Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

CannaTech · Apr 16, 2015

true grit said:
This is not a new thing imo. To think it just popped up is not the case, it seems growers have been dealing with it for some time just not always described as such or called duds.

@Spider- As stated earlier in the posts- it doesn't spread. Ive had perfectly healthy plants dud a few branches in flower from what I believe to be stress. Like i already said as well- no mites, no issues, etc. Doesn't spread from a dud veg plant to any others either. The veg duds i talked about spotting were a total of 2 plants and 1 I received already looking dud. In flower the plants I describe dud'ing have been a total of 5-6... over how many years?

The reality is growers have been dealing with it for some time, what most growers do is just throw that plant away or write it off- oh well. Prior to the topic coming up i would say fuck it, genetic drift etc because there is "0" consistency, it never spread, and rarely ever repeated itself. Now that its a topic of concern more people are talking about it and realizing certain genetics etc are more prone to do it. Definitely will be helpful to figure out the cause.

Last dud branch i found in flower was on a perfectly healthy wifi27, the branch simply was hidden under the canopy and received little to no light until i spotted it late in flower- just one branch that obviously was stressed and in evidently dud prone genetic. So that plants was 100% healthy going in and coming out- even threw down some of best bud that round. Just random mystery dud action.

In the world of genetics plants and animals alike can have late coming gene expression. in other words, it is possible for this plant to start expressing specific genetic mutations in later parts of its life. If this is happening to a high % of the clones from your mother I would suggest flowering out the mom and being done with the strain. If your mom does it, there is your issue.

Its not uncommon to get mutations that occur in this manor. The reason why it is so rampant is due to so many people back crossing with the same genetics. It is more than likely a recessive trait it had received (by any number of its parents) that gets triggered by an environmental factor.

If you like your strain and do not want to give it up, try crossing it with some better genetics and breed the recessive trait out. Although it could be a dominant trait within this genotype and there for it will take quite a bit of crossing to get rid of it. So, you will want to cross it with a plant that had good genetics atleast 3 generations to make sure that the gene expression is gone.(3 times will not remove it, it will only make it even more recessive. It takes a LOT of crossing to get it out of the gene pool)

My suggestion would be talk to other farmers and get a genetics list going of dudded plants and find the culprit strain that muddied down your genetics. in Wifi I would assume it came from The White's side of the family. Aka Triangle Kush,

Hope that helps.

true grit · Apr 16, 2015

CannaTech said:
In the world of genetics plants and animals alike can have late coming gene expression. in other words, it is possible for this plant to start expressing specific genetic mutations in later parts of its life. If this is happening to a high % of the clones from your mother I would suggest flowering out the mom and being done with the strain. If your mom does it, there is your issue.

Its not uncommon to get mutations that occur in this manor. The reason why it is so rampant is due to so many people back crossing with the same genetics. It is more than likely a recessive trait it had received (by any number of its parents) that gets triggered by an environmental factor.

If you like your strain and do not want to give it up, try crossing it with some better genetics and breed the recessive trait out. Although it could be a dominant trait within this genotype and there for it will take quite a bit of crossing to get rid of it. So, you will want to cross it with a plant that had good genetics atleast 3 generations to make sure that the gene expression is gone.(3 times will not remove it, it will only make it even more recessive. It takes a LOT of crossing to get it out of the gene pool)

My suggestion would be talk to other farmers and get a genetics list going of dudded plants and find the culprit strain that muddied down your genetics. in Wifi I would assume it came from The White's side of the family. Aka Triangle Kush,

Hope that helps.

Hey bud thanks for the detailed post. We actually were able to figure out the whole cause was parasitic nematodes...specifically stem nematodes and root nematodes.

CannaTech · Apr 16, 2015

I thought I saw some posting of that nature, but there were several pages I did not read. sorry to muddle the thread.
Hopefully though someone finds some interest in the post ;)
Good luck in the future tho TG stay green man.

Bluzboy · Apr 16, 2015

true grit said:
Hey bud thanks for the detailed post. We actually were able to figure out the whole cause was parasitic nematodes...specifically stem nematodes and root nematodes.

Root aphids were one of the worse nightmares I ever had in my garden besides russet mites....they both take over a plants in your garden and spread like some zombie or viral infestation from a Romero movie...root aphids are big problem for gardeners in Colorado, russet mites as well doe to the low humidity...real big problem in the AG community as well here when I talk to actual farmers in my rural area of Northern Colorado here around my abode...the Farmers I regularly converse/commune with say its two of the biggest problems they face in their fields here yearly, root aphids and russet mites, and Copper Rust been an issue in my AG area also with crops grown here....lawn heads in Colorado plagued by root aphids as well a lot as they go after lawn sod and grasses with the same tenacity as they do cannabis and hemp.....glad you got the issue correctly diagnosed....wish you well in all your grow endeavors!
Bluzboy

OnTheCrush · May 20, 2015

delae632 said:
DUD LIFE Bout to get that shit tattooed on my stomach if I don't get this figured out quickly. lol

All of mine have been grown in soil. Saw my first ones on my first run in this room about 3.5 years ago or so. I didn't know what happened and thought I just fucked up like some of the rest of you, then it happened again and again randomly with no patten that I could see. I've switched my room up every which way, changed soils, pots, beds, changed cloning gels, changed cloning practices, glass, no glass, high heat, low heat, organics, synthetics, slammed with nutes, light nutes, different cuts, different seeds, high temps, low temps, sealed, passive, active, etc...same ol' shit happens to at least a couple plants every time. It doesn't matter if I have any problems with a run or if everything goes perfectly...I'll still get at least a couple duds. I was positive I wasn't going to have any duds last run (except a couple cast off's in pots). Everything in the beds looked killer and even, then during week 2 of veg I started seeing a lag in about 12 of them (out of 64). Those ones all got passed up by the rest of the canopy and started to get "the look", those plants dudded and everything else came out superb. I have a feeling it's a virus or fungus but I've had this discussion with @MakinGoo before and I do have a strong feeling that it may have something to do with the roots as well. Like him, when I water, everything gets watered at the same time, no matter what. The smaller and weaker plants seem to really hate this. lmoa

The only thing I can say with 100% confidence is that I have NO idea what the hell this is. lol I just want it to go the fuck away so I can stop loosing sleep at night.

Side by side. TK cut from the same mother....same exact everything. Healthy plant on the left and a fucked off dud on the right.
View attachment 407454 View attachment 407455
TK dud vs normal
View attachment 407456
TK dud. It's like a spider plant...
View attachment 407457
White Bubba dud vs normal
View attachment 407458
View attachment 407459
Tahoe
View attachment 407460
View attachment 407461
View attachment 407463
White Fire
View attachment 407462
Pre 98 Bubba
View attachment 407464
GSC Forum cut normal vs dud
View attachment 407465 View attachment 407466

Dayyyum was so stoked to find this! Then it just kinda petered out without any real definitive solutions. I don't have pics but I've had 5 rounds that looked just like this. After I cut back my moms and filled my ezcloner, the moms shriveled up and died and maybe 2% of the cuts in the cloner rooted. I was so lost as to what it could be. TMV was all I could really find. Then Fusarium. My friend had it really bad as well. So I cleaned out everything.. Lights, Fans, Pots, Trays. Getting all new everything. I vacuumed everything about 11 times, sprayed with bleach 2x, and brought in new, clean moms. I think my cuts are already showing signs of it. I even brought in water from a spring (28ppm) up the road til I get my RO put in. I feel like my hard water has added to the stress and I'm wondering if Fusarium or other bacteria can be in my well and making things worse? I know I was gifted it with a batch of cuts that had 3-4 runts in it. Has anyone had success switching strains? It's been so stressful and painful. 1/2-2/3 harvests. losing whole ones because cuts never root. It's very depressing to say the least.
Strains I have seen infected/affected with it:
OGHB (HBK)
Sueno
SFV OG
Gorilla Glue
Diagonal
Dream D
Bruce
Birthday Cake
lots more I can't think of right now.

Seamaiden · May 21, 2015

I thought some folks have managed to get it straightened out, but it has been a while since I've really been through the thread.

Capulator · May 21, 2015

true grit said:
Hey bud thanks for the detailed post. We actually were able to figure out the whole cause was parasitic nematodes...specifically stem nematodes and root nematodes.

fact?

Had duds come from unrooted mass super skunk via post. Didn't know until I flowered them... Next to it in the same bed 2 branches of a seed start dudded. Super weird shit.

Bluzboy · May 21, 2015

I did too. I thought some folks had found they were deling with a nematode of the root aphid variety and not a nute, or genetics issue...but I'm slow at full consciousness and comprehension mental RPM's...Colorado root aphids, the only cure I know is ditching everything in the room, sterilixing the room, nd starting over, or using Spectracide in veg to kill them off if you don't sterilize the room which s a 8 week systemic...root aphids in Colorado are horrendous,,,,wipe out lawn sod and yard grasses to the chagrin of suburban and rural lawn heads as well as the AG farms around here....the farmer guys I chat with out here in Weld say that root aphids, russet mites, and copper rust are there main concerns that are pest or disease related in my area for their crops every grow season here in Weld...

true grit · May 21, 2015

Capulator said:
fact?

Had duds come from unrooted mass super skunk via post. Didn't know until I flowered them... Next to it in the same bed 2 branches of a seed start dudded. Super weird shit.

Yeah the big homie was able to see em under a scope with heat, so he had tissue sent to the local botanists at university. They came back and confirmed stem nematodes and said they are seeing a good bit of it lately with tissue samples folks are sending in for analysis. sadly their suggestions were just to toss infected ones or do the suggested stuff to boost plant immune health.

I recycled some soil that had come in contact with run off from a dud, lost 1/3 of the bed to dudding from it. Some plants are just way more susceptible it seems.

Capulator · May 21, 2015

@true grit I guess I will see. I marked in the bed where it dudded and if it does it again next round I will have to go have a good cry since I reuse all my coco in the beds.

true grit · May 22, 2015

Capulator said:
@true grit I guess I will see. I marked in the bed where it dudded and if it does it again next round I will have to go have a good cry since I reuse all my coco in the beds.

Its plant to plant though really, ive had a dud branch here and there in other beds (which means they are present) and then never had an issue again once doing normal stuff like teas, chitins, etc. Generally it takes a susceptible plant...ie OG, GG4, yada yada

toxic1 · May 22, 2015

i had a 4x4 geopot bed of TK dud out on me about a year ago. im still reusing that bed and nothing has dudded out on me since. i never cleaned or sterilized it. everything that has been grown in it since has turned out perfectly fine

true grit · May 22, 2015

toxic1 said:
i had a 4x4 geopot bed of TK dud out on me about a year ago. im still reusing that bed and nothing has dudded out on me since. i never cleaned or sterilized it. everything that has been grown in it since has turned out perfectly fine

Damn a whole bed and didn't replace the soil? This is how the fuckers stay alive and spread even without symptoms. Just sayin

toxic1 · May 22, 2015

true grit said:
Damn a whole bed and didn't replace the soil? This is how the fuckers stay alive and spread even without symptoms. Just sayin

i replace the soil every run. should have clarified that

Capulator · May 23, 2015

I religiously apply the foliar and root packs weekly to keep everything at bay. The foliar pack kills harmful nematodes and the root pack boosts the SAR and protects the roots, so hopefully that saves my ass.

true grit · May 23, 2015

toxic1 said:
i replace the soil every run. should have clarified that

That would definitely help, evidently they can transfer via material i.e. bed liner as well but i bet odds are much less once infected soil is gone. I just throw any cloth pots in the washer with bleach, and dryer on mad hot.

Capulator said:
I religiously apply the foliar and root packs weekly to keep everything at bay. The foliar pack kills harmful nematodes and the root pack boosts the SAR and protects the roots, so hopefully that saves my ass.

Ya generally that and adding chitins and salicin to a regimen is enough to boost the plants health. Sadly from what the botanists said and consensus is that the root nematodes are beatable, but the stem nematodes are generally forever present at some level once contracted. But good health helps keep them at bay, and once you are able to determine dud in veg simple culling and replacement with healthy plants is the biggest key.

toxic1 · May 24, 2015

have any of you guys tried harpin proteins?

Qbanbiz · May 25, 2015

OnTheCrush said:
Dayyyum was so stoked to find this! Then it just kinda petered out without any real definitive solutions. I don't have pics but I've had 5 rounds that looked just like this. After I cut back my moms and filled my ezcloner, the moms shriveled up and died and maybe 2% of the cuts in the cloner rooted. I was so lost as to what it could be. TMV was all I could really find. Then Fusarium. My friend had it really bad as well. So I cleaned out everything.. Lights, Fans, Pots, Trays. Getting all new everything. I vacuumed everything about 11 times, sprayed with bleach 2x, and brought in new, clean moms. I think my cuts are already showing signs of it. I even brought in water from a spring (28ppm) up the road til I get my RO put in. I feel like my hard water has added to the stress and I'm wondering if Fusarium or other bacteria can be in my well and making things worse? I know I was gifted it with a batch of cuts that had 3-4 runts in it. Has anyone had success switching strains? It's been so stressful and painful. 1/2-2/3 harvests. losing whole ones because cuts never root. It's very depressing to say the least.
Strains I have seen infected/affected with it:
OGHB (HBK)
Sueno
SFV OG
Gorilla Glue
Diagonal
Dream D
Bruce
Birthday Cake
lots more I can't think of right now.

Hey OTC, Fusarium is most probably your problem. We've been dealing with the same issues and have had just about everything in our facilities tested. Fusarium keeps popping up. We are seeing a noticeable difference after applying OXIDATE 2.0. We water it in at 7.5ml/Gal to cleanse our coco. The healthy plants are much healthier and more vigirous. The duds are still duds. This is the only product that i feel is working for us at the time. I have been dipping fresh cuttings in oxidate solution prior to dipping in rooting gel. it cleanses all wounds and kills fungus and bacteria. Keep tossing those plants with visible signs of CANCER. You'll get it back on track. FYI SFV and GG4 are very susceptible.

Chrondondalae · May 26, 2015

Qbanbiz said:
Hey OTC, Fusarium is most probably your problem. We've been dealing with the same issues and have had just about everything in our facilities tested. Fusarium keeps popping up. We are seeing a noticeable difference after applying OXIDATE 2.0. We water it in at 7.5ml/Gal to cleanse our coco. The healthy plants are much healthier and more vigirous. The duds are still duds. This is the only product that i feel is working for us at the time. I have been dipping fresh cuttings in oxidate solution prior to dipping in rooting gel. it cleanses all wounds and kills fungus and bacteria. Keep tossing those plants with visible signs of CANCER. You'll get it back on track. FYI SFV and GG4 are very susceptible.

So you're going sterile without any beneficials?

Qbanbiz · May 26, 2015

Chrondondalae said:
So you're going sterile without any beneficials?

After cleansing a few times with OXIDATE, we re-inoculate with beneficials. This RUN we are using OG (OLD SCHOOL GROWERS) VEGANIC SPECIAL SAUCE.

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

CannaTech

true grit

CannaTech

Bluzboy

OnTheCrush

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Bluzboy

true grit

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

true grit

toxic1

true grit

toxic1

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

true grit

toxic1

Qbanbiz

Chrondondalae

Qbanbiz

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

CannaTech

true grit

CannaTech

Bluzboy

OnTheCrush

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Bluzboy

true grit

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

true grit

toxic1

true grit

toxic1

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

true grit

toxic1

Qbanbiz

Chrondondalae

Qbanbiz

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