Buffering RO water

[cemchris]

But are either necessary in a buffered soil? Personally I think having to add either is a soil problem or source water issue.

Thoughts?

Yeah proper soil shouldn't have any of those concerns. I am by no means a soil guy just a nute guy so prob not the best person to school on that. NH4/N03 has a big affect on soil PH tho and the micro breaking it down.

How the Ammonium-nitrate ratio affects your plants | CANNA Gardening USA

In this article, we are going to look specifically at the effect of the ammonium/nitrate ratio and its effect on the growth and development. Read more >

www.cannagardening.com

Nitrogen conversion processes in the soil

Figure 3: This lettuce root is discoloured
because of ammonium toxicity. Ammonium
toxicity occurs when soils are cool and the
soil surface is sealed or compacted, resulting in
slow nitrification rates. This disorder can also occur in
fields with poorly drained, waterlogged soils.
The use of fertilizers that contain ammonium can
contribute to ammonium toxicity as well.

As explained earlier, ammonium uptake usually makes the soil pH in the root zone fall, while nitrate uptake raises the soil pH. Under certain conditions, however, the pH may not respond as expected due to microbial activity around the roots. Most of the processes that involve ammonium and nitrate are part of the nitrogen cycle (figure 2). The most important step is the biological oxidation of ammonium to nitrate, known as nitrification. This process consists of various steps and is mediated by autotrophic, obligate aerobic bacteria, meaning that oxygen is required. The plants take up their nitrogen source as nitrate rather than ammonium, effectively increasing the pH in the rooting zone.

The nitrification process can easily be disturbed, and such disturbances usually result in ammonium accumulation in the soil. One of the causes is a low soil pH, which limits the nitrogen conversion by depressing the microbial oxidation of ammonium.

Secondly, as mentioned earlier, converting ammonium to nitrate in the soil requires oxygen. In very wet soils, the air content drops which often means less oxygen available in the soil. In the absence of oxygen, microbial activity is usually low, meaning less ammonium is converted to nitrate and an accumulation of ammonium.

The soil micro-organisms need organic matter (dead plant material, humus) as a source of carbon. In poor soils with little organic matter like sandy soils, microbial growth and thus nitrification is limited. A low soil temperature can also depress nitrification, due to low soil micro-organism activity.

hey dirtbag thanks for the tip.. im a bit confused when it comes silicate, silicon, silicic acid ... is it all the same? I mean i use silicon or silicate ( aptus regulator ) to improve the plants immune system, aparently it makes the cell´s wall thicker, makes them resistent to pests and high temperatures, and controls the internode distance so they dont strectch excesively,, is that what potassium silicate does apart from helping to buffer the Ph?

It's all the same. Different sources. Paying way more for some sources but plants only uptake it in 1 form. Don't buy into the marketing for paying $120+ for a bottle of Si.

Here is a read on it. Getting Agsil-16 is your best bet. If you want to buy bottled don't waste your money on Aptus or OSA ect and just get Pro-tekt from Dynagro

Soluble Silicon Fertilizer Comparison

Soluble Silicon Fertilizer Comparison

customhydronutrients.com

 

[Aqua Man]

Yeah proper soil shouldn't have any of those concerns. I am by no means a soil guy just a nute guy so prob not the best person to school on that. NH4/N03 has a big affect on soil PH tho and the micro breaking it down.

How the Ammonium-nitrate ratio affects your plants | CANNA Gardening USA

In this article, we are going to look specifically at the effect of the ammonium/nitrate ratio and its effect on the growth and development. Read more >

www.cannagardening.com

Nitrogen conversion processes in the soil

Figure 3: This lettuce root is discoloured
because of ammonium toxicity. Ammonium
toxicity occurs when soils are cool and the
soil surface is sealed or compacted, resulting in
slow nitrification rates. This disorder can also occur in
fields with poorly drained, waterlogged soils.
The use of fertilizers that contain ammonium can
contribute to ammonium toxicity as well.

As explained earlier, ammonium uptake usually makes the soil pH in the root zone fall, while nitrate uptake raises the soil pH. Under certain conditions, however, the pH may not respond as expected due to microbial activity around the roots. Most of the processes that involve ammonium and nitrate are part of the nitrogen cycle (figure 2). The most important step is the biological oxidation of ammonium to nitrate, known as nitrification. This process consists of various steps and is mediated by autotrophic, obligate aerobic bacteria, meaning that oxygen is required. The plants take up their nitrogen source as nitrate rather than ammonium, effectively increasing the pH in the rooting zone.

The nitrification process can easily be disturbed, and such disturbances usually result in ammonium accumulation in the soil. One of the causes is a low soil pH, which limits the nitrogen conversion by depressing the microbial oxidation of ammonium.

Secondly, as mentioned earlier, converting ammonium to nitrate in the soil requires oxygen. In very wet soils, the air content drops which often means less oxygen available in the soil. In the absence of oxygen, microbial activity is usually low, meaning less ammonium is converted to nitrate and an accumulation of ammonium.

The soil micro-organisms need organic matter (dead plant material, humus) as a source of carbon. In poor soils with little organic matter like sandy soils, microbial growth and thus nitrification is limited. A low soil temperature can also depress nitrification, due to low soil micro-organism activity.






It's all the same. Different sources. Paying way more for some sources but plants only uptake it in 1 form. Don't buy into the marketing for paying $120+ for a bottle of Si.

Here is a read on it. Getting Agsil-16 is your best bet. If you want to buy bottled don't waste your money on Aptus or OSA ect and just get Pro-tekt from Dynagro

Soluble Silicon Fertilizer Comparison

Soluble Silicon Fertilizer Comparison

customhydronutrients.com

Don't need to be a soil guy... I'm not either. And 100% on the microbes affecting soil pH and pH affecting microbe populations. It's kinda how soil balances its ph to an extent. I have seen this in hydro and aquariums as well. You can crash the ph of you have no buffering capacity that's why ammonia/ammonium is not a good source in hydro but in small amounts it's beneficial. If you have the denitrifying bacteria to convert it in the first place.

Also ppl dumping large amounts of microbes/teas can have a large effect on o2 and ph even causing large ph swings.

If the ph crashes you kill all your microbes.

 

[redshift75]

so what would be the most economical way to buffer the RO water avoiding cal mag? if i went with potassium silicate how much does one use to say 1 gallon. I see i can buy pounds of it for pretty cheap. But is that the best option? As i feel like when i switch over to this new RO system on the new well im going to have to do some buffering to make it work around the farm.

 

[Aqua Man]

so what would be the most economical way to buffer the RO water avoiding cal mag? if i went with potassium silicate how much does one use to say 1 gallon. I see i can buy pounds of it for pretty cheap. But is that the best option? As i feel like when i switch over to this new RO system on the new well im going to have to do some buffering to make it work around the farm.

If you use To you will likely need cal mag unless your nutrients account for RO water. Silica does not replace that.

 

[redshift75]

If you use To you will likely need cal mag unless your nutrients account for RO water. Silica does not replace that.

i use dyna gro. so dont really ever have cal mag. Although i do have their mag pro additive. I thought about using dolomite lime? or should i just stick with a simple cal mag solution

 

[cemchris]

so what would be the most economical way to buffer the RO water avoiding cal mag? if i went with potassium silicate how much does one use to say 1 gallon. I see i can buy pounds of it for pretty cheap. But is that the best option? As i feel like when i switch over to this new RO system on the new well im going to have to do some buffering to make it work around the farm.

Mixing it with tap if tap is acceptable. Anything over like 150 ppm I wouldn't or I would work it out to see exactly what you are adding on the sodium side of things. Basically you are stripping everything out of the water and then paying to add it back. RO is very good for certain situations. I'm a full on hydro guy and I use tap don't touch RO since my water is acceptable.

If your concern is for microbiology running something like a tall boy or similar is a better option if you water is decent.

 

[cemchris]

i use dyna gro. so dont really ever have cal mag. Although i do have their mag pro additive. I thought about using dolomite lime? or should i just stick with a simple cal mag solution

Should work out if you need Ca or Mg or neither or adjust the soil mix/feeding to accommodate for the added nutes if using. Very seldom do you every need both of them. Calmg is a tomato additive for blossom end rot. It's kind of the "Fix everything. MOAR Calmg" butt of the joke. When dealing with soil you have a lot more options then hitting a bottle. You won't every see a bottle of that stuff in my grows (yeah I know my sig lol)

 

[redshift75]

Mixing it with tap if tap is acceptable. Anything over like 150 ppm I wouldn't or I would work it out to see exactly what you are adding on the sodium side of things. Basically you are stripping everything out of the water and then paying to add it back. RO is very good for certain situations. I'm a full on hydro guy and I use tap don't touch RO since my water is acceptable.

If your concern is for microbiology running something like a tall boy or similar is a better option if you water is decent.

Tap isnt an option. we had to get a new well and the new well water isnt working out on the farm. it may eventually balance out like the old well. But for now RO is the way ive decided to go.

 

[Aqua Man]

i use dyna gro. so dont really ever have cal mag. Although i do have their mag pro additive. I thought about using dolomite lime? or should i just stick with a simple cal mag solution

Cal mag and dolomite lime are usually not interchangeable. Cal mag will usually be nitrate sourced which lowers ph dolomite lime has carbonates which raise ph and create a buffer. You can find some cal mag that use calcium carbonate instead of calcium nitrate bit you may need to hunt and it will be less concentrated because calcium nitrate much more easily dissolved..

I'm not familiar with dyna gros ingredients but some here are.

Best option is use a combination of cal mag that's nitrate based at 100-150ppm and potassium silicate. This will give you the cal mag and buffer with added silica and potassium which are all beneficial.

I haven't used the potassium silicate so without looking it up I can tell you the dosage but you want to mix the potassium silicate into the ro first then ph down to 6.2 then add cal mag then dyna gro.

Of you don't ph after potassium silicate and add cal mag you will get precipitate.

 

[Aqua Man]

Should work out if you need Ca or Mg or neither or adjust the soil mix/feeding to accommodate for the added nutes if using. Very seldom do you every need both of them. Calmg is a tomato additive for blossom end rot. It's kind of the "Fix everything. MOAR Calmg" butt of the joke. When dealing with soil you have a lot more options then hitting a bottle.

This ^^^ Like @cemchris said work it out im not familiar to the ingredients in dyna gro so it may need cal mag and it may not when using RO. He is a good person to help ya on that as I haven't mixed my own nutes in some time.

 

[cemchris]

Tap isnt an option. we had to get a new well and the new well water isnt working out on the farm. it may eventually balance out like the old well. But for now RO is the way ive decided to go.

I understand. Go with @Aqua Man suggestion. When it comes to water and understanding that is the man right there. Ive been in your shoes before. 1200 ppm well. Fun times.

Edit: Let me add one thing. If that is the situation you are dealing with pre filter your water before hitting the RO. In the well situation I was running through filters every 3 months before I was doing that. Saves you a ton of money in the long run or until your well gets acceptable.

 

[redshift75]

Cal mag and dolomite lime are usually not interchangeable. Cal mag will usually be nitrate sourced which lowers ph dolomite lime has carbonates which raise ph and create a buffer. You can find some cal mag that use calcium carbonate instead of calcium nitrate bit you may need to hunt and it will be less concentrated because calcium nitrate much more easily dissolved..

I'm not familiar with dyna gros ingredients but some here are.

Best option is use a combination of cal mag that's nitrate based at 100-150ppm and potassium silicate. This will give you the cal mag and buffer with added silica and potassium which are all beneficial.

I haven't used the potassium silicate so without looking it up I can tell you the dosage but you want to mix the potassium silicate into the ro first then ph down to 6.2 then add cal mag then dyna gro.

Of you don't ph after potassium silicate and add cal mag you will get precipitate.

with dyna gro they say "Each has sufficient levels of calcium and magnesium. You do not need a Cal-Mag supplement when using Dyna-Gro™ nutrients. " SO i should be good just adding my base nutrients. This was what i was kind of basing my going with RO on. But then this topic came up and i wasnt sure how buffering would work out as a base to the water. Since im not going with the mineralization filters. Somehow i just felt the clean slate 0 water would be best route to go.

 

[Aqua Man]

Mixing it with tap if tap is acceptable. Anything over like 150 ppm I wouldn't or I would work it out to see exactly what you are adding on the sodium side of things. Basically you are stripping everything out of the water and then paying to add it back. RO is very good for certain situations. I'm a full on hydro guy and I use tap don't touch RO since my water is acceptable.

If your concern is for microbiology running something like a tall boy or similar is a better option if you water is decent.

Exactly Google your water report and look at the sodium levels if they aren't bad and ppm is 150 even 200 depending on the makeup bit 100-150 is ideal. If the sodium is ok and the tap is 300ppm you can mix it with RO and be good to go.... No cal mag

 

[redshift75]

I understand. Go with @Aqua Man suggestion. When it comes to water and understanding that is the man right there. Ive been in your shoes before. 1200 ppm well. Fun times.

yeah it wasnt me that wanted it. Was forced upon us to get a new well. The old well actually had better water in all scientific metrics. But when it comes to those A.G. improvement loans they get to dictate certain terms and its their way of "one hand washing the other". Im working on a work around but will be at least a season or two out. Plus we had to get a bunch of stuff so they would approve the loan for the new farm. So you know total headache of two years we have had to deal with all this. But we are in the homestretch to just be where we wanted to be at the start.

 

[Aqua Man]

with dyna gro they say "Each has sufficient levels of calcium and magnesium. You do not need a Cal-Mag supplement when using Dyna-Gro™ nutrients. " SO i should be good just adding my base nutrients. This was what i was kind of basing my going with RO on. But then this topic came up and i wasnt sure how buffering would work out as a base to the water. Since im not going with the mineralization filters. Somehow i just felt the clean slate 0 water would be best route to go.

I would still go with the potassium silicate

 

[redshift75]

I would still go with the potassium silicate

yeah i called my grow store and they have lb of it for $15. so ima grab it next time im in town. Ill figure out how to use it. I like protekt but have looked into doing my own silicate blend for awhile now. This was on that list of ingredients, so it works out to push me towards that instead of grabbing another jug.

 

[Aqua Man]

yeah i called my grow store and they have lb of it for $15. so ima grab it next time im in town.

Just make sure you add it first then ph down to 6.2 before adding nutrients... Very important

 

[redshift75]

Just make sure you add it first then ph down to 6.2 before adding nutrients... Very important

I wrote it down on my mixing notes. So ill be sure to do that.

 

[Dirtbag]

FWIW to pop in here for a sec, my buddy who swears by dyna gro never ever used calmag, even in coco. It's got plenty of calcium on it's own. Foliage pro anyway...

 

[redshift75]

FWIW to pop in here for a sec, my buddy who swears by dyna gro never ever used calmag, even in coco. It's got plenty of calcium on it's own. Foliage pro anyway...

yeah ive never had cal or mag deficiencies that werent from something else. Such as my water issues :) I love the stuff and use it for all my farming except full organic stuff.