Breeding for whorls

[Og Gong]

Sorry meant to hit upload and I hit post lol View attachment 528044

That is the Jack Herer X Strawberry Cough plant. It's been my go to daytime smoke for a few months now. Very tasty sweet makes my mind clear, alert and focus. Good for creativity.

 

[Sativied]

Sounds like we have a very similar taste in 'daytime smoke'. The goal with "Late Night" was to create something similar for those late creative nights.


Working on setting up that second 400w closet based on scrap wood and whatever I have lying around the house. Was checking on the CH F3 seedlings and noticed many of the 'fattest' F2 mom have sativa dom leaves, while the offspring of the 'fastest' F2 mom starts out more indica like.

Top is from fastest, bottom from fattest.

One of the things I didn't like about the F2 is that it appeared to be all indica dom /hybrid and it seemed I bred the haze mostly out the Cannalope Haze. The F3 from the fattest mom (like fastest an early tri whorled) give me hope of more slender leaflets throughout the cycle as well as more sativa dom bud... maybe some hazy undertone.

 

[Sativied]

I'll post some pics later... Just checked the sex of what are probably the best plants I've grown, the P-F3 line 19, and 6 out of 9 are male... Was hoping for at least 4 or 5. There is very little variation between the males, so the upside is that I can probably use multiple males. Only a couple of days on 12/12 so going to wait to see which stretch the least.

1 of the females doesn't look optimal structure wise but the others are very similar to each other and the males; short and bushy. I ran two of the line 19 before as well as two sister lines so I have a pretty good idea of what to expect and hopefully will find it in the right combination.

Found a couple of males in the 6 CH F3, rest no preflower yet. More stativa dom leaves than in the previous generation. They are just fillers, still entirely perfect regular opposite phyllotaxy.

The 8 Amnesia White are difficult plants. Currently back in the 400w closet under mh as they have a hard time recovering from topping.

In that new 3x3' 400w closet I also have 36 of the CH F2 and F3, in which I will hopefull find some whorlers. Also got 6 clones of the AW in there.

 

[FlyinJStable]

Hey Sat Man
Yes I agree your F3's and the #19 Rocked big time You setting the horse shoe Hydro again ? or stayin in soil now?
diggin the runs I just missed the exploding Runs in the tubes, Maks it hard to swap out plants I know LoL

So yea Didnt do so well with the 1st seed fun

I ended up with 5 very strong very healthy looking seeds out of the whole plant. Thats not good or fair to the Hunt is it?
How will I know if I find the Keep keeper, IDK Out of the 5 if I get One that looks like Nyvia II and Strong like girl=Scouts so be it... I will say the seeds to look Nice. strong and they are big.. 4 have a slight ridge and one is dang neer perfect football. No matter what Its My very 1st..
I couldn't have done it without Your Knowledgeable thread and Times you share.
You rock Bro will be popin on the full moon.
Keep doin that Super whorlteeee three tree Green Vibes Runnin Bro
Peace FlyJ

 

[Sativied]

You setting the horse shoe Hydro again ? or stayin in soil now?

Sticking with soil for a while longer. Trying out some different nutes and soil again. I do miss growing in my tubes... I frequently look back at pics from earlier generations on hydro and my soil grows simply don't compare. Well, at least not the ones I've done after hydro. I had great pre-hydro soil run but used 5 huge pots which isn't enough for breeding.

I ended up with 5 very strong very healthy looking seeds out of the whole plant. Thats not good or fair to the Hunt is it?

5 plants is not great for hunting especially in the first gen but, those 5 seeds all carry a different mix of the genes of the parents. Theoretically and oversimplified, 1 of the seeds can contain the left part of all 10 chromosomes set of Nyvia II and another seed can contain all the right parts of Nyvia II, capturing all genes from the Nyvia II in only 2 seeds. In reality a seed may have the left part of some and the right part of others, scrambled. With only 5 seeds it's unlikely that they retained all the genetics from 1 of the parents entirely, but, the majority including the ones responsible for the best traits may still be there.

All the genes that were homozygous in Nyvia II are in those seeds (homozygous making it irrelevant whether the offspring got the left or right part).

What's important now is to create a large amount of F2 seeds based on ALL those 5 seeds regardless of how they look. If a plant of those 5 shows more like the Nyvia II it does not mean it has more genes of the Nyvia II parent than the gsc. It just means that the trait you observe is a combination of both genes from the Nyvia II and the gsc and the Nyvia II gene is dominant.

In the F2 the left half of many Nyvia II genes will recombine with their original right half. In F2 you can find plans that genetically ARE more like the original Nyvia II instead of just looking like it, or despite not looking like it.

E.G if if none of the 5 smell like the Nyvia, there's still a good chance the offspring will contain plants that smell like Nyvia (but grow like GSC, yield like Nyvia, etc.etc) and with some luck you can still end up with the best of Nyvia II or the best of the combination.

Oh for what it's worth, you still got 4 more seeds than I got my first attempt :)

 

[Sativied]

The 9 P-F3 line 19 plants, just woke up:

Excuse the smoke :)

The one on the left is a female:

It has the structure I was after with the P cross, not like most of the plants of the other F3 lines (#4 and swan/#22))

One of the CH F3, younger hence smaller but looking good so far:

 

[Sativied]

400w closet with mostly CH F2 and F3 and the AW plants + clones.

As you can see the AW plants have some bleached leaves at the bottom. I potted them up and noticed most were root bound already, soil also too compact. Did use a different soil mix which probably plays a role too but I think the main mistake I made was drowning them after topping them. My own crosses don't care if I do but these AW clearly stagnated, reduced transpiration from removing the top while adding more water...

I got clones of most so I'm going to run them either way. Giving these some more time to recover before they go in the 600w closet. New growth, the remaining 4-6 tops per plant, looks good and 3 of them even greened up a bit but these sure require more TLC than anything I've grown. Would be nice if at least 5 of the 8 are female...

The one on the right is the spiral AW weirdo. Perfectly normal after topping, probably going to have to clone it after all.

 

[Sativied]

I may have posted this before but I want to share my simple cloning technique because it works so well (100%).

- take cutting (small, 5-6"), cut the tips of any large fans.
- put in glass of water for 24-48 hours... notice it will stay super fit without a dome, and suck itself full with water.
- put in soil/coco/whatever-you-prefer (if the bottom tip of the cutting turned slightly brown cut off 1/4")
- water the medium
- put a glass (or half a bottle or something else as dome) on top of it
- place it under light, behind window or under fluo or under hps.
- 5-8 days later, remove the dome, and keep an eye on the clone. If it starts wilting within one or several hours it does not have enough roots to take up enough water to prevent it from transpiring more water than it can take up. Assuming the medium isn't too dry of course. Adding the dome again will make it recover within one or several hours (the dome raises humidity which reduces transpiration again). Try again in a couple of days. If it doesn't wilt but stays strong without the dome it's rooted.

Obviously not convenient if you need to clone a lot, but if you need to clone a couple of plants or a handful and don't have a separate cloner or space, or just want to back up a plant half way through the cycle...

 

[Sativied]

Some examples, the AW that started out normal, Norma, and NormB.

Norma, took cutting (topped master plant) 13 days ago, has been running without a dome for 3 days now.

NormB, cutting taken 11 days ago, running without dome for 2 days:

They look healthier than the plants I took them from... :oops:

 

[usstoner]

Right on..nice thread..you've got lots of passion for your work and it shows in you're plants...nice work...

 

[Sativied]

This is not the same plant as the female P-F3 in the second and third pic in post #468, this is her twin brother :D

Almost anyway... he has 1 more node.

This is the second best female of the P-F3 group:

Messed up the light schedule the past 2 days after first day 12/12, ran 16/8 and 18/6, so... 12/12 starts tomorrow. Bad timing... pun intended.

I'm thinking of growing the third one sideways and perhaps the one above too. Short node spacing now but will get tall and could stretch a lot... adding the fact I got only 3 females, I want to get the most out of them. Potted the best one up too a larger round pot already.

Actually, I'm still not 100% on the sex of that third female, they look like female pistils (pear shaped) but no stigmas, not even under a scope. As if the tip won't open... stigma-less pistils... that would be a sight in a bud, but clone-only...

 

[geologic]

Bad timing... pun intended.

...

 

[Sativied]

Turns out I got 4 females out of the 9 P-F3... so one more than I thought initially. Nice one too, similar bushy. Gives me some hope I can find a good female. Not too hairy that is. I know they are in there from the previous F3 runs but those didn't have the right structure.

That would give me some interesting options:
- create P-F4, possibly with multiple males and females.
- create P-F3 x Amnesia White (test)
- create P-F3 x Cannalope Haze F3 (from whorling parents but still not whorling...). P is Chunk x CH, so it would be (chunk x ch) x ch. Possibly narrow those leaflets a little.

And finally a pic of a pretty AW plant:

They don't all look this good but really happy to see some yellowing/light leaves become dark again... Easy on hydro but greening up in soil is always a challenge for me especially since I'm rarely certain of the cause. Spotted a few preflowers, too small to determine sex but I think two are male. Some are starting to alternate, couple of days more under 400w and then the AW will join the P-F3 in the 600w flower closet. I hope they show sex soon so I can pot up the females.

NormB started out leaning more towards the afghani side in one parent but is one of my favorites at the moment:

 

[Sativied]

Still a bit too soon to be 100% certain, but it looks like I will have 3 females in the 8 AW... :sour: I hope it's at least 3 anyway. Worst case scenario it's less, best case scenario I'm wrong about one of the males.

Loos like NormA is female and NormB is male, just like I requested the grow gods. The "pretty one", first pic in post above, appears to be female. If it is, and NormA too, the so far best two are female which is unusual for me.

I'm impressed by the internode spacing on all of them. Even though my P-F3 are currently more compact than ever (better nutes I think, 9-10 nodes in barely a feet plant) when P's branches try to reach the canopy they do so mostly by stretching, while the AW keeps stacking nodes.

The plant with the double leaf + self-topped branch (posted in Geo's thread) is a male, won't be using that one. The spriral AW is likely male too, won't be using that one either. That leaves 3 males and 3 females hopefully. Good enough to create a few hundred seeds and see what ((haze x afghani) x thai ) X ((haze x afghani) x thai ) results into... hoping for relatively afghani short fast frosty amnesia-tasting yet enough haze and thai in it to get me high (instead of stoned...).

I missed an option in my previous post... AW x CH-F3. Could perhaps put some 'H'(aze) back in the CH before crossing it with the P again. P needs more slender leaves.

The best two females aren't like this but most of the P-F3 (swan line and line #4 too) are like this. It's as if I crossed the fat leaves from the chunk in the CH. Those branches above are clearly stretching because of shade avoidance. It's really obvious when comparing the 4 females I got now, the more slender the leaflets, the better the structure (more nodes on the branches that grow wider instead of stretch upwards).

Some AW plants:

I really like the structure, similar to the original CH, great for cropping.

Clones are doing great too.

Norma, going to pot her up tonight and then put her in the flower closet. They supposedly grow tall but since they are mature (starting to alternate and the preflowers). I won't mind tall if it leads to more yield.

Hey, remember that hottest day ever we had a while back... August 17 was the coldest aug 17 ever measured... plus we got 60 hours rain, another record broken.

 

[geologic]

Record high temps here--
2 or 3 days last week...

 

[geologic]

Do you ascribe any significance to a male plant,
whose flowers produces much less pollen;
than (average) other males--
[sorry, not same variety...]...

 

[Sativied]

I'm impressed by the internode spacing on all of them.

Uh yeah... cause they are all males...

One or two I'm not sure about yet but looks like they are all males. Still no pistils and Norma with it's pear shaped preflowers shows a few now that look like male preflowers... There's one with just 2 preflowers, pear shaped, later than the rest, which I hope could be female but I think that's mostly wishful thinking...

They perked up quite nicely over the past two days, which made me happy. The state of my plants always effect my mood a lot. When I get cranky it's usually because the plants are yellowing, not transpiring, or all turn out to be male...

After some abuse (checking for preflowers).

Just potted up Norma (round pot in pic above). Figured I check 'her' again, noticed some claws on preflowers... probably male too.

Going to Amsterdam tonight and again this Saturday. Not going to complain at sensi shop... but I will say:

The Amnesia White from White Label is now officially the worst seeds I've grown. The tough germination, the 8 out of 10 runt seedlings, all being male.. Do not buy :)

I still can and will create P-F3 x AW, CH-F3 x AW and probably CH-F2 x AW as well.

 

[Og Gong]

*The state of my plants always effect my mood alot. When I get cranky it's usually because the plants are yellowing,not transpiring, or all turn out to be male...

I'm the same way lol. :D

 

[Sativied]

I have a little over 30 of the CH F2 and F3 in the 400w that will now get enough space. Still all regular phyllotaxy... still a bit soon but starting to get worried. Once I'm 100% sure on the sex of the P-F3 and the AW I'm going to prune them down to a single branch and collect pollen asap.

To make matters worse, I just asked what the "Super Haze" is at a local shop, mentioned it earlier in this thread as a possible alternative, turns out it's Amnesia Haze too...

 

[Sativied]

Do you ascribe any significance to a male plant,
whose flowers produces much less pollen;
than (average) other males--
[sorry, not same variety...]...

Interesting question... Tough one too... noticeably less pollen per anther and not just less dense inflorescence right?

Without knowing what caused it I would not ascribe any significance to it.

I'd be curious to know what caused it. If it's genetic it still doesn't have to mean anything for the female offspring. Could be genes solely on the Y chromosome but females can produce pollen too and it theoretically could mean its producing less proteins or hormones, or processes related nutrients, that a female uses for its flowers as well.

It could for external reasons, environmental influences not be able to reach its genetic potential and produce plenty of pollen under for him more desirable circumstances.

I would probably select against it if given the option to select an otherwise similar one, "thinking" it "could" indicate it's somehow less potent. It would lose in natural selection but that doesn't mean its female offspring is any less good.