Great info @Sativied. Very interesting.

You mentioned your interested in pck from ace. Have you ever emailed them? They are incredibly friendly and intelligent, and would probably be happy to hear about your project and help you best find which pck(or another one) would be best to help you reach your goal. I emailed them one time asking a simple question and the guy ended up giving me tons of info and helping me realize which one I really wanted. Anyways, may be worth your time.

Good luck on Project Wine Balls, as usual I'm tuned in

Artist's impression :D

That kinda started out as a joke, but I do have a few Panama Red fem too. Crossing the pink pistils genes into a red variety should produce pink pistils, as it's from the same influences.

For completeness, the ph indicator image from wiki:

There are other pigments that can play a role, but when red/purple/blue, you can gauge the ph of the inside of the plant, more specifically, the "intracellular ph".

I still have a lot of research to go through, but the link between citrus varieties in 'red' could be simply because the citric acid lowers the ph far enough to 'red' values. Normally the plant regulates it, but probably still, as with most things 'genetic', influenced by external triggers.

The reason I got those Panamas is not specifically the pink pistils though, would be a nice bonus in the end but optional. I got a few because they supposedly produce either high citrus/lemon taste or strawberry. I.e. I may be able to get the taste from it. Since I will be running several hazes to cross the red into, I think there's a good chance I may run into the the opportunity to create a lemon haze on the side.

hiiipower said:

You mentioned your interested in pck from ace. Have you ever emailed them? They are incredibly friendly

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Friendly and fast :) I already have the PCK from Ace. I went through the lineage of some other red varieties and while they don't all mentioned PCK, they often mention hindu kush from pakistan areas, i.e. the same thing. They use it (there's only one, a pure line, don't want to use a PCK cross) themselves too to source color for other crosses and is kind of the obvious choice (like afghani #1 for purple).

Read somewhere (icmag or fb) it's not that hard to find red in PCK but deliberately starting with just ten cause I got a few other colorful varieties so I can compare environmental influences. Still will be cold-ish at night next run. If it turns out the red is not very common I will simply get more. I want as little as possible from the PCK in the Wine Balls and the red genes donor doesn't have to be an elite otherwise. Obviously would be nice and possibly reduce the amount of work but one of the main haze parent candidates is silver haze, which is based on Afghanica already.

But not a bad idea at all to simply contact them, I will definitely do that at some point. I think it can be more fruitful if I do some more research and a few test crosses first.

Was just going through the folder they included with the seeds and the breeder's pack for PCK contains 10 old purple, 10 new purple, 10 red/pink. So yeah, I definitely see what you mean now Hiipower, they do have separate/ multiple pck phenos in the breeder pack. I will still get it if necessary, the standard supposedly can include red according to the description. They mention explicitly on the site they don't sell the packs in the breeders packs separately, probably because many have asked already. That's fine though, especially if it's a decent smoke by itself, and I could use the purple ones for some guerrilla grow as I think it could do well in our climate.

I know you always do your homework. But yeah ace is I think the one company on earth that breeds like that, at least to the extent that they do it. I know a lot of breeders use multiple females, but they do it to a pretty large extent. For example I know they find killer females from their feminized lines and then incorporate that special female into the existing breeding program for that variety(Breeders packs). Super interesting to see the slightly different combos that come out of it.

I'd be surprised if you didn't find a red one in the standard.

Thanks man, I'm excited to see what will come out of these seeds.
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I just killed some beautiful plants I had in veg, soil and dwc plants. Both the CHxCH and the ICExCH contain ICExCH. I don't know if the ICE hermied in the first seed run or I somehow simply mixed ICExCH seeds in the CHxCH bag. In case of the first I should have had a higher female to male ratio. Spread over both bags I found 3 that are like the CH, the rest is all ice dom and whatever dna used as parent. I give up trying to find out which is which and what exactly happened. Plenty of whorlers in both bags so may just have to pop some of both when I eventually look for a good whorler to cross into wine balls.

The main downside is really that I will be smoking the ice cross even longer. It's not horrible after curing, but it's a real boring stoner weed... The PCK needs only 7-8 weeks indoors, which isn't going to satisfy my haze needs either so I need to plant some haze too. Probably won't directly make seeds but clone everything. For the haze I'm going to use Silver Haze from sensi. It's like NL#5/haze but based on a different Afghani dom Northern Lights and shorter flowering. At least that is what I make of the vague decsriptions. I smoke it regularly, somewhat comparable to amnesia and ssh but less perfumed. Although the silver haze is haze dom, I'm going to plant a couple of O haze on the side too.

Took a little longer than expected but I have 10 PCK mini seedlings. A germination rate of 83%.... cause there were 12 seeds in the 10- pack. :happy:2 kept floating after soaking a night so I figured I'd end up with 10 again.

Smallest cotyledons I've ever seen, while the seeds are average size. I opened one of the duds after 5 days and while there was healthy white embryo in there, the green seed husk was unusual thick and wrinkeled.

I decided to grow these pck in soil first, they only need 7-8weeks and I still have some soil nutes I want to use instead of throw away. Rest (panama and hazes) is going in hempy after a short preveg period in dwc.

Not going to make an effort in timing the flower period between the indicas and the sativas so I can pollinate the first run, going to do that with the best clones. If I happen to find a red pck male I will try harder to store pollen for longer use though.

Went to Amsterdam yesterday...

Sativied said:

Smells like bird shit, little taste and smell, but noticeable good effect, high+relax.

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Got some Neville haze again, wanted to double check, different shop (kadinsky). Same structure, same smell (bird shit), but again good effect. It's like a blank haze, nothing special/exciting.

Got some lemon haze from 2e kamer, good enough but not great. Some "skunk x lemon" from Solo, no good, no lemon, fluffy. And some trans himalayan hash (kadinsky) which is really nice. Soft smoke, relaxing.

And of course Silver Haze seeds (sensi). Waiting on some ace panama to pop before I plant those.

Not entirely happy with the ace seeds so far. 2-3 of the 10 PCK are weird, 1 looks like it won't even grow the first set of leaves. Another one:


A normal one:


One of the Panamas I'm trying to pop still hasn't opened after three days (1 night soak, 2.5 days in rockwool) and have a few others that are starting to worry me.

I hope the sensi seeds work better than their white label amnesia white. :)

I can send you a PM if you like that may clear up some questions you have with coloration of pigments in these plants.

If your looking for red; That is the glycosylated anthocyanin Malvidin. Or Oenin.
Further reaction (stabilization) forms the more common acetyl glucoside we see, that is purple.
Intracellular pH does play a role in glycosylation or acylation; but is more related to stabilization of those states.

I would presume to only show red that you may want to look for specimens without the synthesis pathways for acylation. A plant that lacks gycosylation pathways remains with clear flavonoids (normal green plant).

Keep up the good work! I've enjoyed watching.

Thanks for the info MGRox, much appreciated. Love how some informed terminology can open a can of new resources and info. I look forward to going through your pm.

Slowly but steadily... the PCK are cute:


Definitely not the prettiest seedlings I had but I guess that's to be expected when using more raw materials sort of speak. Got 9 seedlings, but two are freaks, some sort of variegation going on. Keeping them just cause I'm curious to see if they will grow out of it.

So far 5 of the 10 silver haze are seedlings, hoping for 2-3 more to come up. 2 are duds. Most are clearly weaker than my own again.

Unfortunately one of the 5 has only 1 first true leaf. All reg seed so worst case scenario is pretty bad. Best case would still be 50/50 from 8...

Got another purple one that is normal.

Hey Sativied!

It's been a minute since I last checked your thread and I see you started mixing some of your own colors. I always admired your work. If it wasn't for this thread I would have newer known what a whorled phillotaxy is. So now that I do, I have a little gem to share that I came across with the ongoing run. Never seen one with my own eyes. Too bad it's an autoflower



Didn't see many of these myself if at all and like I said first one with my own eyes


Keep up the great work!

Toaster79 said:

Hey Sativied!

It's been a minute since I last checked your thread and I see you started mixing some of your own colors. I always admired your work. If it wasn't for this thread I would have newer known what a whorled phillotaxy is. So now that I do, I have a little gem to share that I came across with the ongoing run. Never seen one with my own eyes. Too bad it's an autoflower

View attachment 579658

Didn't see many of these myself if at all and like I said first one with my own eyes


Keep up the great work!

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Nice find bro!

@Toaster79: thanks for the kind words :)

Beautiful polycotyledon (more than 2 cots) you got there, which will basically express whorled phyllotaxy from the first node as an inevitable result.

I'm very interested to see if it sort of grows out whorled phyllotaxy and reverts to regular (some tricots do) and/or whether it produces branches that express whorled phyllotaxy too.

Yeah, can't clone it because it's an auto. Could pollinate it with a photo though. Could be a very special plant depending on what caused the polycotyledon (fluke during development, mutant with inheritable tricot genes, or, though chances are slim, could even be a proper polyploid).

I'm definitely keeping a close eye on this one and I'll keep you informed about it. Was hoping you could tell me a little bit more about polyploids since you already did all the research.

And I also have pollen from a real nice stud I grew in my previous run so I will dust a branch or two. You are also welcome to have some of those seeds if you're interested. I'm not sure yet which strain exactly it is. It is either Blue Kush Auto or Cheese XXL Auto, but they're both from Dinafem.

Since all the triwhorlers I came across in my garden were from Dinafem and also had some runts I'm thinking it's a mutation from feminising process the breeder uses. I'm sure you're could have an explanation as I doubt it's a real polyploid.

Polyploids typically express whorled phyllotaxy, but plants with whorled phyllotaxy are usually not polyploids. Polyploidy is a rare occurance (unless induced) where the plant has more than the regular two sets of chromosomes. This can have additive effects even in cannabinoid contents. It think that theory made it more attractive than it perhaps is. They can be hard to reproduce, sterile even, and polyploid simply doesn't always equate to "better" in many plant species. It would certainly be interesting.

My whorlers start to whorl usually after the 4th node (some late whorlers much later) seemingly around the time it produces enough auxins to establish apical dominance. Topping them before they whorl, removing the main source of auxin production, the apex, causes the branches to become dominant terminals, producing auxins, and express wp. Point is, the whorled phyllotaxy trait in my whorlers is caused by auxin related or affected genes.

Your plant is a polycot. 3 cots, so it's a tricot. Because of the socalled Hofmeister rule (for more details and pics search this thread for hofmeister), a tricot will always become a tri whorler. Simply put, looking from above, a new leaf will be created in between two leaves of the previous set, so successive nodes don't overlap, giving you 6 non-overlapping leaves instead of the regular 4. Point is, they don't need the wp genes my plants have to become whorled.

They may need them to stay whorled. Or mine may need polycot genes to start whorling sooner.

DMT, a breeder who worked on his polycot (tri and tetra) variety BruisedNuts for years. One of his efforts was selecting plants that express wp throughout the entire plant. So appearantly whorled phyllotaxy as a result from being a polycot does not necessarily restrict wp to just the main stem.

Great info in this doc:
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/1915/9/09_chapter2.pdf
Last page list several mutants. In arabidopsis mutant pinoid a protein is created that negativelly regulates auxin signals resulting in polycots.

With an auto whorler it is even more important that it starts whorling asap, and no whorler starts whorling faster than a polycot.

So there are three (at least, surely more actually) genetic reasons that can make a plant express whorled phyllotay.
- wp genes
- polycot genes
- entire set(s) of extra chromosomes with genes

The first two could both be very similar auxin regulation affecting genes.

I don't think every polycot is genetically a polycot though, i.e. does not necessarily have different genes than a regular sibling that can be inherited.

Take a look at the development of a dicot embryo:
E.g.

Something could have gone wrong during the heartshape stage. There are thousands of genes that affect embryogenesis, which in turn can be heavily influenced by external factors. That would mean they are often flukes of nature and would partly explain why they are uncommon. If it often was an inheritable trait I think it would have been more common.

Toaster79 said:

Since all the triwhorlers I came across in my garden were from Dinafem and also had some runts I'm thinking it's a mutation from feminising process the breeder uses. I'm sure you're could have an explanation as I doubt it's a real polyploid.

Click to expand...

I think it's unlikely a result of feminising, but... there are too many unknowns to exclude it from being a possibility. Treating it with silver sort of masks part of the dna code, reducing female flower hormone production. That same part needs to be read when creating the gametes for reproduction. With my limited knowledge I could hypothesize feminising does result in dna alterations in the seed, including increasing the tendency to produce hermies. If that is true, I would recommend using the pollen produced long after the treatment. As you can read in the doc I linked to above, there are "hormone mutants". So, plenty of correlation, but to my limited knowledge no proven causation.

Older post on the subject with some more research: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/breeding-for-whorls.63887/page-37#post-1596236

Thanks for the excellent explanation, although I think you have already explained it all in this thread, maybe several times. But thanks again for your time and effort. I've got tons of reading to do although im not likely to get into breeding.

But like I said before, I will make some seeds with this girl and you're welcome to have some. If nothing else, they'll grow some nice smoke.

Keep it green!

Man I love this thread, please keep up the exploration.

that's awesome. I just popped a tricot. and remembered right where to look. thanks @Sativied for all your hard work and research! (pic in Tnelz thread)

I think I need to replace my T8 bulbs, it's been a while and it's clearly going slower lately with all sorts of seedlings. I put the PCK under 400w mh and they finally seem to be taking off.


Lizard tongue on the right^^




I love seeing very slender sativa leaves but it's nice to see the wide 'and' short leaflets for a change. They remind me of strawberry leaves.


Got only 7 though. And 1 panama (out of 3). Not off to a good start but will clone them all and see if one has anything useful to offer. PCK is reg, so obviously won't have enough plants and will get more seeds but still hope for some color in these and getting to know the strain a little.