Breeding for whorls

[Toaster79]

better use organic neem oil

Google rape oil please. The oroduct I use IS organic!

 

[Sativied]

I get the pyrethrin from a hardcore organic growers shop too, it's a plant extract. They do mention it's stronger than some others and "is not suitable for daily use, it can be used to save a harvest without deviating from the natural path".

Also found some info on ivermectin, which seems to be ivermec, just some quotes:
"Chemically it is related to avermectin B which I believe is the main ingredient to Plant Vitality Plus"
"Ivermectin is a very popular horse,cattle, pig, sheep, bird, cat and dog de-wormer. You give it to your dogs when you give them heart guard. It is used on humans too, sold as Stromectol®."
"It also is certain death for most types of paracitic mites, including the ones that cause mange in cats and dogs."
"Ivermectin can be bought as an oral jel for horses, or in a topical or injectable liquid for cattle, sheep or pigs and such at your local feed and farm supply store, Tractor Supply Company, Southern States, or online from most horse or farm catalogs, valleyvet.com for example."

Bioquant ivermec is also a biological concentrate btw...
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Pollination of P-F3 with AW pollen went well:

Tried something different this time to prevent too many buds from getting pollinated. Pulled a bag over them except for 2-3 branches. Pollinated those, put a smaller bag over those, removed the large bag, left the small one on for a few hours, shook them while holding the bag closed at the bottom, then removed the small bags. So far so good but too soon to tell. Don't mind a few seeds spread around, just overdid it with the late night.

P-F3 with its long stigmas.

AW4:

Still too soon to pollinate. Did put the AW on 12/12 later but clearly flowering slower. They supposedly take 8-11 weeks.

 

[Sativied]

Popped 9 IH (ICE x CH quad) plants. Only flowered 2 females of those, IH5 was the best whorler, but also hermied badly. Did have a major light leak in it's corner but the bud wasn't great either. Very little smell, though after drying and curing not horrible. IH1 was a late whorler, produced horrible bud. ICE is very bushy, short nodes and quickly branches out, especially the IH5 had it too. So probably won't even flower these, just a quick test. One of the things I want to check if if they whorl earlier than most CH whorlers. Also want to see if they 'catch' mites, before I pop something more worthy...

Lizard tongue in appropriate color...

 

[Sativied]

:vulcan: It's growing little claws or teeth on the edges of the leaves.

AW, Norma, stretched a lot, compared to the others anyway, not too bad compared to P-F3.

AW4 is the best at the moment, though AW5 is very similar, AW4 is slightly ahead.

It's the one I treated with Pyrethrin cause it had some eggs on it. Haven't seen mites for a while, no new trails either. Love the structure, especially considering the genetics (haze x afghani) x thai.

I do have a clone of (the clone) of Norma in a rockwool cube that is going into a mix of roughly 70perlite, 20% coco, 10% hydroton at the bottom, hempy style. Want to give her another chance with less veg time before I ditch the clone. Norma because being normal had a head start compared to the weirdos so switched to 12/12 later. Amnesia, the clone only, isn't particularly selected for its structure either, and Norma may produce far better bud than the others.

Doesn't really matter cause it's the next generation I'm interested in, but at the same time, it's clearly not a stable cross (the wide range of flower duration listed by the breeder makes that obvious already), and it may be worth it to keep the AW female clones around.

Clone of clone of Norma (Amnesia White)

Had half a bottle on it as dome, hence the stretched petioles. That leaf on the right did not grow towards to golden angle, but was bend that way by the bottle. I think it's alternating and spiraling but if it were from seed this would be a good example... Would be funny if it becomes tri whorled... by hand.

The three CH whorlers are growing whorled branches too, not all, but includes a quad:

(those are mud crumbles :) )

Last but not least, P-F3 line 19 doing her thing.

 

[FlyinJStable]

Looking Stellar Sat-Man
My 1st seeds are doin Pretty good Myself.

Keep um green
FlyJ

 

[Sativied]

Yeah that's a pretty one FlyJ, wishing you lots of luck this round.

I'm having a bad grow year...

Can you distinguish hermaphrodites--
at pre-flower???...

Already replied to that earlier but was reminded of it now that I unfortunately have a good example:

No wonder why I thought she was female, male, and then female again. That last male flower was the ripest/largest. It's a miracle it hasn't pollinated itself (not a single stigma) since the males flowered weeks ago. Maybe sterile, or sterilized from the oily and wet anti mite treatments. All around node 4-5, seems to have had an identity crisis.

It's Norma, the initially best AW. Had a 2nd gen clone already read to go in hydro, and the 1st gen clone ready to produce 4 more... stretched more than the others but flowers faster too. Was just about to pollinate her when I noticed the balls, starting to look pretty damn good.

 

[geologic]

Good textbook photos...

 

[FlyinJStable]

Been watching real close as the new sets of leaves form from my Nyvia III's some good some bad...
Every time a new seed splits into life, there is something new to learn. Your grows always show you the Knowledge Good and the bad BUT its always learned.
I appreciate the way you share it.
Thank you S man
FlyJ

 

[Sativied]

Thanks for the postive words as always FlyJ.

Every time a new seed splits into life, there is something new to learn.

Ain't that the truth :D

AW4 getting very frosty early.

Slow but steady. Pollinated AW5 last night, will pollinate AW4 tonight.

P-F3 is such a sow with all her stigmas... roughly 4 weeks flowering, roughly 4-5 weeks to go... imagine the amount of seed this would produce if fully pollinated.

Seeds (P-F3 x AW) developing nicely:

I've been using a cotton swab for pollinating instead of a brush and it worked out quite nicely so far. Less pollen used so less on the leaves. Can brush with the cotton swab and tap it just softly above/in a flower to make a mini pollen cloud (with a large bag over the rest of the plant).

 

[FlyinJStable]

Keep it coming And your welcome as I also will follow your advice
I need to try that with the q tip
I didnt have the best luck with the paint brush even though it was Very fine small.
Hopen when The next Nyvia II is ready so will my pollinating skills. lol
Peace

 

[Sativied]

The pollen sticks to the cotton much better than to paint brush hairs. It wastes some pollen that remains stuck in the cotton but with a brush I need to be more careful to avoid putting pollen in the air even when merely moving it, while I need to dip it in pollen more often. In short, using a q tip is less messy. Can easily tell cause I use a led (from my phone...) to illuminate the flower while pollinating it in a fairly dark room. Makes it stand out like magic dust so I can see how much drops on the flower and how much... or little... goes up in the air.

I think I could get cleaner results by diluting the pollen.

This piece has been copied a lot without permission and sometimes even credit, so much that it doesn't even matter anymore but I've had good contact with Uncle Ben, learned a lot from him, and I'm sure he won't mind me copying and pasting it to here. Especially the last two paragraphs are of interest.

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Uncle Ben's pollination method
You have several choices for collecting and using pollen. Males will show as a football-like "ball" on a small, short petiole (stem) at the node sites. Once the pollen pods form, they will elongate via a stem, droop, and the flower bracts will open. After about one week after pollen pods first start to form, or upon complete opening of the male flower bracts, the male anther's will shed pollen which will appear as pale, yellow dust.

Males do not take much light to survive once they reach flowering stage. Leave your male plant(s) in the grow room until the first male pollen bracts just begin to crack, and then move 'em into another room with a typical 12/12 schedule, this can be simulated with light thru a window or a fluorescent light fixture.

You have a choice of placing this plant in a very quiet room with no air movement, set on clean paper, or, you can cut the branches off, making a clean slanted cut with a razor blade, and place the branches in a vase of water over paper. Collect the pollen once it begins shedding by placing a glazed ceramic plate or paper plate under the flowers and gently tap the individual branches. Pick out any flowers which tend to drop once in a while.

The pollen will be like dust, so don't visit the garden until you have taken a bath, or you may end up pollinating plants you didn't intend on pollinating.

Collect the pollen over time and place it into a clean vial like a film canister. I really like using a paper plate held under a group of flowers, and then gently thumping the stem. After collecting the pollen, the paper plate can be creased, held over a vial, and the sides and edges thumped until all the pollen is shaken into the vial. Shape the paper plate like a creased funnel.

For a pollen carrier, heat about 2 or 3 teaspoons of flour in an oven set to 180f for 20 minutes or in a small pot set on low heat, let it cool thoroughly, and mix with the pollen to dilute it. I use a ratio of about 1/4 teaspoon pollen to 3 teaspoon flour and have very successful pollination rates. Store in small containers like contact lens cases or film canister, excluding as much air as possible and store in the refrigerator for long term use. Remember, it only takes one male to fertilize one female ovule, and there are millions of pollen cells in a 1/4 teaspoon of pollen so be sure and dilute it.

Use a small artist brush (my preferred method) or toothpick to pollinate a few of the lower branches which have fresh, white pistils, label the pollinated branches, and harvest your seeds in 3 to 6 weeks. I just cure the seeded branches with the rest of the crop, and tear apart the seeded buds with my fingers. You'll find the seeds close to the stem. Store the seeds in the fridge or freezer, labeled of course, with a little dessicant like silica gel or heat treated (sterilized) rice for long term storage.
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[Og Gong]

@Sativied - Do you ever spray them down with water after pollinating before putting them back into the room?

 

[Sativied]

I have, it's indirectly what led to using the bags. So I wouldn't have to spray the entire plants again and can put the plants back immediately after pollinating them. I considered spraying it down before pollinating this time, with a small bag over the to be pollinated bud, and then I figured I might as well use a large bag over the rest of the plant instead. After pollinating I put a small bag over the pollinated buds and leave it there (under the light) for a few hours. Shaking that bag causes the loose pollen to either stick to pistils, trichs, or the inside of the bag (which gets a little wet on the inside from the plant transpiring). I do spray water after that but more in the air around the flower after pulling off the bag, than to really wash off pollen or make other flowers wet.

 

[Og Gong]

Thank you for that Sati... I will be adjusting my method. Everything makes sense. Thank you Uncle Ben. :D

 

[Sativied]

P-F3 on the left, Amnesia White on the right. AW switched to 12/12 later, about 5 days or so. AW is also topped (that's one of 4 branches).

The best of both could turn out quite nicely.

AW is slow.

P-F3 is fast, which is good cause the soil mix and nutes combination is not working out. I'm honestly more interested in the seeds by now, both the AWxAW and the P-F3 x AW, than the bud of the AW. 6 weeks and I'm back on hydro...

You're most welcome @Og Gong. I got to add I don't aim for 100% clean results, i.e. I don't sell bud and don't mind finding a couple of seeds, especially easy to remove mature ones, in some buds. That said, the small flowers just inches from the pollinated flowers have only 0-2 pollinated stigmas. I'm sure all plants will have buds with a couple of seeds in it actually, but then I did pollinate flowers on all plants.

Find the pollinated pistil :) (main bud of plant with 3 pollinated branches/bud sites/flowers)

 

[Sativied]

It would be cool to cross a whorler with the extremely high yielding strain like the Blue Dream cut and then see if any of the offspring yields even more, and then just keep a clone. In other words a side project just to see if you can increase yield due to whorling. Have you weighed the worled versus non-whirls to compare yield?:panda:

Better late than never? :) Just noticed your reply again. Though, you asked me something similar before and the answer still stands. BD is a good example of a bad candidate in that context. The thing is, if I were to cross whorling into BD (by itself very doable by crossing CH with BD), the result would be some plants that lean more towards Blue Berry and some that lean more towards SSH, so there would be a lot of variation already, skewing any comparison.

Yield is a quantitative trait, like pretty much everything you can measure/quantify. Opposed to qualitative traits (something a plant has or hasn't, like a color, a cannabinoid, a terpene, often the things that make a strain that strain) that are usually based on one gene or few genes, and generally follow mendel's laws, quantitative traits are based on many genes, of which some have little influence by itself but add to a combination. Many genes in that context do nothing more than boost other genes. Those traits don't follow mendelian inheritance. I.e. if you cross a low yielder with a high yielder you get offspring within that range/spectrum between low and high. This is why even in stable strains there's always one or more plant that are better in terms of yield, amount of frost, flower time etc.etc.

Breeding for quantitative traits is typically done by selecting the best from a population/generation and using only those for the best. Old skool putting the best with the best.

My point is, as I answered the previous time you asked about yield in whorlers, to make a fair comparison the trait would have to be in an otherwise stable. CH for example variates in flower time, so while the best whorlers seemed to become the fattest, the others flowered 5days or so longer so made up for that.

That would be to compare cola yield, because per plant it surely yields a little more (or the same per sqft but with less veg time), and if grown outdoors I think the difference would be very obvious. Simply because the exponential veg rate. More leaves is faster veg is more leaves is faster veg and so on.

By itself I do like the idea, creating a whorled clone only. Feasible too. More like a plan D though, if everything else fails. I'm not ready to release whorlers into the world either way, still too many unknowns.

 

[MrBelvedere]

:bookworm: Cool thx for posting, would love to see where you are a couple years from now. What a cool project- even though it is such a difficult task. Even if you just end up with a stellar clone that ends up yielding a lot, that is a great accomplishment- although that is not the main goal. Hats off :)

 

[Sativied]

I currently got 6 IH (ICExCH) in dwc and while they are producing plenty of healthy roots, the weirdo yellow/red one is still yellow/pale. I had the same issue with some in the second IH batch, which was on coco and blamed it on coco back then cause they were fine in dwc. Obviously not a good thing either, it's not synthesizing chlorophyll fast enough. Going to keep it for a while just to observe.

Raised the ppm from 350 to 450, which is what I use for full size plants normally... the entire cycle. Pale one's roots:

I can imagine the whorlers are more likely to expose themselves early when kept short like this. Probably going to transplant 2 females to hempy buckets/bottles and flower them once sexed. I'm going to run some P-F1 to bridge the period between current run and the P-F3 x AW.

 

[Sativied]

Barely 2 inch tall.

Seems like a straight up mutant. Obviously not good, it's the green that captures the light and it builds up less reserves now, but mutants that lack something are great for testing. If I had plenty of space I'd definitely clone it for testing but it'll have to go.

 

[Sativied]

That's AW4. She smells just perfect. As if she's been sprayed with Amnesia perfume. If she follows AW5 she will actually fatten up... I hope.

AW x P-F3 seeds in a P-F3. Getting excited about these.

Main bud from same - typical P-F3 line 19 - plant.