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Breeding With Another Breeder's Gear.

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Breeding With Another Breeder's Gear.

FiveAM 40 Replies 14,111 Views
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FiveAM

FiveAM

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#1
Questions for the breeders .

When does a strain become mine? At what point in my breeding does a strain I grew from your beans that I'm chucking pollen to become my strain?

NO troll, just a conversation to get things straight in my world. Thanks for anyone who checks in with an answer.
 
#2
Natures Way said:
Typically, a breeder expects his gear to be crossed with other strains, But in the case of Direct Strain Breeding, It is frowned upon by the breeder, only if you didn't get permission to replicate and Market the strain.
If you replicate the strain and give it to your friends is cool...Just give credit where credit is due.
Crossing the strain with any other strain is "Your Strain"...
Hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers lol...
Click to expand...

Honestly, isn't it really just the name that is important to the breeder?

If I take a breeder strain cross it, rename it and breed with that, seems like no one would care? I'm not using their strain, or name at that point.
 
#3
Crossing a two plants you got from breeders is really not "creating a strain". If you want to create a strain you've gotta go through at least 4 or 5 generation. Not saying the resulting cross may not put out some class A+ plants.

To sell seeds a generation or two down from available seed stock, is not just bad breeding, it is bad business. No work or quality put into the product.

This is strictly my opinion based on my interpretation of the definitions of certain words (strain, breeder, available seed stock, etc).
 
#4
Great comments, glad to see people chiming in with their opinions.

I really wish @Motarebel and @xX Kid Twist Xx would have left comments instead of likes.
These guys, I really respect their work and would love to hear what they had to say about the subject.
 
#5
FiveAM said:
Honestly, isn't it really just the name that is important to the breeder?

If I take a breeder strain cross it, rename it and breed with that, seems like no one would care? I'm not using their strain, or name at that point.
Click to expand...
Just to clear up if anyone is confused, I would never cross two plants and sell those seeds. :(:mad:

That's not what that post was about.
 
#6
Once you buy something it's yours. Have fun with it, throw all the pollen you want at it. A hobbiest has no boundaries and should be encouraged to breed their own designer genes and feel good about it. Breeders selling seeds generally start off using others work, cross em and call em their own. Like crossing Bodhi with Reeferman. Making f2's or inbreeding a line someone is working is frowned on. If breeder is dead or retired then their work is fair game to offer in a pure line. Bros. Grimm retired over 10 years ago and we offer Apollo 13 f4. Well they're back in biz so we're no longer offering the F4's once the stock runs out. Truthfully honesty and integrity only go so far in this biz.Without copyrights and patents there's nothing to keep peeps honest. Times have changed and peeps don't care about where it came from, just the results.
 
#7
Motarebel said:
Once you buy something it's yours. Have fun with it, throw all the pollen you want at it. A hobbiest has no boundaries and should be encouraged to breed their own designer genes and feel good about it. Breeders selling seeds generally start off using others work, cross em and call em their own. Like crossing Bodhi with Reeferman. Making f2's or inbreeding a line someone is working is frowned on. If breeder is dead or retired then their work is fair game to offer in a pure line. Bros. Grimm retired over 10 years ago and we offer Apollo 13 f4. Well they're back in biz so we're no longer offering the F4's once the stock runs out. Truthfully honesty and integrity only go so far in this biz.Without copyrights and patents there's nothing to keep peeps honest. Times have changed and peeps don't care about where it came from, just the results.
Click to expand...
Thank you for dropping in @Motarebel
What if I take a strain all the way to f5?

I've got an Alien Hallucination x LSD. Is that ok working that alien line?
 
#8
i pretty much agree with everything thats in this thread. before i made the aliendog f3's i asked Obsouleet if it was ok to make and let him know what i was gonna gonna do, before i did it. that way if he had any intentions to work the line himself he had the opportunity to let me know. the last thing you want to do is interfer with someone elses work, when they took the time to make it available to you. so if you ever have any concerns just ask the person, nowadays with the internet you can get ahold of just about anyone. if you made an honest effort to let a breeder know you are gonna use thier gear, i cant see how it would upset anyone.
 
#9
This subject is important.

I personally don't believe it's cool to cross two breeders work and call it your own.

I have friends that do it, but I wouldn't myself.

I'm actively involved in breeding my own strains.
But Im going work my lines to f2.
Find that special boy. Give him a nice name. Then start hitting him to cuts.
I think it's important to always give credit to the breeders gear your working with.
 
#10
For the price of beans out there today I belueve if I purchase gear from breeders with $$$ then I can do as I please. Just because I cross jilly billy with donkey dick making Billy's dick the work is not close to done. And if you sell these beans without stabilizing the phenos you want no one will buy them anyway if you have no reputation in the seed biz.lol
 
#11
There is some laws for breeders' rights, one is The Plant Variety Expression Act of 1970. ( The PVPA gives breeders up to 25 years of exclusive control over new, distinct, uniform, and stable sexually reproduced or tuber propagated plant varieties. A major expression of plant breeders' rights in the United States. With these rights, the breeder can choose to become the exclusive marketer of the variety, or to license the variety to others. In order to qualify for these exclusive rights, a variety must be new, distinct, uniform and stable.) I don't think you'll see a cannabis breeder file a lawsuit on someone but maybe in the future as the cannabis industry grows. Some companies might feel they need to go after people who use their seeds to cross with or make clones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Variety_Protection_Act_of_1970

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeders'_rights
 
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#12
I think breeders should know about these laws to protect their intellectual property from big companies. It's about to become a globally traded commodity so you better bet big companies are going to come in and steal everything from the naive. so be careful because you rights might be taken away. If a utility patent was applied for of a certain strain that carried the specific traits of your plant or plants you could even lose the rights to grow YOUR OWN CREATIONS. Talk to a lawyer if you are a serious breeder and you want to protect your gear!
 
#13
@CanadaSeeds

Unfortunately this is a dangerous mindset. Monsanto wants to patent genes, and it is built from this line of logic.

We need to make the sources free and available.

As important as landrace and wild lines are, these need to be kept free and open. It is not the original strains that should be protected, it is the special parents that are bred to be true breeding.

As in taking the landrace down 6 generations, these are the plants that can be used to make very special hybrids.

Free the source, protect the parents!
 
#14
I totally agree..and i have to say i'm indifferent about the issue. But i feel awareness needs to be spread so that folks can educate themselves about it. Everyone knows the business world is a full of cheats, liars and dirty crooks. The cannabis industry is not immune to this. No matter how much we fantasize, glamorize or envision a world where cannabis genetics remain free and open source, that's not what will happen. If you can protect your work, why wouldn't you? That's why i think breeders should consider patents on their work. it's so that the breeders' work can be protected from companies like monsanto. If you don't patent your creations someone else WILL. If you have all the legalities it will mean you have the upper hand. But just because a patent is filed on a strain doesn't mean others cannot work with it. It's all up to the breeder.

Let's say company 'X' files patents for all their strains. They do have the power to stop individuals or groups from unauthorized use of their product. But will they?! the answer is: No. (in most cases). You will not see breeders saying "hey you can't clone my plants and share them, you can't pollinate crops and create seeds". You would see that happen if monsanto owned the patents ;). Most breeders would be proud if people were using their work for projects. With legal framework it just means that if anyone wants to sell or work with your gear they have to ask you, it's up to you what you want to do. IMO breeders would be accepting to others using their gear for personal and business ventures. Obviously there are some who will want compensation. I'm sure most breeders would say no problem make 10,000 clones of my plants share them, do what you will. But on the other hand take for example, a shop is selling 1,000 DJ short blueberry cuts a month. Now let's say there's 150 shops selling 1,000 DJ short blueberry cuts a month. That's a lot of money. With all the effort breeders put into acquiring the genetics and then breeding all the plants, it's only fair to imagine they would like a return on their work.. And that would all depend on whether or not they had the right legal framework in place.
 
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#15
The more i think of the subject it makes me realize the ownership of the intellectual property is the what counts.

If a shop is selling 1,000 blueberry cuts it's because it's DJ shorts gear. His work has been proven to be of exceptional quality and what he created is his 'intellectual property'. The store is really only selling that many cuts because it's dj's work... so the store is using his intellectual property to create sales.

Imagine if you knew 150 shops were selling your cuts and you couldn't collect a penny because you weren't legally entitled... worse you find out the manager at one of the stores had acquired the legal rights to the cut he's making so much off, and it's your cut. now any other store that sells that cut, he makes part of the income. You may even be asked to cease work on that particular variety or you would be in violation of criminal code: bla bla bla
 
#17
Love this thread. Lost of opinions checking in, that's exactly what this thread needs.:)

*PLEASE KEEP IN MIND*

We aren't all going to agree, voice your opinions PLEASE don't attack anyone you DON'T agree with.

This thread is for education, debates, discussions and so forth.

That being said, thank you for any and all who check it.:smoking:
 
#18
CanadaSeeds said:
There is some laws for breeders' rights, one is The Plant Variety Expression Act of 1970. ( The PVPA gives breeders up to 25 years of exclusive control over new, distinct, uniform, and stable sexually reproduced or tuber propagated plant varieties. A major expression of plant breeders' rights in the United States. With these rights, the breeder can choose to become the exclusive marketer of the variety, or to license the variety to others. In order to qualify for these exclusive rights, a variety must be new, distinct, uniform and stable.) I don't think you'll see a cannabis breeder file a lawsuit on someone but maybe in the future as the cannabis industry grows. Some companies might feel they need to go after people who use their seeds to cross with or make clones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Variety_Protection_Act_of_1970

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeders'_rights
Click to expand...
"a variety must be new, distinct, uniform and stable" applies in NL too, since 1941, where most new plant varieties originate, but also includes "resistant". Mostly as in adapted to a certain environment.

I'm all for this but with the addition of what we in NL call cultivators rights.

Growers and breeders who buy seeds are allowed to:
- reproduce the seeds endlessly for their own use (this is partly why breeders release heterozygous F1 hybrids instead of truebreds)
- create new crosses to grow
- stabilize those crosses into something new, distinct, uniform and stable and release as their own variety.

It's laws like these that actually protected the breeding industry from companies like monsanto and allowed it to flourish for 60 years.

The problems started when breeders (including monsanto) started protecting their work using patents instead of existing cultivator/breeder rights. Initially for gmo varieties created using non-traditional breeding methods, but later also for genes nature essentially bred into a variety. That is where it goes wrong because that no longer allows breeders to use all strains as a trait donor for new varieties.

What it comes down to imo is the amount of effort made in addition to the results. Don't do with someone else's seeds what you wouldn't want others to do with yours.
 
#19
shemshemet said:
We need to make the sources free and available.
Click to expand...

Looking deep into the future, the only way to do this effectively is to be able to use PVR, IPR and other standards of intellectual property protection. By protecting via plant variety rights, patents or other IP protection mechanisms Breeders have more solid foundations to spread real work. Protection does not mean they cannot elect to offer them freely to all, but does allow them to protect work from other predatory seed companies.

Also, genomic sciences are advancing, and there are tools now to ascertain foundation stocks and trace DNA. Obviously DNA cannot lie. Future will be what we make it, but we need to be able to protect work done from big ag, as well as unfortunately the predatory nature of the current seed industry, which most often is simply renaming and attaching stories, not breeding.
 
#20
Once you purchase genetics they are yours. If you make a cross with them it's polite to list it as a "cross" and not a "strain". A "strain" is from line breeding to lock down certain characteristics you are featuring in your creation. DJ Short releases his genetics on F4 & F5 generations. Therefore they can be considered a "strain" and product of his own line breeding. Some breeders will take one hybrid male and one hybrid female and breed them together one generation releasing the seeds as a "strain" instead of a "cross". This creates lots of phenotype variations which makes it difficult to "label" what the seeds will become, and is good for random selection, but not if you are looking to purchase specific traits as a consumer. So in conclusion, breeders appreciate it more if you use their work to create a 5th generation project and THEN call it a "strain" that YOU created. If you take a breeder's F5 generation, chuck some pollen onto your favorite local club cut and call it your creation, well that's not going to please or impress any genetic engineers. You might pull a new flavor from recessive gene combos that would make a unique concentrate, but it's always best to give credit to people who take the time to lock down SUPER variations of genetic combos. :)
 
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