Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

plumsmooth · Jun 25, 2022

Well I finally encountered a strain that taught me the importance of Defoliation! Ironically the other strain I grow might need the least of many: Purple Punch : Very Stretchy high calyx to leaf ratio! Golosa by Delicious Seeds however is the epitomy of a strain that needs it especially if you veg like I do for 7 weeks.... This thing puts out so much new growth after the switch that the Fan leaves literally get int he way and it is like it makes a whole nother set of Fan leaves that even they, after 2 weeks want defoliation yet again. Then in the last 2 weeks a little here and there to make sure colas are breathing = A lot of defoliation. PP on the other hand seems fine with none depending on how the plant is trained or not trained...

I didn't read the whole thread but if someone didn't mention "strain specific" then well i just added the most important piece of missing info here ha ha ego....

Bobrown14 · Jun 26, 2022

Well have you grown it without defoil?

There's a reason the plant is growing leaves and it's probably an important reason.

I just let a plant grow like what you described and it was fine without de-foil but was a pita on the trim table but I got a decent haul for such a small plant. Mine was Florida Kush/Triangle kush/True OG was a short bushy plant. I got surprised with my finished produce.. Good weed too.

HippiHemuli · Jun 26, 2022

Small spaces and hydro its just must to do defo but idk about soil or bigger space.

plumsmooth · Jun 26, 2022

Bobrown14 said:
Well have you grown it without defoil?

There's a reason the plant is growing leaves and it's probably an important reason.

I just let a plant grow like what you described and it was fine without de-foil but was a pita on the trim table but I got a decent haul for such a small plant. Mine was Florida Kush/Triangle kush/True OG was a short bushy plant. I got surprised with my finished produce.. Good weed too.

There's a reason plants grow outside and probably an important one...

N1ghtL1ght · Jun 26, 2022

The higher the ppfd which hits a leaf the less efficient will be the conversion of light into biomass, as gradually more photons will be turned into heat instead ("non-photochemical quenching"). And potentially reduce photoinhibition, photodestruction and photorepairprocesses. Older leaves don't work as good as new leaves as chloroplasts age and turn into dysfunctional gerontoplasts.

Removal of bigger top leaves can help evening out light spread on a plant if it already has grown enough leaves so that the photons do hit the lower shoots, but not the pot/soil/floor.

Lower shoots photomorphogenesis & phototropism is regulated by the influx of blue light & ppfd, and a Pr:Pfr-ratio that, under shade, will make them stretch and grow a lanky weak structures that needs inconvenient support. Also longer internodes mean less budsites as these shoot from the nodes where the shoot axis meristems reside. Naturally this will hit a cap once space runs out.

About nutrition translocation:
Not all of them are phloem-mobile, and some have a shorter range. Nute ions travel upwards by the transpirational pull into the leaves within the xylem, with transpiration/photosynthesis being the driving force behind it. From there they get processed and fed into the phloem, from which both basipetal & acropetal flow into the sinks occur. The distance these can travel is different from element to element and based on its electrochemical gradient the ionic reduction exerts, also transporter molecules. Some, namely calcium & boron, aren't much fed into the phloem and rather crystallize out at the end of the xylemic pathways within the mesophyll.

This is the reason why some famous plant diseases like blossom end rot exists, the fruits themselves are too far away from the sources of calcium.
That is why it is also a good idea to let sugar leaves do some good amount of photosynthesis as these are more closer to the sinks/flowers.

Bobrown14 · Jun 29, 2022

N1ghtL1ght said:
The higher the ppfd which hits a leaf the less efficient will be the conversion of light into biomass, as gradually more photons will be turned into heat instead ("non-photochemical quenching"). And potentially reduce photoinhibition, photodestruction and photorepairprocesses. Older leaves don't work as good as new leaves as chloroplasts age and turn into dysfunctional gerontoplasts.

Removal of bigger top leaves can help evening out light spread on a plant if it already has grown enough leaves so that the photons do hit the lower shoots, but not the pot/soil/floor.

Lower shoots photomorphogenesis & phototropism is regulated by the influx of blue light & ppfd, and a Pr:Pfr-ratio that, under shade, will make them stretch and grow a lanky weak structures that needs inconvenient support. Also longer internodes mean less budsites as these shoot from the nodes where the shoot axis meristems reside. Naturally this will hit a cap once space runs out.

About nutrition translocation:
Not all of them are phloem-mobile, and some have a shorter range. Nute ions travel upwards by the transpirational pull into the leaves within the xylem, with transpiration/photosynthesis being the driving force behind it. From there they get processed and fed into the phloem, from which both basipetal & acropetal flow into the sinks occur. The distance these can travel is different from element to element and based on its electrochemical gradient the ionic reduction exerts, also transporter molecules. Some, namely calcium & boron, aren't much fed into the phloem and rather crystallize out at the end of the xylemic pathways within the mesophyll.

This is the reason why some famous plant diseases like blossom end rot exists, the fruits themselves are too far away from the sources of calcium.
That is why it is also a good idea to let sugar leaves do some good amount of photosynthesis as these are more closer to the sinks/flowers.

You should also hit on the process of Plant Growth Regulators in the meristem and the fan leaves and how and why they take place. It's important on why/how the flowers are produced and when.

I disagree with :

"That is why it is also a good idea to let sugar leaves do some good amount of photosynthesis as these are more closer to the sinks/flowers."

This is speculation. A fan leaf IS the sink for energy/photosynthesis and has much more surface area than a "sugar" leaf. By its very nature the fan leaves are sinks of energy when they mature they become a source of energy for the flowers. This process was ignored by your writings and very very important to flower maturity --> PGR/Meristem involvement.

Please include all functions of fan leaves in your decision to remove them up to and including what stress it causes the plant.

Brownthumb · Jun 29, 2022

Interesting… when leaves get coated they provide a different role??? Fan leaves are doing what at thi time except…?

N1ghtL1ght · Jun 30, 2022

Bobrown14 said:
This is speculation. A fan leaf IS the sink for energy/photosynthesis and has much more surface area than a "sugar" leaf. By its very nature the fan leaves are sinks of energy when they mature they become a source of energy for the flowers. This process was ignored by your writings and very very important to flower maturity --> PGR/Meristem involvement

Well, first off I think a leaf is a source of photosynthates and not a sink. The new shoots are sinks but at some time into flower the plant doesn't form leaves of those much anymore but instead flowers.
I also feel like size of leaf is not relevant as long as the canopy is still dense enough so that most light is being absorbed.

Would you mind elaborating on the PGR/meristem-interactions and why that necessarily needs fanleaves?

Aqua Man · Jun 30, 2022

Newest leaves will be the most photosynthetic. Photosynthesis is best looked at from an overall plant point…. Total leaf surface area of healthy photosynthetic leaves.

Older, larger fan leaves are less photosynthetic and play more of a sink role while new growth is drawing on older less efficient leaves when there is a need such as a mobile nutrient deficiency.

A plant focuses almost all of its energy into new growth of roots, growing tips, reproductive tissue.

So really a leafs role chages over its life. It goes from a production of energy to a storage that can be drawn on at a later point.

Brownthumb · Jun 30, 2022

Dats the fact jack!!! Now lets talk stem size/leaf and buds…. everyone talks about genetics and size but who out here grows thick stems with tiny buds?

Brownthumb · Jun 30, 2022

Sorry, that might be a conversation for a different thread!

Frankster · Jun 30, 2022

Aqua Man said:
Newest leaves will be the most photosynthetic. Photosynthesis is best looked at from an overall plant point…. Total leaf surface area of healthy photosynthetic leaves.

Older, larger fan leaves are less photosynthetic and play more of a sink role while new growth is drawing on older less efficient leaves when there is a need such as a mobile nutrient deficiency.

A plant focuses almost all of its energy into new growth of roots, growing tips, reproductive tissue.

So really a leafs role chages over its life. It goes from a production of energy to a storage that can be drawn on at a later point.

Good information

Yeah I'm getting quite a bit of shriveled leaves and weird shit inside the bubba. The plants are pretty big and I've never vegged them this big before

I get the impression I should maybe clean up the bottom and let it just stretch out. So many heads up there now. In the dozens range... There taking over where the plants are going...

Using soluble kelp. Master blend. Magnesium sulfate calcium nitrate fluvic and tricontonol as the base nutrition.

Occasional sugars microbes and simple amino acids

Aqua Man · Jun 30, 2022

Brownthumb said:
Dats the fact jack!!! Now lets talk stem size/leaf and buds…. everyone talks about genetics and size but who out here grows thick stems with tiny buds?

Genetics, healthy of the plant, spectral effects and PGRs usually the variables i consider

Brownthumb · Jun 30, 2022

Has no one considered stem size? All things equal… ?

Brownthumb · Jun 30, 2022

That could be be a genetic factor too but haven’t scene any discussion or correlations regarding this…. Just looking for info?

Frankster · Jun 30, 2022

Aqua Man said:
Genetics, healthy of the plant, spectral effects and PGRs usually the variables i consider

Yes I think amines and acid's play a huge role in stem health also. And temperature.... Potassium in particular...

Stem health is certainly a very convoluted subject and also developmentally dependent. Getting things right in this department is critical during the flip

Lots of changes over time

Certainly PRGs spectrum and

are huge too

Of note, it's easy to dismiss a strain as substandard when stem health is not fully in line

With all my training and stressed habits I've developed an adequate stem regimen and follow it very closely these days

Healthy stems = healthy plants. Generally speaking

Aqua Man · Jun 30, 2022

Frankster said:
Yes I think amines and acid's play a huge role in stem health also. And temperature.... Potassium in particular...

Stem health is certainly a very convoluted subject and also developmentally dependent. Getting things right in this department is critical during the flip

Lots of changes over time

Certainly PRGs spectrum and are huge too

Of note, it's easy to dismiss a strain as substandard when stem health is not fully in line

With all my training and stressed habits I've developed an adequate stem regimen and follow it very closely these days

Healthy stems = healthy plants. Generally speaking

Yeah and 1 i missed is grow media… aero, hydro and even coco produce more hallow stems while soil and peat produces solid more woody stems

N1ghtL1ght · Jun 30, 2022

Aqua Man said:
Newest leaves will be the most photosynthetic. Photosynthesis is best looked at from an overall plant point…. Total leaf surface area of healthy photosynthetic leaves.

Older, larger fan leaves are less photosynthetic and play more of a sink role while new growth is drawing on older less efficient leaves when there is a need such as a mobile nutrient deficiency.

A plant focuses almost all of its energy into new growth of roots, growing tips, reproductive tissue.

So really a leafs role chages over its life. It goes from a production of energy to a storage that can be drawn on at a later point.

Thanks for that Aqua. Yes with mobile nutrients the older leaf may become the source in times of silent hunger/deficiencies but the person claimed

Bobrown14 said:
This is speculation. A fan leaf IS the sink for energy/photosynthesis

which contradicts this. A lot of energy that any leaf produces will be fed into the phloem which will carry it away. That's the definition of a source, not a sink. Only when a leaf is very young and in process of being formed will it be dependant on sugar that is produced elsewhere.

And we really need to differentiate between sugar/starch/energy or nutrition because the former is taken out of the air (CO2 + light) whereas the latter is taken in by the roots. So there are 2 different pathways initially how these things enter a plant, thus the way how to apply the source/sink-terminology also varies.

@Brownthumb
I'm sorry but I still don't understand what you ment by forgetting the fanleaf/meristem-interaction.

Bobrown14 said:
This process was ignored by your writings and very very important to flower maturity --> PGR/Meristem involvement.

Please include all functions of fan leaves in your decision to remove them up to and including what stress it causes the plant.

I'd be really happy to do as you suggest but I first need to understand that. Without big fanleaves the flowers won't bud out properly due to a lack of hormones? Is that what you ment Sir, I'm sorry to have to ask you again but there is apparently some physiological mechanism at large which I'm not aware of and if you could help me understand that any imput would be greatly welcomed.

Frankster · Jun 30, 2022

So I guess where I am these days is exploration of various simple acid and amino I can add to stabilize my base nutrition. Ie added pH stability and ppm buffering... I've even got back to using things like citric acid in very small quantities.... Ie 1/8 tsp per five gallon.... cause it's so strong.
Tricontonol working really well also both above and below... Which has surfactant activity in addition to hormones quality. I use a few other surfactants also. And soluble kelp...

The system works

I essentially evaluate the acidity and go from there... More acidic = less... Same with the amines. Sugars tend to be more pH stable but still need to watched close. Cause your only feeding microbes. due consideration given to development level But there's obviously a very good stable transition point between organics and salt mixture. Where you get something from both sides... Mobile nutrition. Complexity.. . Fermentation ECT

But I do think having a substrate under it is critical. Moss. Choir. Whatever is highly drainable with adequate CEC

I really try to line up my simple acid's to roles in the intracellular metabolism and mitochondria energy production

Controlling precipitation is far easier than ever with this method

N1ghtL1ght · Jul 2, 2022

When I first read about "shwazzing" I wasn't optimistic because of the flowering hormone "florigen" which is build in the leaf and then flows into the stem where it will change the inner stemcells and put these into flowering mode.
Also leaves carry many photoreceptors.
But after seeing the first shwazzed growreport it became apparent that there is no delay, it still works. And will completely renew the foliage, create more branching/budsites though it may not always appropriate to do so. Plant training/manipulation is highly situational IMO.

So here's an excerpt of a huge article on flower induction in plants that touches a bit on the science of it:

"Plants without leaves do not respond to any photoperiodic treatment, which suggests that the vegetative buds alone or perse are incapable of perceiving the stimulus? Similarly, plants with only old and mature leaves not only fail to respond but also they inhibit or nullify the photoperiod effect. However, partially mature leaf or leaves that are just unfolding, are highly sensitive. A remarkable feature is that even one such sensitive leaf is enough to respond to proper photoperiodic induction. It means whatever reactions or a product produced in one leaf is enough to induce flowering apical meristem wherever they are present."

Source:

Physiology of Flowering:

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

plumsmooth

Bobrown14

HippiHemuli

plumsmooth

N1ghtL1ght

Bobrown14

Brownthumb

N1ghtL1ght

Aqua Man

Brownthumb

Brownthumb

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Brownthumb

Brownthumb

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

N1ghtL1ght

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

N1ghtL1ght

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

plumsmooth

Bobrown14

HippiHemuli

plumsmooth

N1ghtL1ght

Bobrown14

Brownthumb

N1ghtL1ght

Aqua Man

Brownthumb

Brownthumb

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Brownthumb

Brownthumb

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

N1ghtL1ght

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

N1ghtL1ght

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