Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

IcloudA · Sep 1, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
I ran 3 different known cuttings 3 times (well 6 total) with one defoliated to different degrees and the other no leaves removed at all and every time all 3 with all their leaves grew more bud.

In fact all the most potent plants I have grown had little or no issues from the start to finish amd had all their leaves. Even the new starter singles from sprout.

I tested all kinds of stuff with those cuttings.

Most people remove the leafs before they cut the plants and put them to dry... i find it to be much better quality the product when you cut the whole plant with all the leafs and leave them to dry on the plant and then remove them very easy with two fingers after keep drying untill the sticks are easy to brake and remove the buds from the sticks in case still have a lot of humidity in the buds you can put them in paper bags for 24 hours before they start curing in the jar

Dirtbag · Sep 1, 2019

#Allbud #Nofoilage

Bobrown14 · Sep 2, 2019

Dirtbag said:
#Allbud #Nofoilage

How does a plant make bigger, better frostier flowers with less leaves?

I think you're missing the point of what a leaf actually does @Dirtbag.

Leaves do many things and have many functions.

@Dirtbag you mentioned that more leaves create a more humid environment and that somehow is a bad thing. I don't think you have any science to back that up.

Leaves transpire for several reasons. One of which is to maintain the optimal local to the leaf environment. A micro climate right at the leaf surface. The leaves do this so they can perform the primary duty of a leaf and that is to use chlorophyll to produce sugars for the plant to use where and when the plant needs them.

The other major leaf function as mentioned is transpiration. Leaves transpire so that water along with nutrients from the soil thru the roots into the vascular system bring nutrients and water the plants need to grow and survive. Less transpiration, less plant biomass including flowers. This is science.

Your argument, less leaves bigger flowers is flawed.

Dirtbag · Sep 2, 2019

Bobrown14 said:
How does a plant make bigger, better frostier flowers with less leaves?

I think you're missing the point of what a leaf actually does @Dirtbag.

Leaves do many things and have many functions.

@Dirtbag you mentioned that more leaves create a more humid environment and that somehow is a bad thing. I don't think you have any science to back that up.

Leaves transpire for several reasons. One of which is to maintain the optimal local to the leaf environment. A micro climate right at the leaf surface. The leaves do this so they can perform the primary duty of a leaf and that is to use chlorophyll to produce sugars for the plant to use where and when the plant needs them.

The other major leaf function as mentioned is transpiration. Leaves transpire so that water along with nutrients from the soil thru the roots into the vascular system bring nutrients and water the plants need to grow and survive. Less transpiration, less plant biomass including flowers. This is science.

Your argument, less leaves bigger flowers is flawed.

That was a bit of a joke referencing a video series I posted here recently, the guy stripped all the leaves off his plants and kept saying all bud.. all bud... no foilage...

Anyway I dont disagree with anything you're saying. I never said less leaves equals bigger flowers. I said using artificial lighting, selective leaf removal allows better light penetration to the bottom of the canopy if your room is crowded.

I used to run a cycle without pulling any leaves off, but I have since loosened up a bit and do pull some, and have found it to be a benificial practice.

FWIW, I'm not a full on defoliator.. I pull selectively before the flip, and never during active flowering.

This is how my plants look AFTER pulling out a bunch of leaves. Still plenty left for healthy photosynthesis. You can imagine how congested it would be had I not removed some leaves.

And another thing I already run high humidity purposefully, I like to dial my VPD and normally run humidity around 75% in Veg and 60-65 in early flower. Before I pulled some leaves I was struggling to keep it below 80 even with a dehu going. The leaves were so densely packed the fan couldnt adequately circulate the air in the canopy.

MIMedGrower · Sep 2, 2019

Dirtbag said:
#Allbud #Nofoilage

Lol. I missed this comment last night.

Hard Mode!

Dirtbag · Sep 2, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
Lol. I missed this comment last night.

Hard Mode!

Gotta defoliate those hard mode 16 week sativas if you got the all bud pheno.. Anyone can grow an easy mode indeeka.

MIMedGrower · Sep 2, 2019

Dirtbag said:
Gotta defoliate those hard mode 16 week sativas if you got the all bud pheno.. Anyone can grow an easy mode indeeka.

You want All Bud, Bud? There is no easy mode.

Bobrown14 · Sep 2, 2019

@Dirtbag - nice setup you have going there.

I agree thinning out the lower branches that are not going to produce flowers at flip is a good thing.

It does help with air flow. I do it as well. I use a lot of fans and get a lot of air moving in my flower room.

I got fans on the lamps and fans running at the soil line and air exchange I pull from high up at the canopy and output the exhaust outside (with filters of course).

Dirtbag · Sep 2, 2019

Bobrown14 said:
@Dirtbag - nice setup you have going there.

I agree thinning out the lower branches that are not going to produce flowers at flip is a good thing.

It does help with air flow. I do it as well. I use a lot of fans and get a lot of air moving in my flower room.

I got fans on the lamps and fans running at the soil line and air exchange I pull from high up at the canopy and output the exhaust outside (with filters of course).

Thanks man. And yep, airflow is critical when you start packing them in like that. So is keeping enough leaves for photosynthesis. It's a balancing act.

Bobrown14 · Sep 2, 2019

Main reason I remove lower laf is for air flow so the plants can transpire more efficiently.

I don't train for an even canopy.

If my plants are shorties (>3' tall), I won't grow them again.

IF I want short plants I'll grow them in smaller containers. A #4 pot will produce 1/2 of a #8 pot dry trimmed. Same footprint just shorter plant. Its all in the roots.

cemchris · Sep 2, 2019

Dirtbag said:
Gotta defoliate those hard mode 16 week sativas if you got the all bud pheno.. Anyone can grow an easy mode indeeka.

#TODACUPPPPP

Brendan311 · Sep 3, 2019

FatManatee said:
Overall, I'm really happy with this grow, I smashed my goal of achieving 1 gram / watt, using my new "quantum board" lights, and I highly recommend these lights to anyone else.

Discuss, argue, point to me what I did wrong, so I can make better testing in the future.
Thanks for sticking with the ride! :)

Hey FatManatee . (lol!),

Can you tell me more about the 'quantum board' lights you use? Can you send me a link or give me any specifics? I am in dire need of a real light... my first time growing indoors, the 400 watt sodium i got simply wasn't strong enough (got .73 grams/watt) so been doing outdoors instead but want to beable to grow in the winter too... been actively looking at LED's but the results you got are incredible (anything over 1 gram/watt is great is my understanding).

Really appreciate it.

Bobrown14 · Sep 3, 2019

More to it than JUST lights to get over 1 gm/watt.

Gotta have skills and don't mess with the plants like de-foil or whatever you wanna call it.

horticulturelightinggroup.com

GrowersLights.com

I've gotten QB Boards from these 2 sources.

I think they both sell on a-zon too but cheaper (last time I checked) direct.

HLG I think is the source of these lamps but they are always sold out on a lot of the goodness.

Also there are knock offs being sold on alibaba for CHEAP.

Look to the V2 versions on the heatsinks - if you're handy can save buying the "kits" - some assembly required. A few hand tools is all and a bong hit after to celebrate.

Dirtbag · Sep 3, 2019

Bobrown14 said:
More to it than JUST lights to get over 1 gm/watt.

Gotta have skills and don't mess with the plants like de-foil or whatever you wanna call it.

horticulturelightinggroup.com

GrowersLights.com

I've gotten QB Boards from these 2 sources.

I think they both sell on a-zon too but cheaper (last time I checked) direct.

HLG I think is the source of these lamps but they are always sold out on a lot of the goodness.

Also there are knock offs being sold on alibaba for CHEAP.

Look to the V2 versions on the heatsinks - if you're handy can save buying the "kits" - some assembly required. A few hand tools is all and a bong hit after to celebrate.

Yeap, measuring simply lamp wattage and yield, LED is always going to win the gpw battle, especially against a 400w HPS which doesnt have the best penetration compared to say a 600 or 1000w or HLG 550.

Medigrow · Sep 3, 2019

Dirtbag said:
For me there is no question, in a semi crowded grow room looking to optimize yield, a bit of leaf removal is necessary to ensure good airflow, improve light penetration to the bottom of the canopy and even reduce transpiration somewhat to avoid overly humid conditions.

However a plant with plenty of space to grow doesnt have those conditions attached to it, especially outdoors, so leaf removal in that situation is likely counter productive.

Different methods for different circumstances, it's just a tool in the toolbox. I know personally my recent grow required some defoliation just before it went to flower otherwise it would choke itself out. But I dont like to touch the plants or remove anything while they are flowering until the very last week, I pull any yellow or heavily faded leaves off, I feel the bit of stress helps the plants to ripen at that stage, and again lowers transpiration and RH at a point where I want to reduce risk of budrot.

I just removed everything that is under the trellis and not even a stress/halt in their growth, buds a bigger 2 days later :p

Bobrown14 said:
How does a plant make bigger, better frostier flowers with less leaves?

I think you're missing the point of what a leaf actually does @Dirtbag.

Leaves do many things and have many functions.

@Dirtbag you mentioned that more leaves create a more humid environment and that somehow is a bad thing. I don't think you have any science to back that up.

Leaves transpire for several reasons. One of which is to maintain the optimal local to the leaf environment. A micro climate right at the leaf surface. The leaves do this so they can perform the primary duty of a leaf and that is to use chlorophyll to produce sugars for the plant to use where and when the plant needs them.

The other major leaf function as mentioned is transpiration. Leaves transpire so that water along with nutrients from the soil thru the roots into the vascular system bring nutrients and water the plants need to grow and survive. Less transpiration, less plant biomass including flowers. This is science.

Your argument, less leaves bigger flowers is flawed.

Put few leaves all on top of each other and wait few days if you like the micro environment ;)

Dasnip · Sep 4, 2019

Jimster said:
Indoors, some leaf removal is beneficial in my opinion, but a blanket removal of large fan leaves and others isn't beneficial, IMO. The difference lies in the degree of leaf removal. Too much decreases the energy available to the plant for growth, while too little causes a lot of bud sites to be self shading and a low yield except for the canopy. This can be changed by different training methods, but soon you are changing your growing processes too accommodate your earlier changes in growing (leaf removal or not).

this is the result of heavy defoliation

Blueskies272 · Sep 4, 2019

FatManatee said:
I have done A LOT of searching, and as we all know we still haven't got a conclusive answer on whether defoliation is beneficial or not.

Most of the side by side's have been done pretty badly. People have defoliated tall plants that don't even fill out the entire canopy, pretty much negating the point of defoliation in the first place; to improve light penetration to the lower parts of the plant. I mean, if there is plenty of space for the light to bounce down from the sides to the lower parts of the plant, what is the point of defoliating in the 1st place?

From my studies I've come to the conclusion, that defoliation should help in getting higher yields, if there is enough foliage at the bottom of the plant, so that those leaves and bud sites can absorb the light that passes through the top. There should always be enough foliage throughout the plant so that no light is wasted by passing down to the bottom of the grow space and bouncing back up.

Now I plan to test this theory, and find out whether defoliation can increase yields on an extremely bushy plant.

Plants:
- Critical Bilbo, all from clones on a mother plant, age 6 months.
(The person I got these clones from has yielded over 1g/w under a 600w HPS using SCROG method, so the genetics should be pretty good for this test)

Grow setup:
4x Zeus 308 "quantum boards" running at 480w, spectrum 3000K
1x 50 watt, hyper red & far red booster
Total of watts 528, measured from the wall.
Big oscillating fan
1000cfm exhaust (running @700)

Climate:
Day temp: 25-27 celsius
Night temp: 18-19 celsius
Humidity: 40-45%
I will do my best to keep the climate in this range throughout the entire grow

Nutrient schedule & soil:
Guanokalong Complete mix with added perlite of 30% total
Biocanna nutrient line
Canna Boost (not bio)
Soil Balance Pro
Epsom Salts
Worm Castings tea

Vegetative phase & training:
4 weeks
Topped once
Supercropped 5 times
Foliar fed with silicon & Epsom salts in the first 2 weeks

My plan is to defoliate at day 21 of flower, I will be defoliating 3 plants in total, the plants on the right side in the attached pictures.

Right now I just passed the first week of flowering (day 9), so we are gonna have to wait a couple of weeks before the chop. Meanwhile enjoy the pictures ;)

View attachment 847472
View attachment 847473
View attachment 847474

It definitely helps out your yield for sure. It’s difficult to do in the beginning because of the fear of destroying your harvest. Look on Black Dog Leds website or YouTube channel. They explain it much better. Pruning in a way so all your colas are around the same height, also increases your yield. Your plants look amazing man. Great job.

Dasnip · Sep 4, 2019

Blueskies272 said:
It definitely helps out your yield for sure. It’s difficult to do in the beginning because of the fear of destroying your harvest. Look on Black Dog Leds website or YouTube channel. They explain it much better. Pruning in a way so all your colas are around the same height, also increases your yield. Your plants look amazing man. Great job.

Much thanks, we start our drying in about 2 3 wks. Then I amagine 10 20 days till first puff

Dasnip · Sep 4, 2019

Dasnip said:
Much thanks, we start our drying in about 2 3 wks. Then I amagine 10 20 days till first puff

I haven't grown smoke since the 70's. This is my first time since, using only memory of 40 years ago.
TBD , but the shit looks good to me. But what the hell do I know

Dirtbag · Sep 4, 2019

Dasnip said:
View attachment 893223this is the result of heavy defoliation

If I can be completely honest what I see in this pic is a lot of small leaves growing out of the bud trying to compensate for the lack of foliage elsewhere. This mirrors the results I got the one time I tried heavy defoliation. I got buds that were more spongy than usual and they had tons of small leaves growing out of the bud exactly like that pic.

I find there is a point you can strip a plant to before this happens, and it's a fine line. I always err on the side of caution and leave on a few more than I think I need.

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

IcloudA

Dirtbag

Bobrown14

Dirtbag

MIMedGrower

Dirtbag

MIMedGrower

Bobrown14

Dirtbag

Bobrown14

cemchris

Brendan311

Bobrown14

Dirtbag

Medigrow

Dasnip

Blueskies272

Dasnip

Dasnip

Dirtbag

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency