Do You Use Caps Bennies While Cloning?

[juggernaut]

For my cloner I usually run tap water and add H2O2 and superthrive.

Should I switch to RO water and lose the H2O2?

 

[cctt]

Should I switch to RO water and lose the H2O2?

If you want to use bennies then yes, these are both good ideas.

 

[Disambiguator]

Depending upon your tap water profile, filtered water can also save you potential problems downstream, particularly if you are growing in soil and the calcium ppm in your source is high. Calcium carbonate, the most common form of calcium found in tap water, is a large, relatively immobile molecule that can build up and cause a calcium log jam if over applied. Rectifying calcified soil in containers is a real pita.
Echoing what cctt said, H2O2 and microbes do not get along well together.

 

[neverbreak]

i would think about dropping the superthrive too. naa, the plant hormone in it, might not go well with bennies. i'm just guessing, but generally it's the fewer chems the better with mycorrhizas.

neverbreak

 

[Capulator]

What kind of water temperature do you run in the cloner? With a res full of bennies do they even need it as cold as without?

75-80 is fine.

What kind of water temperature do you run in the cloner? With a res full of bennies do they even need it as cold as without?

 

[click80]

Depending upon your tap water profile, filtered water can also save you potential problems downstream, particularly if you are growing in soil and the calcium ppm in your source is high. Calcium carbonate, the most common form of calcium found in tap water, is a large, relatively immobile molecule that can build up and cause a calcium log jam if over applied. Rectifying calcified soil in containers is a real pita.
Echoing what cctt said, H2O2 and microbes do not get along well together.

I am not seeing any buildups in my soil since switching my moms back to RO water. My water is only 150ppm, but it must all be calcium from the difference I am seeing by checking my runoff. It was def a PITA.

 

[click80]

Caps bennies are of major benefit when rooting in Rapid Rooters also. I am only using the ready mix recipe which is one teaspoon/liter of the root and nute (nute not necessary) pack. I only add in about one teaspoon/liter of Hormex and I am seeing roots pop the side of the rooter in 3-5 days. They are big, furry, healthy ass roots too, not thin and translucent.

Highly recommend using his bennies for cloning, not only for rooting but to give your plant a way more healthy vibrant start. Which does more affectively bring out the positive genetics in any strain. Environment affects gene expression. Big lesson i learned. Healthy mom+Healthy clone+Healthy environment equals healthy plants and in turn healthy yields.

 

[cctt]

Calcium carbonate, the most common form of calcium found in tap water, is a large, relatively immobile molecule that can build up and cause a calcium log jam if over applied.

I haven't heard this about calcium carbonate before. Can you point me to more information? My current calcium supplement is GH's CaliMagic, which uses calcium carbonate, rather than calcium nitrate. Once dissolved in water aren't the cations and anions effectively separate, anyway?

 

[click80]

I haven't heard this about calcium carbonate before. Can you point me to more information? My current calcium supplement is GH's CaliMagic, which uses calcium carbonate, rather than calcium nitrate. Once dissolved in water aren't the cations and anions effectively separate, anyway?

I went through this before, I think in the Advanced Techniques section, and got schooled on a couple things.

It has to do with total alkalinity (different from just a plain Ph reading) and the techniques involved in water purification in water treatment plants. I don't understand totally the chemistry but I did get the gist of it. It is not the calcium carbonate alone which when it precipitates out of solution causes the main problem, but has to do with the flocculation additives (and process). I didn't go farther on it than that because my chem knowledge is only first year. It is not the same problem as with sulfate and chloride coupounds.

There are ways to alleviate it, my choice was to just go back to RO since I am not doing hydro at the moment. There are many variables to it. If it's not causing a problem I would not worry about it. Even with my tap water the problems only arose with my older moms. I have since changed to a more frequent turnover of moms.

 

[Disambiguator]

Good stuff here.
Here are some excerpts from the notes that I've been gathering on Ca for a little primer. Consider this a rough draft- much is borrowed from other sources and hasn't been reworked and synthesized yet. I'm open to and encourage being corrected If I (or the sources) are getting the science wrong.

- Calcium perhaps plays more roles in the overall health of both the plant and the soil than any other nutrient. As Dr. Albrecht explains it in his volumes of research, if we get the calcium right in the soil, most of our work is done.”

- When calcium is added to the nitrogen, the N absorption is increased within the plant. While promoting stronger cell walls and helping in root and leaf development, this component is essential for proper growth. Making phosphorous and micronutrients readily available, our calcium is unique in that it is designed to release nutrients and minerals that are in soil, making them immediately available to the plant. Available calcium determines the uptake of all other nutrients into the plant.

- Calcium is always used as CA2+ within plants, but each form of calcium has a different absorption co-efficient meaning that each form of calcium is absorbed into the cell at different rates and each requires different mechanics for the cell to take it in. Each method requires more or less energy for the cell to exert to do so.

- The most typical form of calcium in untreated water is calcium carbonate which is virtually unusable by fast growing plants because the molecules are far too large and immobile to be absorbed by the roots and transported to where the plant needs them.

- When there is too much Ca already in the untreated source water being used as the base to the nutrient formula it can cause the good Ca in the plant food to become unavailable. These molecules try to go through roots and up into the plant where they can be used. Because the molecules are too large to be absorbed efficiently, they end up accumulating on the outside of the roots. This causes a log jam that can lock out the good forms of Ca that you are trying to feed them. Using more than one form of calcium is good business practice.

- The most common cause of Ca deficiency is related to poor translocation of calcium to/through plant tissue rather than a low external supply of calcium. Calcium may be available externally but it is in the wrong form for the plant to absorb readily. The plant is dependent upon microbial activity to break down large Ca molecules into a form that it can metabolize.

Main Info Source: Humboldt Nutrients
_______________________

- In organic growing, naturals chelates, including humic and fulvic acid, organic amino acids or those derived from micro-organism based chelation processes are used to break down and “fix” molecules into forms that facilitate plant uptake.

- Plants need calcium for cell wall development and growth. Pathogens attack weak cell walls to invade a plant, and stronger cell wall structure avoids this. Plants need calcium for enzyme activity, metabolism, and for nitrate (a usable form of nitrogen) uptake. Calcium and phosphorus are often found together. Plants need phosphorus to grow strong and healthy, for moisture regulation, photosynthesis, respiration, and metabolism. Weak and spindly plants often indicate the plants are not taking up enough phosphorus and calcium. Of course, there are other factors affecting plant growth such as pH imbalance, high sodium, over- and under-watering, poor drainage (humus can help with this), lack of oxygen (from compaction, and lack of organic material), and temperature stress. The ratio of calcium to magnesium is said to be a factor, but I have seen no research indicating such when considering the calcium form necessary for best plant uptake. Too much sodium in the soil can also bind up calcium and make it unavailable to plants.

Soil tests will tell you if you have the correct pH and if the soil is too acidic, a recommendation to apply lime will be included. Generally, a lime application such as “high calcium” lime, dolomitic lime, and gypsum (calcium sulfate) will contain calcium in forms not readily available for plants’ immediate use. My recent soil test showed very high levels of calcium, and the pH is also a little higher than I prefer. However, I know from watching my plant growth that most of the calcium in my soil is not available to my plants. My solution after lots of research, is to apply a soft rock phosphate which is colloidal phosphate: a highly soluble natural source of phosphate and calcium. Soft Rock Phosphate will aid greatly in raising Brix in your garden. (I use CalPhos but there are others available.) Soft rock phosphate is not the same as rock phosphate, Tennessee Brown Rock phosphate, or hard rock phosphate. All those do contain calcium and phosphorus, but in soft rock phosphate the calcium and phosphorus are in a colloidal form and thus readily available.

Soft rock phosphates are only mined in a few parts of this country, notably Florida where they were laid down eons ago by bony marine animals. Soft rock phosphate also comes from the process of washing rock phosphates of the colloidal compound on the phosphate surface when they are mined. I heard there is a recent calcium find in the Nevada desert thought to be a superior form of calcium, made from marine plant life, but it is not widely available. It is marketed as Kelzyme.

________________________

These are the permitted organic Ca sources that I pulled off of OMRI's materials list:

CALCIUM CARBONATE
Status: Allowed
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description:
Includes oystershell flour, dolomite (not slaked), aragonite, and mined limestone (CaCO3).
NOP Rule: 205.203(d)(2) A mined substance of low solubility.

CALCIUM CARBONATE, MAGNESIUM CARBONATE; DOLOMITE – MINED SOURCE
Status: Allowed
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description:
Magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate. May cause build-up of magnesium. See also MINED MINERALS – UNPROCESSED.
NOP Rule: 205.203(d)(2) A Mined substance of low solubility.

CALCIUM PHOSPHATES (ie tricalcium phospate- Ca3(PO4)2)
Status: Allowed
Class: Processing Non-agricultural Ingredients and Processing Aids
Origin: Synthetic Nonagricultural
Description:
Includes mono-, di-, and tri-calcium phosphates [INS 341(i), (ii), and (iii)].
NOP Rule: 205.605(b)

CALCIUM CHLORIDE
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description:
Nonsynthetic sources only (from brine process). Restricted to use as a foliar spray to treat a physiological disorder associated with calcium uptake.
NOP Rule: Calcium chloride, brine process is natural and prohibited for use except as a foliar spray to treat a physiological disorder associated with calcium uptake.

CALCIUM SULFATE- GYPSUM – MINED SOURCE
Status: Allowed
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description:
Calcium sulfate; only mined forms are acceptable. See also GYPSUM BY-PRODUCTS and MINED MINERALS – UNPROCESSED.
NOP Rule: 205.203(d)(2) A mined substance of low solubility.

CALCIUM LIGNOSULFONATE
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Crop Management Tools and Production Aids
Origin: Synthetic
Description:
May be used as a chelating agent, dust supressant, and flotation agent as a plant or soil amendment or as a flotation agent in postharvest handling. May be used as either an adjuvant or inert ingredient in combination with active pesticidal ingredients [excluding 25(b) exempt pesticides]. See also INERTS – LIST 4 and LIGNIN SULFONATES. Also known as "lignosulfonic acid, calcium salt."
NOP Rule: 205.601(j)(4) & 205.601(l)(1)
_______________________

 

[Disambiguator]

^^

I haven't heard this about calcium carbonate before. Can you point me to more information? My current calcium supplement is GH's CaliMagic, which uses calcium carbonate, rather than calcium nitrate. Once dissolved in water aren't the cations and anions effectively separate, anyway?

 

[click80]

Great post and good info. One of the questions I have had about using organic nutes is how to provide the calcium and magnesium? I use Age Old and it does not contain any measurable quantities so i use the Gen Hydro Calmag plus Org w/molasses or just add in Bot. CalMag plus, plus I add in Epsom periodically and that seems to be sufficient. I have heard that people frequently overestimate the amount a healthy plant in soil needs. I have also heard that this causes a lot of deficiencies through lockout? Your article seems to substantiate this.

I should add that I use very little CalMag plus of either brand. I always watch my leaf tips, calcium is very important (I don't know why, maybe because they get more exposure with less tissue) to leaf tips. I have heard this from more than one source, so I use this for a first sign of calcium trouble.

 

[Disambiguator]

One of the best ways to gain first hand experience w/ macro- and micro-nutrient deficiency symptoms (and some overdose symptoms, too) is to over calcify your soil. In severe cases, the chronically high pH will lock out K, Mg and most of your micro-nutrients and, as if to rub it in, you'll see Ca deficiencies, too. Throw 4x the normal dose of Ca into your soil, get out the Mulder Chart and have fun. been there, done that. lol!

 

[click80]

I think that every time I have had deficiency problems it has been from over calcification. Has always been with moms, and always when I used tap over a period of time.

 

[cctt]

I find it odd that CaCO3 is called "virtually unusable by fast growing plants" because, again, that's what I'm dumping in my water, and the plants seem to do just fine. I've seen deficiencies when trying to pull back on its rate, before, as well. Coir may be responsible for that.

This thread has gone off-topic. Sorry about that.

 

[Disambiguator]

There are some areas there that I'm still nailing down. I have the same question. I think the main point we are addressing is tap water, specifically, tap water as a substrate for cloning w/ cap's nutes.
When there is too much Ca already in the untreated source water being used as the base to the nutrient formula it can cause the good Ca in the plant food to become unavailable.

In a feed-water-dry 12 week cycle the plants will be watered approx 56 times. If you water/feed everyday, your plants will be hit up approx 84 times w/ water and whatever minerals it contains. My tap water’s CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate) is in the 200-300 ppm range which makes RO’d a prerequisite to container growing. But even if your tap water is @ 100 ppm CaCO3, that’s a lot of calcium to be throwing into container soil over a a 3-4 month span. An average of 70 waterings a run @ approx 50 ppm Ca = 3500 ppm Ca from the tap.

Calcium carbonate is not a bad guy. It’s my, and most other organic grower’s primary calcium source. The problem arises when there’s too much build-up of a good thing in the soil. By diversifying our Ca sources and the composite forms that our CaCO3 comes in, we can buffer our soil and microbes from from back-ups that can be caused by a calcium “monoculture.” At, least that’s my understanding. Different Ca molecules, different mined and organic calcium carbonate sources.

Here’s the results of a pH test I did awhile back of 5 different calcium sources. The numbers are specific to my products, and product batches. Crab meal and oyster shell flour properties can change from bag to bag, even when they come from the same source.

1:8 nutrient : water (RO’d ), bubbled and tested @ 15 minutes:

Cal Phos (Soft Rock Phosphate) 20% Ca- 7.1 pH; no change
Micronized Nutra-Min** - 1% Ca- 6.9 pH; -0.2
Dolomite- 46% CaCO3 (22.7% Ca)- 9.4 pH; +2.3
Oyster Shell Flour- 95% CaCO3 (approx 46% Ca)- 8.7 pH; +1.6
Crab Shell Meal- 19% Ca - 8.4 pH; +1.3
** hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, bentonite, kaolin

Tying this back to microbes, soil mixes and teas, a system that relies on dolomite, oyster shell flour and/or crab shell meal for primary Ca sources will likely have a pH that will readjust upward faster than one would like and have a bacteria weighted culture that’s in need of more fungi.

Of course this is all in the context of organic soil growing.

 

[Disambiguator]

Sorry about the lengthy sidebars, friends. I'm currently working on the calcium chapter of a little science primer for growers project and got carried away. I know that cctt got more verbiage than what he was expecting. lol np. I'll bale for awhile.

 

[Disambiguator]

I find it odd that CaCO3 is called "virtually unusable by fast growing plants" because, again, that's what I'm dumping in my water...

hey cctt, my take on GH's CaliMagic- the chelated iron, (Fe DTPA), is a chemical means of countering the CaCO3's high pH and bringing the solution into a medium range. In my system, I get iron from different kelp products and other natural resources that bring a lot more to the table than one micro-nutrient. Fe DTPA, like CaCO3, equates w/ "wasted calories" in my line of thinking - there are better ways to get iron and calcium into the mix than as an additive to cal-mag or from tap water, respectively.

If the car ain't broken, don't fix it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some better models around worth looking into. I'm always on the lookout.

 

[OCKushCollector]

Caps bennies are of major benefit when rooting in Rapid Rooters also. I am only using the ready mix recipe which is one teaspoon/liter of the root and nute (nute not necessary) pack. I only add in about one teaspoon/liter of Hormex and I am seeing roots pop the side of the rooter in 3-5 days. They are big, furry, healthy ass roots too, not thin and translucent.

Highly recommend using his bennies for cloning, not only for rooting but to give your plant a way more healthy vibrant start. Which does more affectively bring out the positive genetics in any strain. Environment affects gene expression. Big lesson i learned. Healthy mom+Healthy clone+Healthy environment equals healthy plants and in turn healthy yields.

Do you brew the ready mix formula you speak of, or just mix with water? I will take cuttings in the next day or two and I have rapid rooters and caps bennies on hand. It will be my first attempt at cloning. Do you soak the rapid rooters in the formula before hand, as well as water with it? I just have a plain seedling/clone tray with humidity dome.

 

[click80]

I don't feel like cleaning my garage so I am going to do this sort of detailed. lol If you know a lot of this don't take it the wrong way just trying to be thorough. I had a hard time with cloning. I am frigging great at it now.

First off, make sure your Mom is fully hydrated and as healthy as can be, this is critical to cloning success. I have cloned stressed moms and they turn out fine but usually require some babying to get the clones to root and revive.

I mix one teaspoon of root and nute (nute not necessary but if I have it I use it) per liter of water, I usually make a half gallon...I do bubble it for about an hour. I think it helps bring them out of stasis, but this is not going to hurt you. Okay, soak your rooters for about fifteen minutes. I stay clean clean clean. I always have a bleach mixture on hand and I spray on my hands and forearms, wash hands in warn soapy water first, wipe on or spray bleach on hands, cutting tools, surfaces you will be using etc.....

I use a 50 space cloner tray, like the kind you can buy the rapid rooters already in, I only put in 25 per tray, I keep one space in between each rooter. So one row will have three, next one two...etc.

I cut my clones a little long but with a healthy mom this is also not a deal breaker. I don't split the cut, I use sharp trimmers, cut my clone, trim off all but top two SETS of leaves. This used to confuse me when I read this in books. Here is the science.... When you clone you immediately put the cut into emergency survival mode. It only wants to root, and only needs minimal light, high humidity and enough sugar to do rooting. It gets the sugars by using chlorophyll in the leaves and converts it to sugar and uses stored sugars, the top two sets of leaves will supply this. So keeping a bunch of leaves on actually stresses it as it has to also try and keep those leaves healthy while it's rooting. The two sets of leaves will be the growing tip plus the first two nodes under it. If you are confused about this message me. You should only have the growing tip and two fan leaves opposite each other directly under the growing tip. Again this will not make or break your cloning attempt but it just has helped me to keep all my cuts uniform. I have virtually no yellowing of leaves doing it this way.

So I take my cut using sharp trimmers, I cut the nodes of up to the last two sets as I previously explained. I leave at least an 1/8 inch of stub off every node just like when pruning a tree. This reduces the area contaminants can enter through. Now you can do each cut individually, I do, or you can do a bunch, or all your cuts, put them in a Solo cup with some of the bennie mixture (preferably) that you made or tap water. I use RO personally, again this is just preference. One other thing, I replaced my t5's in my cloning cabinet with old school t12's, cool white tube fixture. Much more gentle on clones. I don't care what people say, I get healthier clones with these lights or if all you have is a T5 or CFL make the light indirect if you can or raise it at least a good 12" away from clones. Just my opinion.

Okay, take your cut and have gel ready (or whatever you prefer) I can tell you that I feel Clonex gel is the best. It has a ideal IBA percentage. 3000 ppm. First, I use an exacto knife with a new blade or a scalpel, trim the last two nodes of even with the stem and also cut the end of the stem at 45 degrees. I immediately dip it in the gel, hold it over the rooter hole and let one or two drops of gel go into rooter, redip clone and stick that mother in there. I then take tweezers and push about three pieces of Rapid Rooter down into hole. After filling tray up, I immediately cover with a dome with vents in top, you know the taller Mondi domes, about $6 apiece, and I keep the vents closed for three days. I take it off about two to three times a day for fresh air but the clones require hardly any air, humidity is way more important. I open the vents up on the third day and let it go for about 3 more days before I even check for roots. Don't keep pulling the rooters in and out, like I used to, it's a bad habit and when they do root you will break roots almost everytime you take one out and put back in.

Okay hope that wasn't too detailed.