Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

[Glow]

Ultimately defoliation is predicated by the size of the plant being flowered. you cannot compare ones grow to the others because of the growers ability. size of tent, room, warehouse, ability to grow a successful ending flowering process. Each is his or her own process of finishing a proper finished flower that the grower has created to the best of there ability in there situation. That being said, defoliate at your will!View attachment 849896

And those are great points.

 

[Glow]

Great sourced information. It’s unfortunate that it doesn’t deal with current LEDs, as I have found that growing under them is very different than those mentioned. I have to agree in the past my tomato plants did not do well under 24hr lighting. 5 and 6 also make me question the relationship of the results vs led lighting. But it’s great information. It makes me curious, when I flip my plants start flowering very quickly, the change of lighting is signifigant. I think your suggestion that my lower temps and the continuous lighting in conjunction give me positive results has real validity. I appreciate your post, your sourcing and your opinion.

Also it is recognised you need higher air temps under LED to achieve the same leaf surface temperature at lower temps under HPS and MH. Basically unused light turns to heat in the leaf tissue. Because LED has a more optimised spectrum for plant growth than MH and HPS a higher percentage of the light is converted to more energy for photosynthesis (= less light becoming heat in the tissue). And yes there are variables - the question though is are there growth benefits under 24-hours of light?

 

[MIMedGrower]

Very nice - good effort. I guess important here is it has nice structure and presumably there was good space around her to ensure some light to the lower buds. I SOGed for years until I calculated I'd likely get 15 years in prison:) (too many plant numbers.. wiser to go larger and less numbers) I would never even think about defoliating anything (why bother?) in SOG..

Youre right. I dont like the leaves to touch much. I grow bushes as big as i can for my space because of plant count.

 

[Mr.jiujitsu]

Also it is recognised you need higher air temps under LED to achieve the same leaf surface temperature at lower temps under HPS and MH. Basically unused light turns to heat in the leaf tissue. Because LED has a more optimised spectrum for plant growth than MH and HPS a higher percentage of the light is converted to more energy for photosynthesis (= less light becoming heat in the tissue). And yes there are variables - the question though is are there growth benefits under 24-hours of light?

I can say my winter temps are a bit lower than summer. I hope to get better coloring in my flower tent this way. It’s all about cost effective growing for me. No extra heat or ac makes a nice impact on the monthly bills

 

[FatManatee]

Okay! End of week 4 flowering (day 28), update time!
It's been pretty quiet since my last update, and not much has changed. Now I'm finally starting to see the bud sites swelling up. The up coming weeks should be really exciting.

There's not much difference between the two groups, apart from the trimmed side showing a bit of magnesium deficiency, especially one plant at the top right of the corner shows visible mag def, which you should be able to see in the images too. I've increased the amount of Epsom Salts in the feed. However it's quite puzzling why one of the plants is showing more of a deficiency then others, as they have all received identical treatment, and are clones.

Images, galore!

 

[MIMedGrower]

Maf deficiency shows first at the bottom leaves.

And if everything is the same but the leaf plucking guess why there may be a deficiency. Mag and npk are mobile nutrients. They use and move around nutrients from the leaves as needed. They are called a source. They can also be a sink where excess nutrients are stored.

Just a thought.

 

[Glow]

That could also be an Mn deficiency. Mg and Mn deficiency is almost identical and the two are commonly misidentified.

 

[MIMedGrower]

That could also be an Mn deficiency. Mg and Mn deficiency is almost identical and the two are commonly misidentified.

Mag is mobile amd shows first at the older leaves. Mn is not amd shows on the newer leaves.

What i guess from the upper leaf edges folding up a bit is nutrient stress from overload or buildup.

When i see leaf stress i give water only and lower nute concentration first. Better to slow them down a minute than exasperate problems.

 

[Glow]

I tend to agree with you. Just covering bases. And yep nutrients are a bit yin and yang and often biotic and abiotic stress creates what looks like nutrient deficiencies or excess.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I tend to agree with you. Just covering bases. And yep nutrients are a bit yin and yang and often biotic and abiotic stress creates what looks like nutrient deficiencies or excess.

Definitely! It is hard to tell a deficiency from a nutrient antagonization from a lockout.

Thats why i take a lot of notes and try to get to know each plant.

 

[3 balls]

Definitely! It is hard to tell a deficiency from a nutrient antagonization from a lockout.

Thats why i take a lot of notes and try to get to know each plant.

It's extra fun when you're colorblind.

 

[MIMedGrower]

It's extra fun when you're colorblind.

Ok that is a surprising issue. :-)

I had to try to visualize it for a bit.

And i think it should be easily worked around. The solution to any leaf stress regardless of the actual issue is leaching or flushing and adding back a milder mix of a complete nute. This basically resets the medium and removes the stressor. Micromanaging with additives tends to cause problems anyway.

You can still see darker and lighter and spots and striping.

And bugs under a microscope still move.

This is assuming using the appropriate medium and nutes and environment of course.

I think you can do just fine colorblind.

Do well enough and maybe you will see colors when you close your eyes. ;-)

 

[FatManatee]

Maf deficiency shows first at the bottom leaves.

And if everything is the same but the leaf plucking guess why there may be a deficiency. Mag and npk are mobile nutrients. They use and move around nutrients from the leaves as needed. They are called a source. They can also be a sink where excess nutrients are stored.

Just a thought.

It started out at the bottom and advanced to the top. Other defoliated plants are showing slight MG def at the bottom as well. Stopped advancing with Epsom salts though.

I also did reduce my rate of base nutrients (biocanna flores) from 35ml to 20ml during week 3, now I'm up at 30ml.

 

[FatManatee]

Here's a side-by-side shot of a deficient cola with a healthy cola (different plants).
Just thinking it might be a nitrogen deficiency in combination with magnesium deficiency as well.

 

[FatManatee]

Darn it! I'm triple posting again, but for a good reason! :'D
I decided to get off my lazy ass and take some pictures during my watering session, which lasts a whopping 45-minutes to 1 hour depending on how swift I am. Watering, and mixing nutes by hand takes for ages! :D

I've got a few aces up my sleeves to make my life easier though. I've added a container to the bottom of the tent, and tilted it with stilts, so that when I water all the water will drain to the front of the tent. To help the water drain from the smartpots, I've also placed metal grills below them, this is also a great way to increase airflow for the bottom root area!

I've also got a few pictures showing you what is happening under the canopy. Must I say, the defoliation is really doing its thing! There is a MASSIVE difference in the health of the lower branches between the defoliation group, and the control group.

As you can see from the pictures, the control group has lower branches suffering from chlorosis, which means that the lower bud sites are not receiving enough light to photosynthesize! I've also noticed that the control group is losing leaves rapidly from the bottom. At this point, I must say that the defoliated site is much healthier looking overall. But will it have enough leaves to last out the flushing period? That remains to be seen. There also doesn't seem to be much of a difference in bud size, regardless of chlorosis, but I'm estimating that towards the end of flower, the bottom bud sites should be bigger on the defoliated plants.

Images in order:
Water vacuum
Side by sides (left: Control, right: Defoliated)
3 images of control group
2 images of defoliated plants
Image of plant trunk

 

[ONalliance]

Your 2nd sentence nails it, just about any thread you find, there will be strong opposing opinions from legit growers that know what their doing. Tent vs. room vs. warehouse is huge. Many times my buddy and I will take a cutting from the same mother, one of us will do great with a particular strain while the other has horrible results. Our grows a very similar, it's just the little things.

And genetics blow my mind, you would think how different can two different strains of cannabis plants be, but I swear sometimes it's like a frog compared to a hamster.:)

interestingly, different cuttings from different parts of a plant may result in a different plant. not all cuttings are the same. it is often seen in hybrid flowering plants that lower branches may present with different colors then the rest of the hybrid. the lower colors hybrid phenotypes that were used to isolate the final phenotype. but agree a grower can take the same plant and get different results

 

[Glow]

Definit

Here's a side-by-side shot of a deficient cola with a healthy cola (different plants).
Just thinking it might be a nitrogen deficiency in combination with magnesium deficiency as well.

Without understanding everything that is occurring grow wise (nutrients applied etc) as a bit of a quick fix for the deficiency perhaps try applying a Cal Mag + micro additive. That means you're applying N (Ca and Mg nitrate being used generally so they add NO3 N, Ca and Mg, and the micros).

 

[DesertHeat]

the question though is are there growth benefits under 24-hours of light?

From reading alot of threads about 24hr vs 18hr veg, the general consensus was 24 hour light gives you shorter and bushy plants with fast growth. I'm not sure if its what everyone uses but the majority seemed to be using it for years. My last veg was under 18hrs and i had tall stems and were thin. I really want to try the 24hour veg for my next run and hopefully i can manage it. I'm fairly new to growing, and all i have is 1000w MH and HPS. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Kot]

From reading alot of threads about 24hr vs 18hr veg, the general consensus was 24 hour light gives you shorter and bushy plants with fast growth. I'm not sure if its what everyone uses but the majority seemed to be using it for years. My last veg was under 18hrs and i had tall stems and were thin. I really want to try the 24hour veg for my next run and hopefully i can manage it. I'm fairly new to growing, and all i have is 1000w MH and HPS. Any advice would be appreciated.

Your bulb was too far from the plants.

 

[Glow]

Yep have to say that many years ago based on some info in a book I used a 24 hour vegetative cycle and then tried 18/6 to discover my plants were healthier and growth rate wise there was no difference. This basically meant running the lights 6 hours less (less power consumption) with a better outcome (healthier plants). Certainly under either scenario my plants were thin and stretched.