Great topic thanks.. sub'ed

Cubing does have its uses in breeding, however stabilizing all or most of the traits of a given clone is not one of them, and this is where most novice breeders make deadly mistakes.

FidelCastro said:

I respect all this biobotanical pseudo academic talk, but its practical value for breeding is nil. Certainly backcrossing is NOT A MYTH, because anybody that actually does it quickly finds out that CUBING WORKS. You will not obtain a "perfectly stabilized" plant, but backcrossing DOES SUCCEED in creating a seedline out of an outstanding individual. Why?

Because in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

And since I assume that most people come to this site not as amateur armchair botanists but as farmers or hands-on breeders looking for results, you only need to know that backcrossing does work. It may not be "science" but it is a valid technique, which has the enormous advantage of giving you RESULTS regardless if the "science" has an explanation for your success or not.

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Interesting, yes it is a small detail that it doesn't really matter if you are only shooting for a broad similar genetic makeup. But it is not what should be considered "breeding" or whatever term desired. Like said by Hempire which is what I was thinking in my head while reading the first part of the thread. It would be beneficial to first run your F1 cross to stabilize the traits you desire than Backcrossing/Cubing to your selected keeper.

And just to add my other thought right now before I forget. The point of breeding is blending or incorporating two or more desired traits of separate plants ect. The notion of starting from a clone only strain is without a doubt a waste of time for any serious genetic breeding.

Like was stated earlier in the thread genetic makeup doesn't make you get your desired traits due to the dominant/recessive Aa/Bb structure of gentic heritage each receiving 1 cell from each the mother and father, genetic crossover like shoelaces. Also the number of different M/F donors for each trait. It is best just to see what you like and try to preserve it IMO if your not into a serious program.

Also another thought, why would I want a "breeders" seeds if I will only find 1 or 2 plants worth keeping? Why is he called a breeder if he didn't do any work?

It just speaks to the weak genetic heritage that was started with and that there might be work to be done to "preserve" the genetic makeup but to me it is a waste of time.

Personally, I have crossed vanilluna with Purple panama than crossed it with Pakistan citral kush and am identifying two different lines a sativa dominant and one indica. But it will keep me busy for a long time. The smoke I got off it was incredible resin with a soaring high. Didn't do a cure for other reasons. This is just to show my genetic heritage. I didn't find any plants that were not worth "keeping" due to it's makeup. Just choose the best traits I like and preserve. Hide your work in waterproof bags in trees in the woods as backup.

Texas Kid said:

He has some gems out there if ya look, one smart cat........I actually think he writes alot of stuff but I think it is on a super brianiac botany site that is all advanced degree folks and professors in botony and genetics and has nothing to do with cannabis.

I will have to find some of the others

Tex

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I too have a lot of time on my hands. Today I am doing some surfing on THCfarmer. What a neat way to discuss a .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Back crossing wont make plants perfectly stable.
But nothing will.
Not even the clone seed / retail tissue cultures he's going to sell with that promise.

With S1s you know your mother has the traits you desire
then you make her pollinate herself, an your plants should resemble your mother.

But when you breed f1s you don't know what traits your male will have.
Cause you haven't seen him as a female or if his offspring will carry desired traits as dominate.

wow realy good info in this thread, lots to read

Texas Kid said:

He has some gems out there if ya look, one smart cat........I actually think he writes alot of stuff but I think it is on a super brianiac botany site that is all advanced degree folks and professors in botony and genetics and has nothing to do with cannabis.

I will have to find some of the others

Tex

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Most of us science-y folk do this (post all our fun stuff on science forums).

I post here almost exclusively because cannabis chemistry is not welcome at my science "you-dig"--and it represents one of my biggest interests (both as a hobbyist, and professionally).

I've definitely posted some stuff at chemistry forums that people here might find useful--but those people would be far and few between which is why you don't see any of it here. Most times I get super science-y here, I find myself accused of playing the pedant--or locked in heated debates with kitchen-chemists.

I imagine if Chimera came around and bucked the notions many of us here probably hold dearly with regard to genetics--he'd be lynch mobbed out of town :)

I think that's because when we compare science with these forums--the methodologies are very different.

Science is a synthesis of "just the facts ma'am."

Forums are a synthesis of everything. Science, experience, gut feelings, ideologies, superstitions, and just plain wrong ideas at times.

The former is often times more specific--and orders of magnitude more difficult to understand. I've taken two genetics classes and my head spins reading the original post of this thread (I understand it, but holy crap--the complexity is baffling).

The latter is very often less specific as it goes to the whys and much much much more specific as to the whats and hows.
These two things can find themselves in conflict to the point where it becomes frustrating to reconcile the two as a practitioner of science, and simply more fun to separate them.

I think that you can find novel things, and that in fact you have a hotbed for scientific ideas in a forum like this one--but by that same right sometimes arguing them here, or delineating a new scientific answer, can be difficult if you find yourself questioning something the community-at-large has been doing for a long time.

It's sort of how Chimera mentioned--sometimes we like things to be easy, when they are in fact very hard. We want things to be digestible rather than defined over several various levels of complexity.

This post goes a long way to bringing that out into the open. How many arguments do you think people have had over this issue (perhaps even at this forum), or issues affected by it, wherein both parties hadn't the foggiest what they were talking about?

This is why it's more important to know about how to ask the right questions than it is to always know all the answers--as if anyone could to begin with.

LORD HAVE MERCY!!! BOOM BOOM BOOM!!!!:)

Keep the science coming.

I love this place and all you nerdy science folks. just reading these forums should be enough mental exercise to keep alzheimer's at bay. Might help to fire one up while Im at it though. ;)

PnL

OhTHEiRonee, how much we express the love of the plant but try so hard to pinpoint or isolate or however word you use .
I love an embrace the plethora of what one would call instability ....

Everything is perpetually changing; change is the only truth.
Just try to change,for the better of us all.
Change,will never change;it is the only omnipresence.
So lets change plants,for the good of ourselves and the world!

Awareness is the fourth dimension.
We need diversity of stability.
Diversity,for being able to produce full potential in changing conditions.
Stability of potencey,through the diverse range of genetic make up,so that we have a desirable end product,no matter what the conditions.
Nothing is seperate;things happen at the same time;ever changing.never changing.

Burning Bush said:

Awareness is the fourth dimension.
We need diversity of stability.
Diversity,for being able to produce full potential in changing conditions.
Stability of potencey,through the diverse range of genetic make up,so that we have a desirable end product,no matter what the conditions.
Nothing is seperate;things happen at the same time;ever changing.never changing.

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Are you sure you're not Gary Busey?

...o_Owho dat?

...still here Sqiggs!

Burning Bush said:

Awareness is the fourth dimension.
We need diversity of stability.
Diversity,for being able to produce full potential in changing conditions.
Stability of potencey,through the diverse range of genetic make up,so that we have a desirable end product,no matter what the conditions.
Nothing is seperate;things happen at the same time;ever changing.never changing.

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Ya! I call the ones like that from my grows survivor pheno....I used to set up a bucket called Battle of the Clones and it was full of recycled dirt and I would take twenty cuttings and stick em in dirt and maybe three would take and they would rock

So is the Brother's Grimm story of C99 total bullshit?