Development of cannabis-specific nute formulae (mostly salt-based)

[N1ghtL1ght]

How would a P abundancy manifest? I could lower it by using less MPK and more KS.
My pals over here use specific hydro-formulaes here, based on 5 more salts, and some citrates, just to keep S lower (55ppm).

I know the plant can deal with high S but I wonder about substrate salt buildup when things unused remain. It could take 3-4 days until what went in, drains out. It stands to reason I want to meet the plant's demands more closely.

Currently getting info on chelates, I found an old product that's based on Leonardite, +70% fulvics but 5% Fe & 15% K. Maybe interesting to integrate as well the BB Topmax is low on fulvics

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

Ok back to the drawing board.
More simple, reduced N, P... perhaps slightly adapted to be able to fertigate multiple times a day

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

>>Updated repost of post#23<<

BASE" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 123
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 159,5
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 145
Mg: 54,5
S: 102
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37

but adapting the following ingredients:

Ammonsulfate: 0,11g/l (+23 NH4, +26.5 S)

down to 12.5%:
Ammonsulfate: 0,01375g/l (+2,9 NH4, +3,3 S)
>> to have total NH4 under 10 mg/l and thus, should be less than a 10:1 ratio.

Then, reducing N further:

Calcium nitrate (Norwegian salpeter): 0,5g/l (= +72 NO3, +5,5 NH4, +94 Ca)

to
Calcium nitrate: 0,35g/l (= +50,5 NO3, +3,5 NH4, +66 Ca)
>> to have moderate to low total N levels.

Then reduce P by 33%

Mono-Potassiumphosphate: 0,33g/l (+76 K, +96 P)

to
Mono-Potassiumphosphate: 0,22g/l (+50,66 K, +64 P)
>> to have medium P

But now K is lower than Ca & N, so

Potassiumsulfate: 0,16g/l (+75 K, +32 S)

gets an increase to
Potassiumsulfate: 0,25g/l (+117 K, +50 S)
to be higher than both Ca & N.

I'm not really sure if this is a necessary step (K too high now?) in Cocos+ with high CEC?

Then, reducing Mg slightly, from

Epsomsalt: 0,4g/l (+39.5 Mg, +53 S)

to
Epsomsalt: 0,3g/l (+29.6 Mg, +39,8 S)

So, what does everyone think about the ratios of macronutes now, could that be a veg formulae?

Maybe micros are too high for veg?
Maybe could simplify further by throwing something out. But first gonna do some testing with the leonardite, it's quite much and so, could be a source for fulvics/Fe for some time.

Updated version containing all the above changes:
"LOW NPK" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 110
P: 64
K: 142
Ca: 117
Mg: 44,6
S: 65,6
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

BTW how is NPK declaration set in the states? Because, I'm seeing Bugbee et al oftentimes refering to 20-10-20 veg and 20-20-20 bloom, but here N is always given in elementary (pure) form while P & K are given as P2O5 or K2O. Meaning, these will get reduced by quite a chunk thus even in an equal NPK 2-2-2 elementary N is higher than elementary K....

?

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

'Humiron' update:

2,5% total N
16,1% total K
6% Fe
an unknown amount of S
(it's given for as in "freshmass").

Ingredients are:
Leonardite, Potassiumhumate, Ironsulfateheptahydrate, 54% organic substance.

There's 1mol S for every mol Fe from the Fe-(II) Sulfate.

I'm not really sure if the % numbers given refer to the elementary form so there a bit of a doubt remains of what follows...

1g/50l barrel = 1.2mg/l Fe, 3.2mg/l K, and 1mg/l N & S.
3g at the barrel would see Fe at 3.6mg/l fully satisfying as sole Fe source.

Just a trace (20-40mg) in 1l RO, it dissolves quickly and fully, and raises EC quite a bit.

Now running a few tests to see how that stuff behaves in a sterilized bottle together with my current barrel solution, or just RO.


Edit/ correction:
The linked article at Wiki explains the stuff must be actually rich in humics, not fulvics, like I claimed in a previous post.
Sad, the fulvics make better chelators...

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

"LOW NPK" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 110
P: 64
K: 142
Ca: 117
Mg: 44,6
S: 65,6
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37

Then, scratching the organic Biobizz ActiVera, as it seems I can use the Humiron in the preprepared stock-solution:

Biobizz ActiVera: 1ml/l (+3.5 Fe, +0.3 Mn, +0.2 B, +0.07 Zn, +0.03 Cu)

^^ minus this, instead add:

Humiron 2.5g/50l barrel = +2.8 Fe, +8 K, and +2.5 N & S.

I have zero information available on the nature of that N....

Just realize I have a calculation-error in the above total-N by -5,9, will be corrected here:

"Humics low-NPK" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5 (113?)
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 118,4
P: 64
K: 150
Ca: 117
Mg: 44,6
S: 68,1
Fe: 2,9
Mn: 0,7
B: 0,9
Zn: 0,63
Cu: 0,34

 

[Aqua Man]

Then, scratching the organic Biobizz ActiVera, as it seems I can use the Humiron in the preprepared stock-solution:

^^ minus this, instead add:

Humiron 2.5g/50l barrel = +2.8 Fe, +8 K, and +2.5 N & S.

I have zero information available on the nature of that N....

Just realize I have a calculation-error in the above total-N by -5,9, will be corrected here:

"Humics low-NPK" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5 (113?)
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 118,4
P: 64
K: 150
Ca: 117
Mg: 44,6
S: 68,1
Fe: 2,9
Mn: 0,7
B: 0,9
Zn: 0,63
Cu: 0,34

That looks much better… maybe a touch more mag sulfate. I think K is fine there.

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

That looks much better… maybe a touch more mag sulfate. I think K is fine there.

Alright, in that case I revert the previous Epsom-throttle and up by 25% again.

And I think I throw Biobizz Topmax out, too, because, the traces mix can do its job on micros and it's best to be as simplistic as possible for starters. Later stuff can still be added.

I'm actually wondering now about sugars & aminos in cocos....

 

[Aqua Man]

Alright, in that case I revert the previous Epsom-throttle and up by 25% again.

And I think I throw Biobizz Topmax out, too, because, the traces mix can do its job on micros and it's best to be as simplistic as possible for starters. Later stuff can still be added.

I'm actually wondering now about sugars & aminos in cocos....

Dexteose and L aminos from my understanding are a couple you may want to look at but i do t know enough to say anything definitive on them.

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

"Humics low-NPK" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5 (113?)
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 118,4
P: 64
K: 150
Ca: 117
Mg: 44,6
S: 68,1
Fe: 2,9
Mn: 0,7
B: 0,9
Zn: 0,63
Cu: 0,34

this one with Epsom slightly upped again:

Epsomsalt: 0,3g/l (+29.6 Mg, +39,8 S)

to
Epsomsalt: 0,4g/l (+39.5 Mg, +53 S)

Then, throw this out:

Biobizz TopMax: 1ml/l (+0.1 Fe, +0.1 B, +0.03 Zn)

instead, increase this

Canna Traces Mix: 0,1g/l (+0.06 Fe, +0.6 Mn, +0.3 B, +0.05 Cu, +0.3 Zn)

to
Canna Traces Mix: 0,15g/l (+0.09 Fe, +0.9 Mn, +0.45 B, +0.075 Cu, +0.45 Zn)

"Humics low-NPK no BB" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 101,5 (113?)
N-NH4: 6,4
N-urea: 8
N-total: 118,4
P: 64
K: 150
Ca: 117
Mg: 54,5
S: 81,3
Fe: 2,83
Mn: 1
B: 0,95
Zn: 0,75
Cu: 0,365

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

Dexteose and L aminos from my understanding are a couple you may want to look at but i do t know enough to say anything definitive on them.

I'm having a product called "Siapton" but the exact composition isn't given. Just gonna have to try it out.

At manixbotanix the author explained some aminoacid "glycinate" may be nice to complex (partially chelate) anions, like B.

The dextrose should be even way more efficient in a sterile environment, let's fatten up those sucker buds ;)

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

@Aqua Man
There's one thing I'm currently debating with a fellow cocos grower:

How much Ca will the coco "steal", and how much K will be released?

I'm having a number of studies and online sources, but some of the info is in conflict.
It boils down to - how quickly does coco decompose; how much new cation-exchange-sites are newgenerated (which would bind Ca for a K release)?

And - if nute companies released special "for coco" lines higher in Ca but lower K because they want them to work in unbuffered coco (or less optimal buffered coco) as well?
Because, as I see it (I take this data from studies) the washing and buffering greatly influences the amount of available Na, Cl, K, Ca & Mg in the substrat.

 

[Aqua Man]

@Aqua Man
There's one thing I'm currently debating with a fellow cocos grower:

How much Ca will the coco "steal", and how much K will be released?

I'm having a number of studies and online sources, but some of the info is in conflict.
It boils down to - how quickly does coco decompose; how much new cation-exchange-sites are newgenerated (which would bind Ca for a K release)?

And - if nute companies released special "for coco" lines higher in Ca but lower K because they want them to work in unbuffered coco (or less optimal buffered coco) as well?
Because, as I see it, and I take this data from studied, the washing and buffering greatly influences the amount of available Na, Cl, K, Ca & Mg in the substrat.

Most come prewashed and buffered these days. The CEC is much lower so since i use a high fertigation and low volume schedule the stability of nutrients is almost rock solid.

Quality of coco is key as you say. I use canna coco as its prewashed, buffered and certified pest free.

But to answer in short you dont need anymore Ca and dont need to worry about K and Na release if you are feeding often enough with adequate runoff. As each feed is a slight reset to the media.

My coco was done in 1 gal pots feeding as much as 250ml 14x a day over the light cycle and once over night as transpiration rates are very low absent of light.

I did a thread here that explains how i do it.

HOW TO WATER COCO FOR BEST RESULTS.

Ok writing this cause i see this issue often and rather have a thread to link than explain this each time. This is not my work but a collection of info from many members here and I have put into practice myself. So first off COCO is NOT soil. For best results we want to keep it saturated...

www.thcfarmer.com

 

[Madmax]

@Aqua Man
There's one thing I'm currently debating with a fellow cocos grower:

How much Ca will the coco "steal", and how much K will be released?

I'm having a number of studies and online sources, but some of the info is in conflict.
It boils down to - how quickly does coco decompose; how much new cation-exchange-sites are newgenerated (which would bind Ca for a K release)?

And - if nute companies released special "for coco" lines higher in Ca but lower K because they want them to work in unbuffered coco (or less optimal buffered coco) as well?
Because, as I see it, and I take this data from studied, the washing and buffering greatly influences the amount of available Na, Cl, K, Ca & Mg in the substrat.

I use cyco coco lite with canna classic nutes and coco steals fa ca.and im under leds only feeding up to 570-580 max.one feed a day..work that out lol..

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

Most come prewashed and buffered these days. The CEC is much lower so since i use a high fertigation and low volume schedule the stability of nutrients is almost rock solid.

Quality of coco is key as you say. I use canna coco as its prewashed, buffered and certified pest free.

But to answer in short you dont need anymore Ca and dont need to worry about K and Na release if you are feeding often enough with adequate runoff. As each feed is a slight reset to the media.

My coco was done in 1 gal pots feeding as much as 250ml 14x a day over the light cycle and once over night as transpiration rates are very low absent of light.

I did a thread here that explains how i do it.

HOW TO WATER COCO FOR BEST RESULTS.

Ok writing this cause i see this issue often and rather have a thread to link than explain this each time. This is not my work but a collection of info from many members here and I have put into practice myself. So first off COCO is NOT soil. For best results we want to keep it saturated...

www.thcfarmer.com

I use cyco lite with canna classic nutes and coco steals fa ca.and im under leds only feeding up to 570-580 max.one feed a day..work that out lol..

So my intention is to run big pots -24l-, and manually feed, and this can't be done more often than 1, or maybe, twice, a day.

So it's more like a peat-perlite setup but using cocos for medium, lower pH and mineralic salts, drain to waste.

I'd expect I have to feed way higher, starting from maybe EC 1.8 and drain more (30%) to get rid of the old nute solution...

?

 

[Madmax]

Thats alot of watering..I see nute buildup coming in that big of a pot.i use 4 gals plus i add more chunky perlite for better drainage..if i dont get 30% run off at minimum salt buildup gradually catches up and takes crazy amount of water to try and get it under control.that hasnt happened since i dropped from 5 to 4..im even thinking going 3 gals ..

 

[Aqua Man]

So my intention is to run big pots -24l-, and manually feed, and this can't be done more often than 1, or maybe, twice, a day.

So it's more like a peat-perlite setup but using cocos for medium, lower pH and mineralic salts, drain to waste.

I'd expect I have to feed way higher, starting from maybe EC 1.8 and drain more (30%) to get rid of the old nute solution...

?

In 5 gal id go 50/50 coco perlite and feed a litre per event. In that size pot you will likel range from once every 3 days to 2-3 times a day at peak if following the runoff I describe the n that thread

 

[Aqua Man]

When you do that you’ll be surprised its not much different just supplied at the right times to prevent buildup. But should always check run off late in the day and ideally it should be within 20% ppm of whats going in

 

[Aqua Man]

Im gonna throw @Madmax under the bus here lol.

Eg. He is not doing it wrong as he is getting the runoff needed to keep a stable media.

But if he fed more often the necessary run iff would be reduced and the rootzone would be more stable.

So his 30% runoff will make up the same volume used with 10% runoff fed the way i described.

So essentially im saying you will use the same anount of nutrient solution either way to keep the root zone from buildup, ph issues etc. the difference is the stability. The rootzone will be more stable day to day, hour to hour the way I described.

Thats not to say he is doing it wrong by any means

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

The guy I'm talking to reports run-off is 50% less of feedstrength. his plants are little in veg as of yet and get 1 daily handwatering. but will change to an automatic system multiple feeds a day once the mainlining for a SOG is complete...

My idea is to increase buffering via the zeolith, vermiculite.

I gotta be more on point with the nute formulae to have less buildup, as the plant takes it

Maybe it could be done to start with an amount of water followed by the feed solution, the initial water just ment to drain more out...?

But, wouldn't the plant, when fed less often, actually grab more nute ions per interval? as there is more time...

I forgot to say I'll start in a small container and pot up several times - 1l, 3.5l, 11l then 24l. So there will mostly be roots everywhere in the medium.