Closed Column Extractors Agitation?

[waxman]

Hi everyone!
I have a interesting topic up for discussion. This has bothered me every since I used a Closed Column Extractor. The idea intrigued me so I bought one, supposedly you can pack your material, pull a vac on it, introduce your solvent through a can or hose with can tap or directly from N-Butane tank. (only with S/S braided PTFE lined hose for N-Butane or can tap). So, after you pulled your vac. Introduce the solvent and let it soak for the desired time you want. (they suggest no more than 30min.). Anyway, you open your bottom valve to release the pressurized oil from the Column. I have hit 30 pounds with mine. My column is 1.5" tri-clamp. The dump valve has a barbed end that is 1/4". As far as I have seen, when you release the oil through the 1/4" barb it is under great pressure. You have to be careful when opening your valve because if you open fast or all the way it will blow your product everywhere.. In my opinion this is A LOT of agitation going on during your dump. I can tell by the way the product looks when done this way.
This may be why you are having some issues @Dbritish1 w/ Shatter?
I would like to know if this is an issue with Closed Columns? Or do I over think to much?
Thanks!

 

[waxman]

Hi everyone!
I have a interesting topic up for discussion. This has bothered me every since I used a Closed Column Extractor. The idea intrigued me so I bought one, supposedly you can pack your material, pull a vac on it, introduce your solvent through a can or hose with can tap or directly from N-Butane tank. (only with S/S braided PTFE lined hose for N-Butane or can tap). So, after you pulled your vac. Introduce the solvent and let it soak for the desired time you want. (they suggest no more than 30min.). Anyway, you open your bottom valve to release the pressurized oil from the Column. I have hit 30 pounds with mine. My column is 1.5" tri-clamp. The dump valve has a barbed end that is 1/4". As far as I have seen, when you release the oil through the 1/4" barb it is under great pressure. You have to be careful when opening your valve because if you open fast or all the way it will blow your product everywhere.. In my opinion this is A LOT of agitation going on during your dump. I can tell by the way the product looks when done this way.
This may be why you are having some issues @Dbritish1 w/ Shatter?
I would like to know if this is an issue with Closed Columns? Or do I over think to much?
Thanks!View attachment 589496

Just a note. I am NOT blasting on Parchment. I just sat it there after I finished my run into Pyrex.

 

[gumby420]

as far as i know nucleation only happens when most of the solvent is out, so when your oil is coming out of the bottom of the tube theres still way too much butane in it for it to nucleate and cause auto budder. if youre oil was coming out at 80-90* it might be a different story

 

[waxman]

as far as i know nucleation only happens when most of the solvent is out, so when your oil is coming out of the bottom of the tube theres still way too much butane in it for it to nucleate and cause auto budder. if youre oil was coming out at 80-90* it might be a different story

I'm not sure on the nucleation of the oil? Read this from Kallisti Gold Extracts.
What nucleation is. When something(like a crystal) forms around a point. Example: clouds, water droplets in the form of rain, and the ice crystals that forms snow nucleate are moisture that nucleates around dust particles in the atmosphere.

Saying that budder nucleates or that nucleation is occurring doesn't really tell anyone much because nucleation itself is a broad term that can apply to non-crystals.

What is going on is called pseudo polymorphism. Shatter is a monocrystal; this means that the molecules of cannabinoids, terpenes, and other lipid fractions are in a perfectly repeating pattern. Shatter is transparent because light can pass through it with out bending much.

Budder is a polycrystal. The pattern has broken into small chunks. IT's opaque because light bends too many times though all the tiny crystal structures.

Some terpenes act as interfering agents; they allow your shatter to be stable and "shattery" via how they fit into the pattern.

Too much moisture, too much energy input(heat and/or agitation) or molecules that don't"fit" well will disrupt the crystalline matrix and cause what is commonly known as "auto buddering."
Thoughts on this?

 

[gumby420]

it seems in our industry nucleation is thrown around a lot since its such an umbrella term. if i say nucleation i basically am just saying agitation until the point it turns to polycrystal (or auto budder in our industry).
lets say you blasted into a mason jar, if you whipped the oil in the mason jar right after blasting nothing would happen because there is too much solvent, if you waited until the majority of solvent was evaporated and then whipped you would see auto buddering.
i have used closed column tubes for years and i know how much pressure they can have coming out, i still make nothing but shatter. its all about low temps in the oven for me. if im above 90* im going to have stuff start to auto budder

 

[waxman]

it seems in our industry nucleation is thrown around a lot since its such an umbrella term. if i say nucleation i basically am just saying agitation until the point it turns to polycrystal (or auto budder in our industry).
lets say you blasted into a mason jar, if you whipped the oil in the mason jar right after blasting nothing would happen because there is too much solvent, if you waited until the majority of solvent was evaporated and then whipped you would see auto buddering.
i have used closed column tubes for years and i know how much pressure they can have coming out, i still make nothing but shatter. its all about low temps in the oven for me. if im above 90* im going to have stuff start to auto budder

I personally do not have the problem with auto-buddering. I started this thread for a friend who can not make anything but budder. I have used mine 20 or more times with no Auto-Buddering. It makes logical sense what you are saying! I agree totally. I was concerned initially, because of all the crap on other forums.
Graywolf put that to bed for me. High temps and agitation after evaporation of the Tane is the main culprit in my opinion. (as you stated) Thank you for your feedback! It is much appreciated! Cheers!

 

[Graywolf]

Hi everyone!
I have a interesting topic up for discussion. This has bothered me every since I used a Closed Column Extractor. The idea intrigued me so I bought one, supposedly you can pack your material, pull a vac on it, introduce your solvent through a can or hose with can tap or directly from N-Butane tank. (only with S/S braided PTFE lined hose for N-Butane or can tap). So, after you pulled your vac. Introduce the solvent and let it soak for the desired time you want. (they suggest no more than 30min.). Anyway, you open your bottom valve to release the pressurized oil from the Column. I have hit 30 pounds with mine. My column is 1.5" tri-clamp. The dump valve has a barbed end that is 1/4". As far as I have seen, when you release the oil through the 1/4" barb it is under great pressure. You have to be careful when opening your valve because if you open fast or all the way it will blow your product everywhere.. In my opinion this is A LOT of agitation going on during your dump. I can tell by the way the product looks when done this way.
This may be why you are having some issues @Dbritish1 w/ Shatter?
I would like to know if this is an issue with Closed Columns? Or do I over think to much?
Thanks!View attachment 589496

Propensity to budder/Wax is a function of the extracts contents.

A 30 minute soak in a closed column, without using subzero butane will most likely have a fair amount of plant waxes included, and maybe even small amounts of chlorophyll.

Both of those will add to the propensity to auto budder, by acting as points of nucleation. If you break up the points of nucleation by mechanical means, the individual pieces all become points of nucleation, so you end up with a higher number of smaller grains

Agitation when the constituents are fully dissolved has little effect, it is after they begin to precipitate out of solution, as their concentration increases beyond their solubility in the remaining solvent, that they form points of nucleation.

My experiments with closed columns led me to a closed loop system where I can pass more subzero butane through the material without soaking, to avoid plant wax pickup.

 

[waxman]

Propensity to budder/Wax is a function of the extracts contents.

A 30 minute soak in a closed column, without using subzero butane will most likely have a fair amount of plant waxes included, and maybe even small amounts of chlorophyll.

Both of those will add to the propensity to auto budder, by acting as points of nucleation. If you break up the points of nucleation by mechanical means, the individual pieces all become points of nucleation, so you end up with a higher number of smaller grains

Agitation when the constituents are fully dissolved has little effect, it is after they begin to precipitate out of solution, as their concentration increases beyond their solubility in the remaining solvent, that they form points of nucleation.

My experiments with closed columns led me to a closed loop system where I can pass more subzero butane through the material without soaking, to avoid plant wax pickup.

Thank you so much Graywolf for helping yet again to clarify the topic!
We all appreciate your contributions to the research and development of this fast growing industry!
Again, I am reminded why I love this site!
Thank you!

 

[Graywolf]

You're welcome! Please pay it forward, by adding your own insights and passing it on.....................

I wait with bait on my breath to see where this rabbit hole takes us!

 

[waxman]

You're welcome! Please pay it forward, by adding your own insights and passing it on.....................

I wait with bait on my breath to see where this rabbit hole takes us!

Indeed! I will provide any insights that I may have learned during my endeavors. Sharing is caring!
I my friend have gained valuable knowledge from this forum and your company! I joined to expand my mind and capabilities, Along with sharing what I do know about Growing and Concentrates. God speed! Cheers!