Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

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justanotherbozo

justanotherbozo

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Capulator said:
Wazzup bozo!
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same, same, you know how it is bro, the days sometimes kinda blend together, like it's monteuwedthufrissday or something, ...at my age every day is a good day, lol.

...and thanks for asking, i appreciate the acknowledgement of my presence, lol, i'm a pretty small fish in a pretty big pond.

peace, bozo
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

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On the Jacks hydro website they say to place stock solutions inside of a light proof container for long term storage. They do not specify any shelf life term. Although I'd speculate that as long as water is not allowed to escape the container then the salts should stay in solution indefinitely
 
GR33NL3AF

GR33NL3AF

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Fresh Starts said:
On the Jacks hydro website they say to place stock solutions inside of a light proof container for long term storage. They do not specify any shelf life term. Although I'd speculate that as long as water is not allowed to escape the container then the salts should stay in solution indefinitely
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FS, during your research have you come across any information to dis credit this statment?

"Magnesium Nitrate is 100% water soluble fertilizer."

The maximum amount of Sulfur or sulfates you can have is 2%. Anything over 2% will nuke your bennies. Botanicare is smart and they placed it exactly right at 2%.

"In this case, a minimum of three tanks is required. Calcium nitrate is incompatible with both MAP and Magnesium sulfate."
I can find many other sources that say Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate are incompatible.
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/fertilizer-stock-solutions
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

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Just a quick google search has yielded the following:
"Some of the simple ionic salt compounds of fertilizers have a very long if not indefinite shelf life. But others such as ferrous salts can oxidize to ferric salts when exposed to air. More complex molecular compounds like iron EDTA, vitamins, or hormones can gradually break down when exposed to air, light or heat. In general you can assume that an unopened package will be good for perhaps 5 years if stored in a cool dark place, and much less after it has been opened."

Found this on an orchid forum and it is by no means a substitute for hard scientific data. It should be assimilated at your own risk.;)
 
Delerium

Delerium

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I know with Amhydro you can keep for 6 months at least when you premix.
Then you can dilute to a doser concentration.
CC said their CS line in a diluted state claimed 2 weeks. (Sure the same is going to be for Canna as well)
CS, I found that the Bloom A falls out a bit, the B and Uc roots don't. The bud booster slightly and Calmag falls out like a mofo.
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

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Blend X said:
Let's cut to heart of the matter. What we are trying to do with nutrients of any kind is to hit a pre-selected set of values in parts per million for each critical growth element. In other words, cannabis grows best with X ppm of Nitrogen, Y ppm of Phosphorus, Z ppm of Potassium, etc. etc. The numbers for desirable ppm of each element can be found in many growbooks. Simply staying within recommended ranges for ppm's will automatically coincide with those favorable ratios some posters suggest. I have been creating my own hydroponic cannabis blends since 1991 using soluble inorganic salts and I have refined it into a user friendly form. There is a vegetative formula and a flowering formula and they are not interchangeable. They are distinctly different blends and ratios. One of the characteristics of many store bought brands of nutrients is an ammonic vs. nitrate ratio that is out of whack. If the ammonic exceeds 25% of the total N ppm, then you will get those buds that do not burn well as well as brittle stems. Excess ammonic nitrogen is the biggest sin in growing that no one talks about.
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It sounds like you have much experience in mixing fertilizer for cannabis. Would you care to share any of you're nutrient profiles for the community to review?
 
B

Blend X

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Fresh Starts said:
It sounds like you have much experience in mixing fertilizer for cannabis. Would you care to share any of you're nutrient profiles for the community to review?
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Cannabis nutrient profiles are available in Mel Frank's "Insider's Guide". It takes a little bit of reading between the lines but the info is there. There are probably thousands of different combinations of inorganic salts that you could use to create a cannabis hydroponic nutrient but they would all work similarly as long as a few basic rules of chemistry are adhered to. The most important rule is to avoid mixing calcium, phosphates, and sulphates in concentration. For instance, never mix calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate together for long term storage. The waters of crystallization will turn this mixture into a block of cement in a few months. Next, the 25% limit for ammonic N (aka NH4) has to be observed or the bud will be hard to light and burn like a charcoal briquette. Too many formulas fail to take this 25% rule seriously. The bud looks fine and has nice trichomes even when exceeding the 25% rule but if it doesn't burn right, the stuff is worthless as marijuana. Nice for wax or kief but forget rolling joints.
 
B

Blend X

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seaslug, you are good to go on the NO3 vs. NH4. Now all you have to do is dial in your specific nutrient profile of ppms for each particular element and there are at least a dozen. I haven't bought any commercial nutrients in quite some time so I am unfamiliar with all the latest products. This Jack's stuff sounds OK but having to supplement it with other things is kind of a pain if you ask me. The reason I am on this thread in the first place is that I was curious to see if there is a complete cannabis hydro nutrient on the market yet that could compete with making your own from basic inorganic salts. While calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate are not that expensive to buy, you apparently must have them to complete the Jack formula for cannabis. It all goes back to the specific profile of elements proposed in Mel Frank's book. Each individual element should be in a specific range, no more and no less. How you get there with the bagged or bottled stuff is quite a task. The math to get there is simple but there is a lot of it. If you can do this kind of math (addition, subtraction, multiply, divide, fractions, and ratios) then you might as well be making your own from base components. It presents the same level of difficulty and complexity but you will be rewarded with a more precise formula at a price maybe 3/4 to 1/2 of Jack's.
 
connoisseurde420

connoisseurde420

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I'm going to switch to Jack's after I finish up my ph perfect :/ I have been looking for alternatives and this seems like a good starting point before mixing my own nutrients gonna search and see if I can find anyone using them in promix. Time to make the jump.
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

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Blend X said:
seaslug, you are good to go on the NO3 vs. NH4. Now all you have to do is dial in your specific nutrient profile of ppms for each particular element and there are at least a dozen. I haven't bought any commercial nutrients in quite som noe time so I am unfamiliar with all the latest products. This Jack's stuff sounds OK but having to supplement it with other things is kind of a pain if you ask me. The reason I am on this thread in the first place is that I was curious to see if there is a complete cannabis hydro nutrient on the market yet that could compete with making your own from basic inorganic salts. While calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate are not that expensive to buy, you apparently must have them to complete the Jack formula for cannabis. It all goes back to the specific profile of elements proposed in Mel Frank's book. Each individual element should be in a specific range, no more and no less. How you get there with the bagged or bottled stuff is quite a task. The math to get there is simple but there is a lot of it. If you can do this kind of math (addition, subtraction, multiply, divide, fractions, and ratios) then you might as well be making your own from base components. It presents the same level of difficulty and complexity but you will be rewarded with a more precise formula at a price maybe 3/4 to 1/2 of Jack's.
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Good points in that post. Mixing nutrient salts deserves its own thread and its the best cheap alternative there is out there- but let's not forget the steep learning curve and the lack of accessibility to the average consumer who needs fertilizer that works right a way.

Jacks hydro is a good formula designed to be a simple 2 part dry mix, but completely understanding how it works can still prove challenging to even experienced growers- including myself.


The end goal for myself is to mix custom fertilizer salts and jacks hydro is a great way to be introduced to the concept.
 
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GR33NL3AF

GR33NL3AF

1,904
263
Blend X said:
seaslug, you are good to go on the NO3 vs. NH4. Now all you have to do is dial in your specific nutrient profile of ppms for each particular element and there are at least a dozen. I haven't bought any commercial nutrients in quite some time so I am unfamiliar with all the latest products. This Jack's stuff sounds OK but having to supplement it with other things is kind of a pain if you ask me. The reason I am on this thread in the first place is that I was curious to see if there is a complete cannabis hydro nutrient on the market yet that could compete with making your own from basic inorganic salts. While calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate are not that expensive to buy, you apparently must have them to complete the Jack formula for cannabis. It all goes back to the specific profile of elements proposed in Mel Frank's book. Each individual element should be in a specific range, no more and no less. How you get there with the bagged or bottled stuff is quite a task. The math to get there is simple but there is a lot of it. If you can do this kind of math (addition, subtraction, multiply, divide, fractions, and ratios) then you might as well be making your own from base components. It presents the same level of difficulty and complexity but you will be rewarded with a more precise formula at a price maybe 3/4 to 1/2 of Jack's.
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Have you looked into this product yet? http://www.hydroponic-research.com/our-products/
 
GR33NL3AF

GR33NL3AF

1,904
263
justanotherbozo said:
...for that kind of money i think i'll stick to my Jack's thank you very much.

peace, bozo
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buddahslave said:
Seems a bit expensive! Am I missing something?
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Fresh Starts said:
Not too convinced about what they're selling but what is interesting to me is that they have services like water analysis, custom blends, and you can even get you're own custom blend with private label on it (minimum 4400 Lb order). I'm not seeing tissue analysis and that's a bummer. Product is too expenive , bozo was right.
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There are 2 separate threads dedicated to this products quality.. Check them out.
 
B

Blend X

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This is just a guess but hydroponic research must have a proprietary milling process that prevents the calcium from bonding with sulphur or phosphorus. Normally, it is not advisable to combine these elements for long term storage. This company must have solved this problem but it is probably an expensive process. A one part formula is a great thing but convenience costs money. If you are a hobby grower, convenience is worth a lot. If you are a commercial grower, you are better off with Jack's.
 
B

Blend X

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FYI: the preferred form of magnesium sulphate is the mono-hydrate version, not the hepta-hydrate. The drug store stuff will work in a pinch but it is not for regular hydroponic use.
 
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