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Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

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As for which horticulture, even cotton is using this technique, a google search would give you a lot of species that defoil actually helps.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/defoliation (some science behind it)


Fuck, that sativa is a giant! :D
Not that big this time. I kept her in a #4 nursery pot. I usually run them in 7.5gal pots and they get easily 2x larger. Talking +4 meters easy indoors. So they require a lot of training.
On the defoil thing these Sativa are very interesting as far as leaf growth is concerned. They start out with BIG fat leaves with large blades. At about 25 days into flower the plant will begin using up all the chlorophyll (sugars) stored in those big fans and they begin to turn yellow and fall off.

Those big fans get replaced with longer much narrower leaves with very thin blades. This happens in flower again about 25-30 days into flowering. At about the time when folks are doing defoil.

So there's some anecdotal evidence that plants need these leaves and use them for a good reason.

That article you pointed has a lot of good reasons to NOT defoil your plants. Several plants have the ability to produce pathogenic compounds to make hoofed animals sick from eating or defoiling the leaves of some grasses.

There's some food for thought.

I'm going with keeping my plants happy so they make me happy, specially in flower.


On the 40 day strain. I made one from a mutant (poly-ploid) Jellium plant and cloned it. The clones got a bacteria on the cut end while it was in water before roots. Once the roots came and I put the cut in soil it was evident that the plants matabolism had been retained from the mutatated plant but the poly-ploidism had decreased somewhat and the plant instead of being a 2' little tiny bush turned into a 7+ foot regular size plant with a very fast metabolism. The mutant poly-ploid finished in 30 days.

The clones are finished in 40 days. I also use malted barley in my soil mix which helps metabolism as well as finishing 15% earlier that usual for a strain.

This pic is the original poly-ploid

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This is the clone of the plant above that finished in 30 days
She's not finished yet but the above plant it about finished - all little tiny nugs up there and all nice size nugs down below

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This took about 5 more days to fatten and I harvest at 40 days this pic was 35 days from flip and the plant is easily +6' tall

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At the end of the day,
4 plants 6+ feet tall in a 4x4 space

VS

8 short plants topped and defoiled 3 feet tall which has the better yields?

In that 4x4 space I'm doing 27 zips dried trimmed and in the cans consistent and no nutes nothing but water all thru flower.

The key is water. Without a lot of water the plants can not get the nutrients from the soil.

I use a btm watering system with a 80gal res of RO water. The plants have access to water 24/7. Water along with a lot of air movement = decent yields and more biomass. No AC this year either and no mold.

To prevent mold I use Southern Ag - Garden Friendly Fungicide - 1 tsp to gal of water lightly sprayed in early VEG. Thats enough for the whole flower cycle. It's certified organic in Oregon for cannabis and most all other veggies and fruits.

It was dew points pretty much every night thru out the flower cycle. So hot as hell and humid to go with. NO mold. I was kinda surprised tbh - as you can see in the last pic ^^^ a spot of PM on the fan leaf there. That was it. I got nervous as all get out too that late in flower. I could have sprayed but just let it go and the PM never got any bigger than that little spot.
 
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i’m a huge fan of defoliation, here’s a pic of my first jack herer growing outdoors - just about done and should throw off 16-18 ounces...almost no bud rot, great air flow. did a few leaf removals - one in forst week of flowering, another a few weeks later, and a tiny bit along the way
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I'd argue which crop has the most consistency across all the buds, and my guess would be the crop which has the most canopy in the ideal light range distance wise from the lights.
I would argue the that plants have the ability to translocate sugars that are made from photosynthesis with chlorophyll to parts of the plant where they need that food the most.

Flowers are not the main source of these sugars made with photosynthesis. Fan leaves are the main source.


i’m a huge fan of defoliation, here’s a pic of my first jack herer growing outdoors
Nice bush - why do you defoil?

Where did you get the idea from to take off all the fan leaves?
 
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i’m a huge fan of defoliation, here’s a pic of my first jack herer growing outdoors - just about done and should throw off 16-18 ounces...almost no bud rot, great air flow. did a few leaf removals - one in forst week of flowering, another a few weeks later, and a tiny bit along the wayView attachment 898676
I would argue the that plants have the ability to translocate sugars that are made from photosynthesis with chlorophyll to parts of the plant where they need that food the most.

Flowers are not the main source of these sugars made with photosynthesis. Fan leaves are the main source.




Nice bush - why do you defoil?

Where did you get the idea from to take off all the fan leaves?
You never though that the leaves may turn yellow and die off because you're only giving water?
 
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You never though that the leaves may turn yellow and die off because you're only giving water?
There's a thing called leaf senescence - its a completely normal and expected part of a plants life cycle.

Leaves have a natural life cycle that is different that the life cycle of the plant. The leaves serve several duties in addition to photosynthesis. They have the ability to send and receive plant growth regulators and its how the cannabis plant knows when to flower among other functions.

My trees and plants outside they loose their leaves and only get water. Is there something wrong with trees when fall comes and they loose leaves??
Why do the tree leaves turn yellow and fall off?

The trees are not sick. Its a function of the plant life-cycle and there's a very good reason those leaves fall off. Think about it....
 
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Here's a pic of my current flowers. No defoil but I do trim out lower LAF at flip thats it. This is organic grown weed, nothing but WATER that's it the whole grow start to finish.

I get consistently 1.3ish gm/watt every grow. The length of flower is 40-50 days with the exception of the big landrace sativa in the right corner but her yields will be significantly larger than 1.3 gm/watt but over much longer time than 40-50 days the hybrids flower for.

All you guys keep banging on me, I'll be doing something other than fucking with my plants. Actually went on vacation for 9 days and left them all on their own. OMG I didn't pull off not even 1 fan leaf and they are fine.
You people that like to fiddle with your plants, defoil is just your excuse to want to futz around in the flower room and its not necessary. Yeah plants been growing for 10s of thousands of years without chemical fertilizers and cal-mag and all that non-sense. Have at it. There are easier ways to grow, a lot easier ways.

Eventually you won't be able to compete due to your high costs and muddling about with the flowers.

My cost for this grow is about $200 dollars for electricity and water. Turn over 8 plants every 40-60 days @ 1.3 gm/watt. Do the math.

Just my opinion worth price paid.



View attachment 898128
Man you must have cheap power my electricity alone is $600 every 3 months and I grow outdoor. Go figure..
 
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I would argue the that plants have the ability to translocate sugars that are made from photosynthesis with chlorophyll to parts of the plant where they need that food the most.

Flowers are not the main source of these sugars made with photosynthesis. Fan leaves are the main source.
Man you're being ridiculously stubborn about this..I didnt say they werent. I'm not saying leaves arent important, I'm saying removing some leaves is necessary some times. And just like you said, the plant can translocate carbohydrates and nutrients from source leaves into the sinks, in this case the buds. So as long as you leave enough on for healthy transpiration and photosynthesis it's fine to pull some off. And allowing light into the canopy is important, I dont care how many people argue it isnt because I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count that lower shaded out buds dont develop as well as the ones receiving direct light, or at least only passed through a leaf or two. If the photons dont go deep enough into the thylakoid stacks within each chloroplast the metabolism slows way down and disrupts the ability of that leaf to act as a source. Any grower who has grown with an intentionally crowded canopy for any amount of time will tell you that.
It's why you try to remove anything so low that it doesnt recieve adequate PAR and focus the energy into parts of the plant that do. And by removing a few top leaves you allow light to reach deeper, effectively making a thicker canopy.

I've pulled a garbage can of leaves out of this room and my buds still get huge and packed in there, canopy is a dense 24-32" deep and full of buds. But by the numbers you posted earlier your yield in a 4x4 is supposedly nearly double my yields .. I'm really struggling with that one. This was about week 4.5 with another 5 weeks to go, and I'm pulling on average for a decent crop depending on strain about 16oz per 4x4. Full crop cycle every 3 months also, so 4 crops per year., with an average cost of about $300 in expenses including power each cycle.
20190923_094052.jpg
 
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There's a thing called leaf senescence - its a completely normal and expected part of a plants life cycle.

Leaves have a natural life cycle that is different that the life cycle of the plant. The leaves serve several duties in addition to photosynthesis. They have the ability to send and receive plant growth regulators and its how the cannabis plant knows when to flower among other functions.

My trees and plants outside they loose their leaves and only get water. Is there something wrong with trees when fall comes and they loose leaves??
Why do the tree leaves turn yellow and fall off?

The trees are not sick. Its a function of the plant life-cycle and there's a very good reason those leaves fall off. Think about it....
First, your trees are not exactly fast growing annuals.. But yes the leaves fall off because they're dead. Not the tree though, because it's not an annual.. Cant believe I need to explain that. The senescence of leaves for an annual happens when they are almost dead, not halfway through the flower cycle, unless they are deprived of nutrients. Why would a plant shed its source leaves right when the sinks need them the most? It makes no sense.

Where are you getting this stuff? As in, what's your background, how long you been growing? Do you have any formal education in horticulture besides what you read on the internet?
 
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Here is a selectively defoliated top and a few other buds from my last pull. There was another foot of mids beneath it that were also nice and ripe. Sure doesnt seem like selective defoliation hurt these buds any. But who knows, maybe they could have been the size of a Louisville slugger and hard as diamond had I left every leaf on it... Doubt it though.
20190331_112648.jpg
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Here is a selectively defoliated top and a few other buds from my last pull. There was another foot of mids beneath it that were also nice and ripe. Sure doesnt seem like selective defoliation hurt these buds any. But who knows, maybe they could have been the size of a Louisville slugger and hard as diamond had I left every leaf on it... Doubt it though.View attachment 898764View attachment 898762View attachment 898765

Too defoliated. Start over!
 
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Here is a selectively defoliated top and a few other buds from my last pull. There was another foot of mids beneath it that were also nice and ripe. Sure doesnt seem like selective defoliation hurt these buds any. But who knows, maybe they could have been the size of a Louisville slugger and hard as diamond had I left every leaf on it... Doubt it though.View attachment 898764View attachment 898762View attachment 898765
IMAGINE how much better they would have been if you did not remove a single leave! :(
 
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It’s your lady, treat her how you want. Personally I’ve done it in moderation inside and out because some stains produce more leaves than others and it killed my airflow. I super crop, pinch and break stocks, and top my outdoor. Still have problems with it getting too tall. I think I’m too lazy to really do the full defoliation. I’ve came close inside though and it’s all up to the situation for me.
Airflow and light penetration indoors mainly. I had a decent harvest when I defoliated later. Once I did too much too early and it was not as good as a harvest. So the time you do it also may have something to do with the science of it. I don’t really pinch leaves off my outdoor plants. They start falling off in the fall so I don’t need too.
 
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Outdoor plants have the benefit of the very bottom leaves recieving the exact same PAR readings as the top of a 12 foot plant, not to me tion WAY better penetration through multiple layers of dense foliage. You cant really stretch out sunlight, we're so far away from the sun the inverse square law of diminishing light we are subject to from artificial light doesnt apply.

Another way to think about this, Bobrown14 said " plants have the ability to translocate sugars that are made from photosynthesis with chlorophyll to parts of the plant where they need that food the most."

He is saying removing leaves impairs the plants bud production by removing food sources (leaves). Then he goes on to say those leaves turn yellow when the stored food in it have been depleted.
So why then does a plant that's been selectively defoliated even quite heavily, still have a ton of healthy green leaves on it and no yellow leaves? Shouldnt those leaves be sucked dry of all their carbs and mobile nutrients by the nutrient demands of the buds? If there is an explanation for that I'd like to hear it.

It's also ignoring the fact that while leaves are nutrient sources of course, I also feed my plants nutrients. And carbs in flower with my massive supplement.
 
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Man you must have cheap power my electricity alone is $600 every 3 months and I grow outdoor. Go figure..
Naw bro - most expensive in the world (for now - we are moving and will have 25kw of solar). Here in Philly is .14/KWh

We are extremely efficient. I have a VEG table going, cut/seedling table, VEG room and a FLOWER room.

$200 a month I'd be REAL happy here.


@Dirtbag - are you suggesting the sugars (in whatever form) that you FEED your plants are better than what mother nature provides for us (free).
 
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Naw bro - most expensive in the world (for now - we are moving and will have 25kw of solar). Here in Philly is .14/KWh

We are extremely efficient. I have a VEG table going, cut/seedling table, VEG room and a FLOWER room.

$200 a month I'd be REAL happy here.


@Dirtbag - are you suggesting the sugars (in whatever form) that you FEED your plants are better than what mother nature provides for us (free).
25kw solar man that's huge we can't get that big here yet I've got 6.5kw solar I can upgrade to 10kw for an extra $10,000 which would probably bring my power bill down to $50 a month. Don't have a lazy 10 G lying round though but if I did would more likely go into an indoor grow set up. 😁
 

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