is CHxCH instead of a CH-dominant CHxICE. It doesn't really matter anymore cause I want to move away from the CH. I'm going to keep looking for good CHxCH females whorlers but only to cross into something better...

...as a little side project because I'm going to do something different. Should have a bunch of new seeds soon, including O Haze.

Santa gave me a usb microscope 200x... pics soon.

Growin Grass · Dec 26, 2015

Hope you had a nice frost filled xmas

Sativied · Dec 28, 2015

Thanks man, likewise.

As a matter of fact, my plants did frost up significantly over Christmas.

Ice pheno:

nother ice pheno:

CH pheno:

And the super sativa, clone's doing great too. Not very clear on this pic but getting frosty, even on the fans higher up, and I think it will yield well too, still ahead of the rest.

P-F1 looks better though, smells better too:

Sativied · Dec 30, 2015

Got a table top mountain bud cola...

Tri. Bud structure less indica pom poms, but appears to be leafy. Currently behind in bud size compared to most of the others but may make up for that by flowering longer.

Nother tri, similar bud seems slightly less leafy

I like the shape of this one:

Sativied · Jan 2, 2016

First tri of the year, including golden angle:

Roughly a quarter inch per node

Sativied · Jan 2, 2016

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.”

― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Quoted the second part about being misunderstood and great for completeness :) What a great quote. And with that said, I'm going do things a little differently this year.

Specifically, I'm going to create more feminized seeds. As much as I prefer to use males, it's limiting my already limited space. Not just the plant count, but I would need a larger veg space than flower space fill the latter as I'd like to. It's currently costing me too much yield, making it an expensive hobby. By using females only I can select from more females and plan and crop a proper canopy.

Additionally, not having to remove males (but instead just the reversed branches or reverse clones) allows me to switch back to nft. I will do one more soil run with a lot more perlite just to get it out of my system and use up some nutes, but after that it's back to nft and probably some hempy buckets/bottles. Maybe some coco for clones.

I will continue to grow some whorlers on the side, looking for the best to cross the wp trait into something else, but it'll be a side project as I'm going to start a new project that will include O Haze (possible crossed with OT haze first) and a stable (non sensi classic) hybrid with high bud rot (botrytis) and powdery mildew resistance, with an emphasis on the former.

Sativied · Jan 4, 2016

Just hooked up the usb microscope, little disappointed with the results but it was a gift so...

Adaxial surface of one of the new plants (couple of weeks old)

Abaxial surface:

I can do the first one better with my photo camera but the second has slightly more detail.

geologic · Jan 4, 2016

A lot better than my usb scope...

[note: I "miss-typed usb to usp,
which I thought was quite appropriate--
(as in united states pharmaceutical)...]

FlyinJStable · Jan 5, 2016

Hey @Sativied
Happy Daze and Great grows Bro,
Looks like you have been Rocking as always.... I have been so tied up with a few new Veterans learning to get there grow on I berly have time to sleep, But its a Blast to help others Ya know....
Always dig swingin by and sayin Hi.
Keep your Film clean and your Ladies Happy Bro
FlyJ

Sativied · Jan 5, 2016

5 out of 13 of the CHxCH suspects in veg are tri-whorled. 5 so far that is. Or 6 out 14 including the one in the hempy bottle.

Not getting too excited yet until I see CH buds forming on these but with half or more whorled I will obviously have to pop a load of these and sort of get it over with. I've said from the start that ideally I end up with 100% whorlers but will be happy enough if most whorl. Turns out that isn't even really the challenge and isn't the most important thing either. Like breeding purple or a taste, terpene, or cannabinoid into a variety, what matters more is how much the trait expresses in a plant. If the trait is the Force, than what matters is how strong the Force is in a plant. Expressing whorled phyllotaxy alone isn't enough.

The best whorler is a tri (because of the lack of overlap per 6 leaves), whorls early as possible (allowing early topping and cropping), on all its branches, and matures fast. That last part is essential. Specifally it has to alternate to really benefit from the whorling during veg. Breeding for spirals... Whorled spreads out the branches and leaves better for veg, spiral (alternating whorled is effectively spiral) spreads out the buds along the stem.

Long story short, if half of more are whorled already, I should be able to find very suitable whorlers as well as great plants otherwise.

Time for some "background" music:

They are too pretty to be based on the ICE so unless proven differently later on it's CHxCH.

Getting narrow leaflets fast.

Going to top them all, will be interesting to see if and how many remaining branches will whorl. Some have tri branches already, at least one has a quad.

geologic · Jan 6, 2016

Sativied said:
Breeding for spirals...

No tricots or quadcots yet???

Sativied · Jan 6, 2016

All dicots. I'd be surprised if I find one without crossing new genetics in it first.

While it would start off the whorling as early as possible, it is a different trait. It is called pleiocotyly. (More definitions ;) )

"More generally, the production of an abnormal number of cotyledons has been referred to as pleiocotyly. Early research on pleiocotyly was focused on the potential use of abnormal cotyledons as a genetic marker and other uses in crop breeding (Haskell, 1961; Rajora & Zsuffa, 1986). Several previous experiments have examined the genetic basis of pleiocotyly (Holthorp, 1944; Haskell, 1949, 1962; Harrison, 1964; Dessureaux, 1967; Rajora & Zsuffa, 1986). "

"The occurence of other than two cotyledons [in dicots]...."

Breeding for whorls

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