camag+ vs. molasses and epsom salt

[E.T.]

having a debate with a friend about which is better.....not going into the details of our argument, just want other opinions. experiences, pro's, con's, etc.

 

[mastacheeser]

well the salt is only mag
so cal mag is the winner here but its not doing anything for taste
id run calmag and molasses

 

[mastacheeser]

wiki
Magnesium sulfate (or magnesium sulphate) is a chemical compound containing magnesium, sulfur and oxygen, with the formula MgSO4. It is often encountered as the heptahydrate epsomite (MgSO4·7H2O)
no calcium

 

[Z-ro]

In a real world experience, it depends what you need the supplement for. Calmag+ has nitrogen so i tend not to use it past week 4, epsom is great if you only need magnesium, good in late flower on the diesel family. Also GHs general organics line CaMg is good if you need a lot of calcium and mag but no nitro. Depending on which medium and base fertilizers will dictate what additives I might use, for example Botanicares PBP line is way short in micro nutes so you have to buy the calmag, LK, sweet(lots of mg and S) to balance the deficits, whereas something like Floranova, CNS, or HG is more complete and might only require small touches of additives here and there. A lot of companies use magnesium sulfate(epsom) as a main source for mg in their lines.

 

[G Star]

what epsom salt concentration/gallon would you suggest using for soil? I am currently using Molasses and AN Sensi Bloom, I would like to use something else besides a a Ca+Mg-product, I'm pretty sure my tap water has enough Calcium for the girls.

 

[smokey79]

Approx gram per litre 5g/tea spoon per gallon, it has high EC and overdose can block out other nutes, maybe others use more concentrated solutions but u can always add more,instead damage with too much I also hear that mg@week4in flower an lil bit at end, it helps uptake ofP and apparently additive of tobbacco aids smooth burning smoke?-only read it that my 2p bit flung in, I use canna coir and ferts, with a couple organic addatives-I find bone meal great way add cal/mg but full of P good in flower made into a T
hope this helps, luck growing happy smoken!=)

 

[The Joker]

I've never had a problem using calmag in flower. Especially with calmag hogs like Chemdog D and Blueberry Sativa. I tried epsom but it did not work in hydro. I'm soil now, maybe there would be a big difference.

I'm growing organic with teas and the whole shebang, still use calmag and a little silicate.

Molasses does not feed the plants, it feeds the microherd in the soil, which feed your plant. If you are using chem ferts, there is no need for molasses.

 

[2DogWalker]

ET,

From my limited experience with MJ and a more vast experience with edibles from epsom perspective.

I think cal mag was designed for use with R.O. as almost any non filtered tap will have enough calcium (mine for sure - well water starts at 415 PPM - OH MY), but my plants were suffering from too much calcium (or it is my opinion this was the case) thus locking out the magnesium or preventing it from uptake.

I have since foliar feed with epsom (as well on many a corn field) to get that mg back up, and now for GSTAR I use a 1/2 tsp per gallon of water for what its worth everything looks good so far....

2Dog

 

[justiceman]

Calmag nutrients VS Molasses and Epsom salt(magnesium sulfate)

Calmag nutrients
*Botanicare calmag plus = Calcium nitrate, Magnesium nitrate
*General Organics calmag+ = Calcium carbonate, Magnesium carbonate, molasses
*Organicare Calplex, Organicare Huvega = Calcium carbonate, Magnesium sulfate(with other various trace minerals, and low molecular weight molecules)

Molasses
Ingredients: sugars, calcium, magnesium, potassium, and it usually has trace amounts of phosphorus, sodium, zinc, copper, manganese, selenium and various vitamins. The amounts of each element as well as the addition of other elements varies between molasses.

Epsom Salt
Ingredients: Magnesium Sulfate(magnesium, sulfur, oxygen)

-----------------------

I wouldn't go as far as to say one is better then the other. They all represent different possibilities for plant nutrition. Hands down calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate(botanicare) are of the most fast acting calmag supplements around but they are completely synthetic and they also contain Nitrogen witch you may not want. That is why people choose calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate for calmag sources. Some will choose magnesium sulfate(epsom salt) since it is absorbs faster then magnesium carbonate and it contains sulfur witch is essential for plant growth.

Now molasses is interesting in the fact that it contains various elements and vitamins. It's not really a stand alone nutrient. It's a carbohydrate supplement, a calmag supplement, and a trace mineral supplement. It also helps to chelate nutrients because it contains organic acids.

 

[Seamaiden]

I use molasses and MgSO4, and have used and sometimes still use GO's Cal-Mag+ (also have on hand Sensical, haven't used it in a while), and in my opinion you can't really use enough molasses to cover some girls' needs for Ca/Mg using it and MgSO4. Molasses is really better used at very low doses, which would preclude using it as a nutrient or supplement. My preferred method for making up needed Ca/Mg (I grow in coco) is a 6%Ca + MgSO4, which allows me to give each on alternating feedings, which can allow feeding other nutrients at higher levels. It also has allowed me to tease apart reading Mg and Ca deficiencies and treat accordingly.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Hey all

Don't know if you're still monitoring this thread, but I have a few questions about CalMag...

So I use RO water on my seedlings, but just read that this is actually too much of a good thing. Since there is chloramine in my town's water I want to keep using RO. So my question is can I use CaMg+ on my seedlings, and can I use it at label strength? Every time I water?

Thanks!

 

[Seamaiden]

That depends as much on what they're growing in as anything else. If it's not well-amended soil (good soil will already have a good amount of Ca and Mg in it and available for plant uptake) then if you're using very clean RO water, I would use supplemental Ca and Mg.

As for the strength, that again depends on some different factors. I always look to the plant to tell me if it's happy with what's going on FIRST. Seedlings have a lot of energy already stored up inside and you can cause problems by offering food too early, too. If it's growing in rockwool or coco coir, though, I know in coco you should add back the Ca & Mg. Rate is dependent again on what the plant is telling you (read: me), but I usually start with half-dose or lower, then work up from there.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Thanks Seamaiden! Yes, I am ten days in on soil (potting soil amended with perlite, vermiculite, and composted manure), and had intended to let the seedlings run on water alone for the first two weeks. But they started developing striped yellowing on their lowest leaves, which I was told was a likely CaMg deficiency. It jibed with the fact that I was using RO water, too, so I went with it.

This morning, however, those leaves are pretty much bleaching out completely. The tops look great on a couple and just fair on the other three. So maybe they are sucking N from the first leaves, and I should start the nutes a little early?

Sorry for all the silly questions - this is my first time, and reading the plants is definitely a skill I haven't developed yet. I can tell that they're not happy, but as for exactly why... Anyway, thanks for your assist! Any advice is helpful, particularly coming from someone with as many posts as you.

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh, my... well, the interveinal chlorosis, especially on lower leaves of a plant that's growing vigorously, generally indicate a need for magnesium, not calcium. This is assuming, however, that it's not a demand for more nitrogen, as you've guessed. Without seeing the plant in question, I'm going to land on nitrogen.

There are a couple of ways you can attack the growth and feeding issues. My own advice for you, being so new, is to simply top-dress 1-2tablespoons of dolomitic lime (aka agricultural lime). That will provide CaCO3 and MgCO3. Along with it a top-dressing of worm castings would offer the plant what I like to call "soft" nitrogen, which just means that it's a low dose that the plants take up fairly readily and seem to 'enjoy' (they respond well).

Doing that, you can continue to use the RO water, but don't have to worry about mixing up Cal-Mag or being concerned with how much, the plant will use what it needs from what's provided in the soil.

Btw, post count, or lack thereof, isn't an indicator of relative knowledge, just a proclivity for posting on the internet. :giggle

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Point well taken on Seamaiden's First Rule of Post Counts, but your wisdom is more than evident to begin with (Who but the wise would espouse your post count theory in the first place? HaHA gotcha!). As for everyone else on the interwebs, I'll keep it in mind.

I am about to transplant the seedlings in any case, as they're in little 3x3 peat pots and probably need more room right about now. I will DEFINITELY put the recommended dolomite lime into the new mix. Predictably I got way ahead of myself in starting the seeds when I did, and even though I read a whole book about cultivation I was (AM!) woefully uneducated when it came to several key things. I just read about the buffering aspect of lime a few days ago, and with the added boosts of Ca/Mg it sounds like it's one of those universal helpers for soil gardening. I'm kinda bummed that I didn't pick up on it when I started. But since I haven't killed my children off even so, I suppose it all qualifies as a happy learning experience.

I would be happy to post a picture for you if you'd be interested in taking a peek. However, I did notice that your personal photolibrary is, uhhh, decidedly lacking in potential courtroom evidence. Have you heard of complications arising for people who post photos here?

Okay, off to apply the lime top dressing even before I mix up the soil for transplanting. If it's not too much to ask, can you critique my coming soil mix? I'm shooting for 50% potting soil/ 30% perlite/ 10% each vermiculite and castings. I will cut out the manure as I've heard from several sources that it can create problems. I will add a cup of dolomite lime and 2 Tbsp of mycorrhizae per cu.ft. of mix. I also have blood meal and bone meal, but am unsure about putting them in the soil or just making teas as needed. I'm not at all emotionally tied to ANY of the above ingredients, so feel free to blast away.

Again, thank you SO MUCH for your advice. I've added to your reputation as a further gesture, even if it's not as good as sending you cookies.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

BTW, I should also point out that I'm still on 24hr lighting.

Should I just stop paying so much attention to the calendar, make the switch to vegetative, and get the show on the road?

 

[Seamaiden]

No complications, Donny, I just don't want *my* photos plastered with the farm's logo. I upload pix into specific threads when I remember, feel the need, or whatever.

I don't use vermiculite, I hate the stuff. It holds onto water like a mofo. But if you're in a dry area or need that water-holding capability, keep it in there. I would decrease the ratio of perlite, too, or get rid of it altogether in favor of rice or peanut hulls (I use rice hulls) as they're not only a fraction of the cost of perlite, they're renewable and sustainable as an agricultural byproduct. Plus, they add potassium silicate as they decompose. Still, I'm not sure I would make my soil mix comprised of 30% rice hulls, that's an awful lot and I'd rather have that be minerals (dolomite lime, azomite, greensand, soft rock phosphate, that sort of stuff) and food sources for the microbes I'm going to guess you plan on culturing.

If it were my potting soil, it would be more like 70% potting soil + 20% castings + 10% rice hulls, with amendments added in for richness, smoothness and flavor. And so I get a cookie.

You should know that if you inoculate with those microbes, first it takes a good while for them to become established, and that you can kill them if you proceed to use chemical salt-based fertilizers at too strong a strength (basically, make sure no value of NPK is over 10%).

It's been so long since I've had a cookie.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

I'm linking over to my introduction, Seamaiden - kinda feel bad for turning this thread into a Newbie Hijack scenario. However, I would love to continue the conversation if you're so inclined!

 

[treehugger]

I don't use vermiculite, I hate the stuff. It holds onto water like a mofo. But if you're in a dry area or need that water-holding capability, keep it in there. I would decrease the ratio of perlite, too, or get rid of it altogether in favor of rice or peanut hulls (I use rice hulls) as they're not only a fraction of the cost of perlite, they're renewable and sustainable as an agricultural byproduct. Plus, they add potassium silicate as they decompose. Still, I'm not sure I would make my soil mix comprised of 30% rice hulls, that's an awful lot and I'd rather have that be minerals (dolomite lime, azomite, greensand, soft rock phosphate, that sort of stuff) and food sources for the microbes I'm going to guess you plan on culturing.

Vermiculite is way too hazardous for my health to use for any reason, and i deal with perlite with much respect and clean lung mentality. However, natural is not always better, and considering the state of the US Peanut industry i would read this link before considering the peanut hull option...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3760459

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Wild. Thanks for that spinoff reading assignment. Who says you can't learn anything from drug use?!

Apparently aflatoxin has a history of contaminating pot in itself, not to mention the various crops and media it can be found in. On the one hand it sounds like it is virtually omnipresent - The FDA even has standards for it in human, pet, and livestock feeds - so why be paranoid? On the other hand, why do anything to invite it? Chalk up another point for aeroponics. In the meantime I'll cross my fingers and stick to my silty clay loam, with rice hulls if I can find em!

As for the vermiculite and perlite, those are also good points. If I have to choose between mesothilioma and aflatoxin, I think I'll take the latter.