Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

ilaughlast · Jul 18, 2014

no surprise to a lot of folks on here but i took a dudded og to a lab and it tested negative for phytoplasmas. im submitting again for the various tomoviruses., they tested a nondud that had the swirly verigation. it was a wifi the y tested it with a serum test then sent to microscopy lab and found zero viruses of any kind including all the tomviruses hempstreak etc.
the dud did test positive for pythium but they didnt specify the strain and they also sad they didntthink it was a problem. they said it was normal to find it. maybe its just pythium or maybe we will see some tmv or some similar virus ill keep you up dated. we are resubmitting because they didnt get enough leaf in the original sample to test for viruses.

Bangarang · Jul 18, 2014

I am really curious to see what the cause of this is. I have seen this happen to every genetic over time. A couple of months ago i split the stalks of the dud branches and found skid marks in the middle of the duds.
I have been dealing with RA's off and on for some time now. I just assumed that those little F#@kers were spreading some virus.

ilaughlast · Jul 19, 2014

i was certain it was phytoplasma. im glad its not but it leaves us in the dark. if its pythium im kinda surprised but its a pretty simple fix id think. ridomil maybe? if not which is what id be willing to bet again im going with a tomovirus or a otherwise not understood genetic aberation of realtively new origin.

We Solidarity · Jul 20, 2014

Greyskull said:
soooooooooooooo
is this thread that was once chock full of action D-E-D.... or what?

no updates/theories?????

delae632 said:
Just waiting patiently for @We Solidarity to get his lab results. Hopefully he'll chime in with 'em soon.

aye guys - sorry I totally dropped this thread. The lab proposed a rather large and involving procedure which was too expensive and time consuming to adhere to.

As far as the most stable theory, it appears to simply be a reaction from the plant to extreme stress and possibly to pathogenic attacks as well, after being more sterile with cloners (changing water at least three times in cycles), watering in a little less at transplant, and also not cloning off moms that are more than 4 months old, there is not a dud to be seen. Strange phenomenon, gotta chalk it up to trying to keep a perennial plant alive for longer than a year.

manicgrower · Jul 20, 2014

Id have to agree with your assumption WS..

ilaughlast · Jul 21, 2014

doesnt explain why this just started popping up and why it can occur with seed plants too. josey wales just reported a dudded seed plant popped up in his room. theres nothing new about old moms and bad cloning practices. yet we just started seeing people reporting this in the middle to late part of last decade. so all the cultural isssues overffedding watering cuttings ,old moms etc dont account for that very critical part of the issue. why is it relatively new?

We Solidarity said:
aye guys - sorry I totally dropped this thread. The lab proposed a rather large and involving procedure which was too expensive and time consuming to adhere to.

As far as the most stable theory, it appears to simply be a reaction from the plant to extreme stress and possibly to pathogenic attacks as well, after being more sterile with cloners (changing water at least three times in cycles), watering in a little less at transplant, and also not cloning off moms that are more than 4 months old, there is not a dud to be seen. Strange phenomenon, gotta chalk it up to trying to keep a perennial plant alive for longer than a year.

Dunge · Jul 21, 2014

We Solidarity said:
The lab proposed a rather large and involving procedure which was too expensive and time consuming to adhere to.

This is what it is.

Heightened pathogen awareness and sterile practices are the take away messages for me.
Hope I don't need them, because I'm bad at both.

nightmarecreature · Jul 25, 2014

Im chalking my problem down as Fusarium.

I watered all my plants for four days straight with pure water, some of them had foam in the coco even after the fourth day.

I've found brown rings on some of my plants at the root crown. When I cut the stem in half, only the bottom part of some plants had brown streaks, the top half is always bright white when cut open.

I have been using Caps Bennies for a bit now and it does not seem to be helping.
I have Eagle 20 but Ive never used it.

One way to stop it from spreading to other plants, is to not let your pots touch the floor. Elevate your pots off the ground with a brick or bucket because the runoff seems to be how the others get infected. Taking fresh cuts of each strain and sterilizing everything is a step in the right direction. If its a fungus, treat the roots like an open wound.

nightmarecreature · Jul 26, 2014

If you get no wilting but symptoms of yellowing, usually on one side of the plant on the lower leaves, You probably have fusarium. It looks like this.

nightmarecreature · Jul 26, 2014

Prochloraz is effective against FO post infection. I'm searching for products that contain Prochloraz. Spotless is a food preservative that contains Prochloraz but it might have to be ordered from China. If anyone knows where to buy a fungicide that contains Prochloraz, please let me know. Chronos 45, Mirage 45 and Omega might be hard to get.

prochlorazEC450 g/l2Chronos 45 EC5589Makhteshim-Agan SA (Pty) Ltd
prochlorazEC450 g/l2Mirage 45 EC5544Makhteshim-Agan SA (Pty) Ltd
prochlorazEC450 g/l2Omega3331Bayer

"In presented research, six fungicides; benomyl, carbendazim, prochloraz, fludioxonil, bromuconazole and azoxystrobin, were evaluated for their efficacy against the disease casual agent Fusarium oxysporum"

"Prochloraz and bromuconazole were the most effective fungicides against the pathogen both in vitro and in vivo" 2010

"bromuconazole were shown to be phototoxic to tomato seedlings"

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC36352

nightmarecreature · Jul 30, 2014

I'm having a hard time finding Prochloraz. Tebuconazole can be ordered for less than $200.

"As for five fungicides, the EC50 of tebuconazole was 10.02 mg x L(-1), 92.50 times as much as carbendazim. The EC50 of myclobutanil and Fuxing was 91.23, 96.68 mg x L(-1), respectively. Tebuconazole showed the most tremendous inhibitory effect and control efficiency on F. oxysporum.'

nightmarecreature · Jul 30, 2014

Here's a master list of Fungicides that contain Prochloraz.

Prochloraz:
'Abavit' (Aventis); 'Ascurit' (Aventis); 'Octave' (Aventis); 'Omega' (Aventis); 'Orbit' (Aventis); 'Prelude' (Aventis); 'Rival' (Aventis); 'Sporgon' (Aventis); 'Sprint' (Aventis); 'Alpha Mirage 40' (Makhteshim-Agan); 'Barclay Eyetak' (Barclay); 'Fungi' (Stefes); 'Master' (Vapco); 'Stefes Poraz' (Stefes) mixtures: 'Allure' (+ chlorothalonil) (Aventis); 'Evidan' (+ fluquinconazole) (Aventis); 'Foil' (+ fluquinconazole) (Aventis); 'Fongral' (+ bromuconazole) (Aventis); 'Nordika' (+ fenbuconazole) (Aventis); 'Novak' (+ carbendazim) (Aventis); 'Profile' (+ cyproconazole) (Aventis); 'Sportak Delta' (+ cyproconazole) (Aventis); 'Sportak Plus' (+ fluquinconazole) (Aventis); 'Sprint HF' (+ fenpropimorph) (Aventis); 'Stanza' (+ fenpropimorph) (Aventis); 'Tiptor' (+ cyproconazole) (f Aventis); 'Agate' (+ tebuconazole) (spray, UK) (Bayer); 'Bonanza' (+ tetraconazole) (Sipcam Phyteurop); 'Bumper P' (+ propiconazole) (Makhteshim-Agan); 'Diams' (+ tebuconazole) (spray, France) (Bayer); 'Épopée' (+ tebuconazole) (spray, France) (Bayer); 'Mirage Extra' (+ fenbuconazole) (PBI, Makhteshim-Agan); 'Mirage Plus' (+ folpet) (Makhteshim-Agan); 'Mirage Super' (+ fenpropimorph) (Makhteshim-Agan)

ilaughlast · Jul 31, 2014

stem nematodes have now been observes in duds by members on another site. one person looked at his freshly cut stem and found them. he posted and another member with a dud went and opend the cambium layer of his stem and confirmed his also had them. amazing revelation. please anyone reading this with duds on hand with access to 200x mag or better go look or contact a$l labs for a diagnosis.
we may be getting somewhere.

ilaughlast · Jul 31, 2014

this explains why one of or more of these diseases are often presesnt in plants with dudding symptoms yet dont by themselves explain whats going on. they are secondary to the underlying nematode problem.

whatthe215 · Aug 2, 2014

i was the second member to find them. i took the sample from a dudded plant at day 32 while cutting down a whole room mostly infected.

i took the sample from the bottom 2" of stem, nearest to the coco. i found em in one of the outer layers of the stem not in the center.

if ya got duds, grab a compound microscope and take a took at 200x. do it while freshly cut, the moisture in the stem will make it easier to see them moving around. microscopic eels flopping around.

WeedGod · Aug 2, 2014

whatthe215 said:
i was the second member to find them. i took the sample from a dudded plant at day 32 while cutting down a whole room mostly infected.

i took the sample from the bottom 2" of stem, nearest to the coco. i found em in one of the outer layers of the stem not in the center.

if ya got duds, grab a compound microscope and take a took at 200x. do it while freshly cut, the moisture in the stem will make it easier to see them moving around. microscopic eels flopping around.

Any idea how they are spreading? I got duds but no micro, may be able to borrow one this week.

whatthe215 · Aug 3, 2014

WeedGod said:
Any idea how they are spreading? I got duds but no micro, may be able to borrow one this week.

no i'm not 100% sure. I'd guess that they spread and infect new plants primarily during cloning. They could be in runoff, so bad drainage could help them move from plant to plant. Also splashing water, if they are in one plant and you get a bit of splash back or some excess coco on your watering wand... then move to the next plant they will move with it. Also can move up the stem via splashing water or very high humidity + plants touching <<< like cloning.

I also just wanna add that this isn't 100% confirmed yet. This is just two guys with dud issues finding nematodes in our stems. If a few more people with non Broad Mite related dud issues confirmed nematodes then we can call it case closed.

delae632 · Aug 3, 2014

whatthe215 said:
no i'm not 100% sure. I'd guess that they spread and infect new plants primarily during cloning. They could be in runoff, so bad drainage could help them move from plant to plant. Also splashing water, if they are in one plant and you get a bit of splash back or some excess coco on your watering wand... then move to the next plant they will move with it. Also can move up the stem via splashing water or very high humidity + plants touching <<< like cloning.

I also just wanna add that this isn't 100% confirmed yet. This is just two guys with dud issues finding nematodes in our stems. If a few more people with non Broad Mite related dud issues confirmed nematodes then we can call it case closed.

Just ordered a 40x-1000x compound usb scope online. If I find nematodes I'll post up some pics.

Thanks for the info.

EveryOneSmokes · Aug 3, 2014

whatthe215 said:
no i'm not 100% sure. I'd guess that they spread and infect new plants primarily during cloning. They could be in runoff, so bad drainage could help them move from plant to plant. Also splashing water, if they are in one plant and you get a bit of splash back or some excess coco on your watering wand... then move to the next plant they will move with it. Also can move up the stem via splashing water or very high humidity + plants touching <<< like cloning.

I also just wanna add that this isn't 100% confirmed yet. This is just two guys with dud issues finding nematodes in our stems. If a few more people with non Broad Mite related dud issues confirmed nematodes then we can call it case closed.

I'm not sure this is the same case for me, this would mean that every plant in a bed would suffer, and in my expierence it has not been such.. I have had one or two dud'd plants in flower and the issue has not spread, and the near by plants usually take over the dud'd canopy space... Although I have had the issue spread while cloning..

A member of the community had a strain dud on him in similar fashion and tested it for Pythium (amongst other issues) , the test can back positive for Pythium, the lab also keep it for further tmv testing.. But as far as I'm concerned Pythium fits the bill... I'll see if he can provide us with more info to his findings..

@whatthe215 could it be u had a combination of issues, Pythium and nematodes, because from the looks of the room u mentioned they did not look dud'd but they did look affected with something.. I wonder if nematodes can knock out a how room in that fashion...

whatthe215 · Aug 4, 2014

you couldn't tell they were duds from the room shots i posted. 70% were classic duds, light green small leaves on tops + lack of ANY frost or smell. snapping branches the whole 9. i shoulda taken more up close photos.

i'm sure it was a combination of things. there was root rot in that room forsure which certainly contributed... i mean 3 trays wilted overnight.

my guess:
the nematodes probably caused the duds, then started wrecking havoc on the root systems + pythium (and maybe other pathogens) infiltrated the plants and caused the rapid wilting and dying off of plants.

@EveryOneSmokes if you get another obvious dud in veg hmu and i'll let ya borrow my microscope.

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

ilaughlast

Bangarang

ilaughlast

We Solidarity

manicgrower

Premium Member

ilaughlast

Dunge

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

ilaughlast

ilaughlast

whatthe215

WeedGod

whatthe215

delae632

IG @delae_632

EveryOneSmokes

whatthe215

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

ilaughlast

Bangarang

ilaughlast

We Solidarity

manicgrower

Premium Member

ilaughlast

Dunge

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

nightmarecreature

ilaughlast

ilaughlast

whatthe215

WeedGod

whatthe215

delae632

IG @delae_632

EveryOneSmokes

whatthe215

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