Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

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I would argue the that plants have the ability to translocate sugars that are made from photosynthesis with chlorophyll to parts of the plant where they need that food the most.

Flowers are not the main source of these sugars made with photosynthesis. Fan leaves are the main source.




Nice bush - why do you defoil?

Where did you get the idea from to take off all the fan leaves?
i’ve read a lot about defoliation for general gardening, and it makes sense for pot - i typically leave fan leaves on the outside and around the top the longest, then yank them before last few weeks of flowering - appears to not have any negative consequences in my climate. the shock seems to strengthen the grow imho, along with high stress training (literally snapped every branch on that plant up top ages ago)

the plant gets amazing airflow and full sun coverage in the flowering stage along with nutrients and water, also still has a lot of leaves if you get up close - i just cut all the spiny branches with baby buds before flowering to clean out the middle

also makes harvesting a bit easier
 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

25kw solar man that's huge we can't get that big here yet I've got 6.5kw solar I can upgrade to 10kw for an extra $10,000 which would probably bring my power bill down to $50 a month. Don't have a lazy 10 G lying round though but if I did would more likely go into an indoor grow set up. 😁
25kW is the max then we have to start down another path with generation and get a generating license with insurance and all that bs. Forgetabout it.

Here's the weird thing. The electric company installed an outdoor light on a pole on our property and installed a 150W hps lamp on it ffs. I have to pay $30/month for the pole and the electricity then I have to pay $15/ month for the "delivery" fee. So my bill is like $45 and thats the best it will get. Then I get credits for my over generation. In Jan-March I'll likely use some extra that my credit will pay for. We have geothermal heat and cooling too. The pump for that uses a lot of power as do the professional air handling units.
At the end of the day, compared to our previous home we gonna be WAY ahead with the cost of heating cooling and lighting specially with an indoor grow with lights on during the day. My current space I'm using about 2000watts for VEG and Flower. We generate 10x that during a mostly sunny day. 10-3 I'm +20K watts. Found out that the folks that build the system paid $87K for the solar with salt water batteries. The panels are in a field outta sight.

I think the people that lived there were growing. They had to have been. It's overkill for normal living. Complete indoor environmental control too with dehumidifier, and humidifiers in the air units built in.

I would not have bought the place if not for the solar and geo.


solar battery.jpg



Solar array but thats only part of it there are 2 banks of panels like that in the pic. The other bank is behind it.

solar arrays.jpg
 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

i’ve read a lot about defoliation for general gardening, and it makes sense for pot - i typically leave fan leaves on the outside and around the top the longest, then yank them before last few weeks of flowering -
Well the plant gets its energy to build flowers from the old fan leaves that turn into energy supplies for the flowers.

Why do those fan leaves turn yellow, IF you leave them on the plant?

The reason is this, chlorophyll (the green stuff) in the leaves is stored energy in the form of several different sugars that the leaves create during photosynthesis. The plants will later on as the leaf matures, use up that stored energy to create FLOWERS and seeds.

So by taking off all the fan leaves where does the plant now get the energy to produce flowers?

The plant "might" look to the roots but that isn't how the plant gets energy to produce flowers. It does that with photosynthesis. here's the cool part, due to the location of the fan leaves - take a look should be located right where the leaf stem meets the plant stem there's a stem shooting out right there and that new stem is where the flowers are.

So the energy goes into the fan leaf down the leaf stem then up the stem into the flower. That process is called translocation.

Roots do not create sugars the plant needs to grow flowers. This is ONLY done is the leaves.

Moving on to the fan leaf that turns yellow. This process is how the leaf gives back its stored energy to the flowers. The process is called abscission and resorption.

I'm not making this shit up. Wiki has it spelled out right here:

Be sure to read the "process"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abscission#Resorption

That bag of fan leaves you throw (hopefully in the compost bin) is a bag of nutrients, sugars, proteins and plant hormones the plant needs to finish its life cycle. This is science not some anecdotal bs.
 
Migrower

Migrower

Well the plant gets its energy to build flowers from the old fan leaves that turn into energy supplies for the flowers.

Why do those fan leaves turn yellow, IF you leave them on the plant?

The reason is this, chlorophyll (the green stuff) in the leaves is stored energy in the form of several different sugars that the leaves create during photosynthesis. The plants will later on as the leaf matures, use up that stored energy to create FLOWERS and seeds.

So by taking off all the fan leaves where does the plant now get the energy to produce flowers?

The plant "might" look to the roots but that isn't how the plant gets energy to produce flowers. It does that with photosynthesis. here's the cool part, due to the location of the fan leaves - take a look should be located right where the leaf stem meets the plant stem there's a stem shooting out right there and that new stem is where the flowers are.

So the energy goes into the fan leaf down the leaf stem then up the stem into the flower. That process is called translocation.

Roots do not create sugars the plant needs to grow flowers. This is ONLY done is the leaves.

Moving on to the fan leaf that turns yellow. This process is how the leaf gives back its stored energy to the flowers. The process is called abscission and resorption.

I'm not making this shit up. Wiki has it spelled out right here:

Be sure to read the "process"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abscission#Resorption

That bag of fan leaves you throw (hopefully in the compost bin) is a bag of nutrients, sugars, proteins and plant hormones the plant needs to finish its life cycle. This is science not some anecdotal bs.
This is partial truth. Don’t believe all wiki says. You could definitely be giving false info depending on a persons environment. You want to know what all those terms really mean and do pick up a intro to horticulture book.
 
Jimster

Jimster

Supporter
.14kwh the most expensive in the world? lol... Hawaii is like .35kwh... Conneticut is around .20kwh .14kwh is cheap electricity compared to a ton of other states.
On the other side of Pa, we are paying 7 cents/KWH. I was going to get into solar energy a while back, but the 20+ year payback period was just too high in this area, not to mention the weather.
 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

This is partial truth. Don’t believe all wiki says. You could definitely be giving false info depending on a persons environment. You want to know what all those terms really mean and do pick up a intro to horticulture book.
Its not just wiki - I quoted that because its an easier read than a science article written by.... wait for it..... scientists.
Not to mention all the science articles that were used for reference in the wiki article. Yeah there might be a few books to take a look at there. Check em out.


Yes an intro to horticulture book

This one but you need to know how to read at a college level, its not written for 6th graders.


Botany by James D. Mauseth

This book goes into GREAT detail about the functions of leaves and after reading this you will likely not be doing defoil and many other weird things only cannabis growers do.






 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

On the other side of Pa, we are paying 7 cents/KWH. I was going to get into solar energy a while back, but the 20+ year payback period was just too high in this area, not to mention the weather.
We pay .14/Kwh because we still need to pay for the nuclear power plant at Limeric that they sold us telling us it will reduce our engergy costs. What a freaking joke that turned into.

We are i the process of moving to upstate New York - finger lakes region. We get less sunlight up there that western PA.
It rains/snows every morning then the sun comes out most days. We generate a good deal of energy even with overcast conditions. It's actually amazing. The only time we dont generate during daylight hours is when the panels are covered with snow.
 
Migrower

Migrower

Its not just wiki - I quoted that because its an easier read than a science article written by.... wait for it..... scientists.
Not to mention all the science articles that were used for reference in the wiki article. Yeah there might be a few books to take a look at there. Check em out.


Yes an intro to horticulture book

This one but you need to know how to read at a college level, its not written for 6th graders.


Botany by James D. Mauseth

This book goes into GREAT detail about the functions of leaves and after reading this you will likely not be doing defoil and many other weird


I have used many of Mr. Mauseth’s books,studies and lab results in more papers than I can account. I’m sure I’ve just slapped his name on as a source on more than one occasion because he has so much material out.

You do know science is ever changing,and basing everything on “science “ may not always give you the best outcome.
Experienced growers do what they do because they have learned to through trial and error and know what works. All plants are not the same or even cannabis strains. Many love to be pruned. And if grown in a certain way may need to. Other strains may hate it. It’s all depending on your situation. I mean I don’t prune my aloe or my jade plants ever. But I will my Japanese maple and dwarf weeping balsam.
 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

I prune my aloe lol

Pruning and defoliation are different.

Sure I prune cannabis in veg and occasionally in early flower.
Defoil not so much.

So your leaves function differently on your japanese maple tree than you cannabis tree?
 
Migrower

Migrower

I prune my aloe lol

Pruning and defoliation are different.

Sure I prune cannabis in veg and occasionally in early flower.
Defoil not so much.

So your leaves function differently on your japanese maple tree than you cannabis tree?
You may harvest a aloe leave yes. And absolutely the leaves are different. Cannabis would be considered a herbaceous plant. While the my maple is a woody specimen. While the the function is almost the same,they grow much different. You see herbaceous plants are designed to be harvested and keep growing as long as prevented from producing seed. The maple will shed its leaves annually no matter what. And can regrow anywhere along a branch(stem) herbaceous plants have a designed grow pattern.(I.e. you know where your leaves will produce on a cannabis plant) My maple will store its energy for the winter,the cannabis plant using it for flower. And again I do not defoliate I prune also.
 
Frankster

Frankster

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

This is the time you all have been waiting for, the product has been dried and has started the curing process. Overall I would say the test is a success, and I think I've done a good job at keeping all things equal. However, the results were not what I expected.

And the winner is.... Control group! (no defoliation)

Control group:
Plant 1: 142.5g
Plant 2: 148.0g
Plant 3: 133.0g
Total: 423.5g

Defoliation group:
Plant A: 137.5g
Plant B: 116.5g
Plant C: 130.0g
Total: 384.5g

Total yield 808 grams, 1.56g/w (average power draw during flowering)

Control group also had bigger flowers, less larfy shit, so it was easier to trim and has a better bag appeal.
My conclusion is, pruning plants for increased light penetration (during week 2 flowering) decreases yield. Mind you, this doesn't prove that pruning doesn't work to increase yields, and needs further studying and testing done using different techniques.

Next time I will be conducting a test of the lollipop technique.

Overall, I'm really happy with this grow, I smashed my goal of achieving 1 gram / watt, using my new "quantum board" lights, and I highly recommend these lights to anyone else.

Discuss, argue, point to me what I did wrong, so I can make better testing in the future.
Thanks for sticking with the ride! :)

Is this thread still alive? What is thought about these results? I've not seen
FatManatee
on the forums as of late and looked up this thread via google, because I was wondering and needed some science based advice. Sorry guys, I just can't buy that "cutting off" leaves is going to "increase" overall product, the results here speak for themselves.

Anyone got another thread like this that states otherwise (or reinforces this conclusion), I would be interested in reading more on this subject.
 
sambapati

sambapati

I'm thinking that by defoliating, I can increase the surface are of leaves that can absorb light.
As the light is not blocked by the top layer of leaves, the light will penetrate within the plant and bounce back and forth around the foliage..

@Jack og, you made a good point with increasing airflow, I hadn't even thought about that. As cannabis is a wind pollinated plant, increasing airflow within the plant should help increase yields, maybe even more so then the added light penetration.
A book that I have read says to remove the inside leaves on the bottom 1/5 of the plant which increases air circulation [from Growing Exceptional Cannabis]. I've dried out the lower leaves I've taken and use them for Hamburger Helper with joints. This question also links into the idea of adding cfls or other side lighting and whether that makes a difference. Excited to see the results from Frankster's study. He is a fart smeller...oops I mean Smart Feller!
 
Bobrown14

Bobrown14

Is this thread still alive? What is thought about these results? I've not seen
FatManatee
on the forums as of late and looked up this thread via google, because I was wondering and needed some science based advice. Sorry guys, I just can't buy that "cutting off" leaves is going to "increase" overall product, the results here speak for themselves.

Anyone got another thread like this that states otherwise (or reinforces this conclusion), I would be interested in reading more on this subject.
I've got a gorilla outside this year and all the plants pretty much (not everyone) self prune as the plant get larger and larger the btm of the plant is mostly shaded and those leaves fall off over time. So there's no damaged tissue from cutting off leaves due to senescence and abscission.
Plants are large enough so yields are not a problem. Getting to harvest now thats another story. Leaf hoppers are suddenly a thing as is purple disease.

I guess I could cut off all the leaves then there woodn't be any food for the hoppers.
 
cemchris

cemchris

Staff member
Supporter
Is this thread still alive? What is thought about these results? I've not seen
FatManatee
on the forums as of late and looked up this thread via google, because I was wondering and needed some science based advice. Sorry guys, I just can't buy that "cutting off" leaves is going to "increase" overall product, the results here speak for themselves.

Anyone got another thread like this that states otherwise (or reinforces this conclusion), I would be interested in reading more on this subject.
Crazy because of my years and years in the same rooms with the same strains No deflo is usually less weight. There is so many factors that go into this. Lights, strains, enviro, nutrients, medium, topping, indo/OD, plant count, age and so on. You can't make a blanket statement in either direction. Some strains I don't bother cause it doesnt matter. No defol on other ones will take a lb or 2 off the table. Every single time. Take it for what it is. You have to come to this yourself for your setup. Take what anyone is saying with guidence and test it yourself. You then can even get into when you defol and how much you defol because there is def too late and too much.

I would say your approach to growing, plants per sq ft, lights, and veg time should all be conisdered when you decide what to do. There would be 2 way different approaches to those if I was going to defol or I wasnt.
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

Crazy because of my years and years in the same rooms with the same strains No deflo is usually less weight. There is so many factors that go into this. Lights, strains, enviro, nutrients, medium, topping, indo/OD, plant count, age and so on. You can't make a blanket statement in either direction. Some strains I don't bother cause it doesnt matter. No defol on other ones will take a lb or 2 off the table. Every single time. Take it for what it is. You have to come to this yourself for your setup. Take what anyone is saying with guidence and test it yourself. You then can even get into when you defol and how much you defol because there is def too late and too much.

I would say your approach to growing, plants per sq ft, lights, and veg time should all be conisdered when you decide what to do. There would be 2 way different approaches to those if I was going to defol or I wasnt.

Well put!

You pack tables with rockwool blocks right? and have a mess of leaves all together if not defoliated clogging up airflow and leaving stale humid air pockets which inhibit production (and other issues can result).

I like bushes with space around them that i can move around my space to work and with good structured plants never remove leaves. I am trying to maximize each plant staying in plant count. When i tested defoliation it generally reduced yield. But on each individual plant. Rather than growing a canopy and looking at total yield per light/table. Which has different needs for success.

I will add that even with space some leafier fat leaf strains still benefit from strategically removing some leaves to open up the lowers in my experience.



All of the different techniques argued about endlessly are like this. All are really tools to use for individual situations. It would be good if conversations were more about why we do what we do.

I remember even in the old jorje cervantes book he said growers may remove leaves that overlap to avoid humid stale air pockets. Leaves cant transpire in those conditions.
 
cemchris

cemchris

Staff member
Supporter
Well put!

You pack tables with rockwool blocks right? and have a mess of leaves all together if not defoliated clogging up airflow and leaving stale humid air pockets which inhibit production (and other issues can result).

I like bushes with space around them that i can move around my space to work and with good structured plants never remove leaves. I am trying to maximize each plant staying in plant count. When i tested defoliation it generally reduced yield. But on each individual plant. Rather than growing a canopy and looking at total yield per light/table. Which has different needs for success.

I will add that even with space some leafier fat leaf strains still benefit from strategically removing some leaves to open up the lowers in my experience.



All of the different techniques argued about endlessly are like this. All are really tools to use for individual situations. It would be good if conversations were more about why we do what we do.

I remember even in the old jorje cervantes book he said growers may remove leaves that overlap to avoid humid stale air pockets. Leaves cant transpire in those conditions.
1 gal coco fabrics. Pmuch the same thing.

Exactly. You bring up the perfect example of this. Me and you have 2 totally different styles and that yields 2 totally different approaches to how you take care and grow your plants. If I wasn't defoling that's exactly what I would do. That or SCROG/SOG. Some people push 20K. Some push 300 watts. Some grow 8ft monsters outside that yield lbs each. There is SO many techniques and way people grow on these boards in enviros that are the complete opposite of each other you have to be real careful when you start quoting stuff and throwing out "facts." It's also newer peoples job to not take any of this as gospel and use it as guidance to test some ideas out and see what works.

When you want to talk about head pressure on pumps or BTU for cooling x amount of lights ect that is stuff you can put some experience behind and give some facts. I'm not discounting OP and kudos for doing this. He had the question like everyone has and did the test himself. If you grow similar strains with similar lights in a similar size then this could be something you could apply and follow for guidance.
 
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Frankster

Frankster

Exactly. You bring up the perfect example of this. Me and you have 2 totally different styles and that yields 2 totally different approaches to how you take care and grow your plants. If I wasn't defoling that's exactly what I would do. That or SCROG/SOG. Some people push 20K. Some push 300 watts. Some grow 8ft monsters outside that yield lbs each. There is SO many techniques and way people grow on these boards in enviros that are the complete opposite of each other you have to be real careful when you start quoting stuff and throwing out "facts." It's also newer peoples job to not take any of this as gospel and use it as guidance to test some ideas out and see what works.

When you want to talk about head pressure on pumps or BTU for cooling x amount of lights ect that is stuff you can put some experience behind and give some facts. I'm not discounting OP and kudos for doing this. He had the question like everyone has and did the test himself. If you grow similar strains with similar lights in a similar size then this could be something you could apply and follow for guidance.
Yea, it really boils down to the environmental conditions and what's being attempted given the tools available, the equipment on hand, and the experience of the grower, everything is a learning experience, and for me that's part of the journey.

If I master a technique, sometimes I'll move on from that, because I simply want to learn some newer ways of doing things, (I see much more value in overall cumulative knowledge) or try a totally different technique, just for the practice/experience of it. My double ended hoods, my hydro setup, and refrigerated cooling units are all currently put away because I'm currently working on a living/super soil expedition using LED panels, so I've tried to do everything in between, for me that broadens my horizoons. That doesn't mean that equipment will be stowed next spring, I might go back to a hydro/LED setup next spring.

But I also get the grower that wants consistency, stuck in a vein of very specifically focused grows, (replicating the same thing over and over) as those often represent financial investments, which is not necessarily the main objective, of every grow out there. The math and documentation part's of growing are fundamentals that inform, but that doesn't show the whole picture.

Personally, I don't like to defoliate any of my autos, that's for certain, and If I do remove leaves it's going to be useless bottoms ones (usually done in month 2) and then train them to the correct thickness.

Every plants going to be either thicker or thinner based upon strain type and lighting enviornment, Fans help increase air flow and move leaves into light, further encouraging photosynthesis. Weed was made for the wind, it's an environment it evolved in, so it's built some of that into it's structure. I think plants benefit from mild air movement on the leaves.

Photo's sometimes require a little defoliation because the volume of the plants exceed the available light source, and the leaves have become overgrown, so it might make sense in this situation, but otherwise, the best choice would be to move the plants apart, and add more light capacity.
 
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