Breeding talk for everyone to understand

[growsince79]

Muhahaha <----- evil laugh. Now I need to learn how to read :/

Be careful, that shit will melt your brain.

 

[Aqua Man]

Be careful, that shit will melt your brain.

Yeah I'm making coffee and breaking out the glasses. Wish they made a geriatric print version lol. This is gonna be a chapter here and there thing as much as I can absorb at a time. I dont just want to read it but understand it so it will be a slow go.

 

[Chad.Westport]

Yeah I'm making coffee and breaking out the glasses. Wish they made a geriatric print version lol. This is gonna be a chapter here and there thing as much as I can absorb at a time. I dont just want to read it but understand it so it will be a slow go.

lol, read it without understanding it and then read it again. If you can retain everything in the one go..... you are a god :)

 

[Aqua Man]

lol, read it without understanding it and then read it again. If you can retain everything in the one go..... you are a god :)

Sounds like a good plan. I bought the book because I have 0 doubt I will need to refer back many times.

 

[Milson]

I honestly think this is pretty simple to get started with.

1. Figure out what "breeding true for desired traits" means.

2. Figure out what "hybrid vigor" means.

3. Try a cross. Do you really like it? Then come back to this breeding question.

The vast majority of seed sellers are just making crosses and testing for hermies etc when they find a great one. I don't think that requires that much literature knowledge.

Which is fine. There is a whole hell of a lot just in the above questions. But unless you are trying to improve within a line like @Dragonsflame , I just don't know if that's really the kind of breeding that requires understanding much of the breeding literature out there.

That said, I LOVE reading about it. I just don't think it's remotely practical for me in the near or medium term because I can't see myself trying to improve a line and take it to F3 unless I can grow much larger crops.

This is the most technical book I have on the subject. Requires some college level math for sure. Ace.

This is the best pot-specific book I know of.

I am reading green now. Bought it last week. So far it's good.

 

[Milson]

I honestly think this is pretty simple to get started with.

1. Figure out what "breeding true for desired traits" means.

2. Figure out what "hybrid vigor" means.

3. Try a cross. Do you really like it? Then come back to this breeding question.

The vast majority of seed sellers are just making crosses and testing for hermies etc when they find a great one. I don't think that requires that much literature knowledge.

Which is fine. There is a whole hell of a lot just in the above questions. But unless you are trying to improve within a line like @Dragonsflame , I just don't know if that's really the kind of breeding that requires understanding much of the breeding literature out there.

That said, I LOVE reading about it. I just don't think it's remotely practical for me in the near or medium term because I can't see myself trying to improve a line and take it to F3 unless I can grow much larger crops.

This is the most technical book I have on the subject. Requires some college level math for sure. Ace.

View attachment 1049276

This is the best pot-specific book I know of.
View attachment 1049277
I am reading green now. Bought it last week. So far it's good.

Here is a representative example of the Simmonds book. This is extremely my thing, but it's not quick reading.

 

[Islandgrows]

Hey guys / gals. Moving this over here instead of hijacking Aquamans thread.

Last question asked was - how can I learn more and what am I looking for.

Two principles are mandatory for understanding traditional breeding (male to female), the first is genetic inheritance which was best outlined by Gregor Mendel with his pea experiment. Another thing to familiarize yourself with is the Hardy-Weinberg Model.

If you're looking for a great book, but a very dry and science type read, go for :The Cannabis Breeders Bible" by Greg Green

I saw a great thread with explanation how you might go around breeding for traits. It's called "the bonsai sultan method" it was in another forum.

 

[Islandgrows]

https://www.calgarycmmc.com/freemarijuanaebooks.htm
Can Find some pdf of good books on this page

 

[Cracken]

Absolutely. Beyond F2-F3 you really start to get a lot of genetic variance and a lot of recessive traits pop out. Which is the point at which breeders start trying to identify plants similar to what you started with or outlier "special" plants, crossing those, then back crossing the male offspring back to mom, outbreeding with other stable strains and backcrossing again etc to keep the dominant alleles expressing.

so that explains it and simple to understand. So I am happy that this year I took a cutting of my best outdoor plant and have it inside now. I grew it out a little stressed the hell out of it and then flipped it into 12/12 and have one little cluster of flower happening and the rest is budding. if I use that pollen will all the seeds produced become hermie or is there hope for good seeds?

 

[Milson]

so that explains it and simple to understand. So I am happy that this year I took a cutting of my best outdoor plant and have it inside now. I grew it out a little stressed the hell out of it and then flipped it into 12/12 and have one little cluster of flower happening and the rest is budding. if I use that pollen will all the seeds produced become hermie or is there hope for good seeds?

Soooo just to clarify real quick. This is a very, very basic way to show why F2 should have the most variation.

So like, let's say you are breeding for a banana taste, which is recessive. You found it in one plant you want to breed to another plant to get banana taste. That's the sole goal. "A" is dominant, "a" is recessive. In other words, A shows if it is present. The only way to get banana flavor is "aa."

The other plant is AA. It would go like above.

Nothing would have banana in F1.

You can see that twenty five percent would be expected to have the banana taste in F2. That has the most options .

Select two plants expressing the recessive trait, and woo! F3 success. That trait is locked in now.

But that's holding everything else equal if that taste were just tied to one gene. And it's never even remotely that simple lol. But you are trying to reduce variety from F2 onward, and you can see why F2 is where you really blow apart the genetics of each parent strain and then recombine from F3 onward.

 

[Milson]

So this is my understanding of a basic idea of what "breeding true for a trait" means.

So let's say P1 has the combo that gives banana flavor (AbC) and you want to breed true for that. Notice it has one recessive gene for C.

You can probably see how you want to get a CC parent in F2, but you can't for sure know if your parent is Cc or CC. If the parent is Cc, it will not breed true for the trait. We see that in the move from F2 to F3. Had this example picked the right parent, F3 would be better for banana trait. But you can't tell!

This is super simplified, but I hope it makes sense what I mean.

Over time of course you can select for what you want.

Also, anything that has gone through enough generations will stabilize over time by sheer probability into having less Cc or Aa. This is one reason breeding with landraces makes sense and one thing "stable" means.

So you can probably see why breeding with genetic freak clone only cuts will be a mixed bag. Who knows how much is set and how much has the equivalent of Cc!

 

[Grownsince95]

You also need to take into account that some dominance is incomplete. Meaning a homozygous individual CC cwould display the full dominant trait, and the heterozygous Cc would display somewhere in between.

For example with flowers, red and white can be expressed as codominant = red and white spots, or incomplete = pink flowers

 

[Milson]

You also need to take into account that some dominance is incomplete. Meaning a homozygous individual CC cwould display the full dominant trait, and the heterozygous Cc would display somewhere in between.

For example with flowers, red and white can be expressed as codominant = red and white spots, or incomplete = pink flowers

Right! Even at its simplest form it's complex.

 

[Milson]

From Green.

So basically he thinks that most of the effort should be in finding a cool F1. Only then worry about stabilization...

Interesting. Basically my thought as well I think...with the exception that the really strange plants will be found at F2 if you can get the numbers....

Having gotten through most of it, very little is really about breeding. A lot about the business of breeding. A lot of science, but I did not find too much that was terribly helpful to me to be honest. Like, the advice on finding a male was "be ready to do a bunch of test crosses." Which, you know......I was kind of hoping for some wisdom on that front lol. But whatever I will just be following DJ Short's advice I think. Minus the acid...those days are behind me sadly.

But whatever. A lot of good info, just a lot of overlap with Cervantes etc. Plus business advice.

 

[Cracken]

So as a recap, i will buy 1000 acre plot cross two plants and throw seeds all over the ground. Then smell, touch, taste every plant that grows. Pick the few that i like then hug them and squeeze them and call them my very own.... I will name him George...
On paper the math formula of it is quite simple however desired traits could only occur in 1 of 1000 plants and that plant may be small and frail so back to crossing it with other offspring and hoping for that desired trait to stay in the mix. So possibly a few years of crossing and back crossing to have a desired trait come to the front of the gene pool. Then you find some butt head who finds a random seed in a bag that has what you have been looking for and the asshat grows it out (poorly) dries and smokes it all... genes gone...
So its like playing the lotto, we hope and dream of the next draw being the one.... because honestly we cant force the plants to do as we wish. But like the lotto, we keep playing because its the thrill of winning and finding that perfect trait that we have been chasing thru all the crossing and growing. I will be following you endeavors thru the thread and wish all the luck needed to find a great new cross that meets all your desires.

 

[Moshmen]

Super interesting thread! Even if ya don’t breed it’s a good idea to know what ur growing !

Much respect for the breeders who are trying to advance their lineage. Lots of skill and luck involved it sounds like !

 

[MIMedGrower]

I was suggested by the breeder i was loyal to for so long to pick the plants with the best structure and smell and most other desirable qualities tend to follow.

As long as you start with good plants in the first place.

 

[Milson]

I was suggested by the breeder i was loyal to for so long to pick the plants with the best structure and smell and most other desirable qualities tend to follow.

As long as you start with good plants in the first place.

Yeah Shantibaba says the weird smelling ones are your best bet.

 

[Milson]

So as a recap, i will buy 1000 acre plot cross two plants and throw seeds all over the ground. Then smell, touch, taste every plant that grows. Pick the few that i like then hug them and squeeze them and call them my very own.... I will name him George...
On paper the math formula of it is quite simple however desired traits could only occur in 1 of 1000 plants and that plant may be small and frail so back to crossing it with other offspring and hoping for that desired trait to stay in the mix. So possibly a few years of crossing and back crossing to have a desired trait come to the front of the gene pool. Then you find some butt head who finds a random seed in a bag that has what you have been looking for and the asshat grows it out (poorly) dries and smokes it all... genes gone...
So its like playing the lotto, we hope and dream of the next draw being the one.... because honestly we cant force the plants to do as we wish. But like the lotto, we keep playing because its the thrill of winning and finding that perfect trait that we have been chasing thru all the crossing and growing. I will be following you endeavors thru the thread and wish all the luck needed to find a great new cross that meets all your desires.

Lol kinda. But that's the F2s. For the F1s, if you start with good stock I think you have good odds to get something at least solid. Whether it's better than the parents.....is a selection game.

But yeah man it's an art on a small scale. Or luck. Or both.

There are only a few things in this world that make me happy: love, the sublime, learning, teaching (I tutor high school students on how to ace college entrance exams....remotely for the last four years...so I spend a lot of time trying to break down exactly how I think so I can share that with a student and provide a sturdy intellectual stake they can use to grow) and creation. I am cultivating an environment around those aspects of my life in the hopes this stupid organism (me) will thrive and quit being so whiny. Pot helps for most of the above.

What's incredible about today is how making F1 crosses and getting access to new genetics is....trivial compared to the recent past.....

So I'm gonna try messing around with it cause I'm me and I'm a weird son of a gun lol.

But yeah no goal in mind beyond making cool stuff and being happy. Like you said, pure numbers game. And thank you very much for the good luck wishes

 

[Aqua Man]

So as a recap, i will buy 1000 acre plot cross two plants and throw seeds all over the ground. Then smell, touch, taste every plant that grows. Pick the few that i like then hug them and squeeze them and call them my very own.... I will name him George...

Bahaha i just about spit my coffee out. I haven't thought about that in years. Too funny I forgot all about that book.