Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Ricksauce · Dec 27, 2015

There's a decent chance your seeds will also have the disease. If you clone off of symptomatic plants, they won't have a chance. Plant/clone way more than you need. Way way more. Cull the ones that show duds. Don't look at them as plants. There's no value there, they have negative value. They take up space and resources and likely spread concentrations of virus.

Anybody not have this shit? I'm curious who is untouched by duds? I'm finding 100% in way far Northern California. Lot of control methods but no all clears. Colorado reports widespread duds.

We Solidarity · Dec 27, 2015

Ricksauce said:
There's a decent chance your seeds will also have the disease. If you clone off of symptomatic plants, they won't have a chance. Plant/clone way more than you need. Way way more. Cull the ones that show duds. Don't look at them as plants. There's no value there, they have negative value. They take up space and resources and likely spread concentrations of virus.

Anybody not have this shit? I'm curious who is untouched by duds? I'm finding 100% in way far Northern California. Lot of control methods but no all clears. Colorado reports widespread duds.

Thats interesting. I wonder if its just more progressed in Cali than in co- I've seen multiple people reverse duds and pop 100% healthy seeds that are still good, @HiPlainDrftr documented it in this thread with Bruce banner.

Bulldog11 · Dec 27, 2015

Would still love advice from others on whether or not I should cull everything.

We Solidarity said:
If they're showing symptoms they're infected, this thread is pretty much about the hoplessness of plants that are affected...culling has been the only solution.

The thread bounces all over. Some people say they have a cure, then don't show back up with a follow up. Some people say you need to replace the soil, yet some report zero duds after re-using soil that had grown duded plants. It's confusing.

I also have about 20 grand of soil on the property I re-use every season. Is this a problem?

Bulldog11 · Dec 27, 2015

Ricksauce said:
There's a decent chance your seeds will also have the disease. If you clone off of symptomatic plants, they won't have a chance. Plant/clone way more than you need. Way way more. Cull the ones that show duds. Don't look at them as plants. There's no value there, they have negative value. They take up space and resources and likely spread concentrations of virus.

Anybody not have this shit? I'm curious who is untouched by duds? I'm finding 100% in way far Northern California. Lot of control methods but no all clears. Colorado reports widespread duds.

Not seeds from a duded plant that I grew. However many seed packs from breeders, so I have no idea. However, GSC and GG #4 are on the no fly list.

I always grow 2-3 times as many plants as I need. 50% are male and get culled, and the rest only the strong survive. Will this cover me? Also, should I be concerned about the soil I recycle?

Also, are you saying to cull my cuts? Do you think seeds will have a higher chance of eliminating these viruses? Or not passing it on, than clones?

Ricksauce · Dec 27, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
Not seeds from a duded plant that I grew. However many seed packs from breeders, so I have no idea. However, GSC and GG #4 are on the no fly list.

I always grow 2-3 times as many plants as I need. 50% are male and get culled, and the rest only the strong survive. Will this cover me? Also, should I be concerned about the soil I recycle?

Also, are you saying to cull my cuts? Do you think seeds will have a higher chance of eliminating these viruses? Or not passing it on, than clones?

I'm speculating here but I've seen a lot of this. I believe the virus is nearly everywhere now. I don't think this was the case pre-2012 but the first duds evidence I've seen is 2008 in SoCal. Seeds and clones are even money. This thing has spread for years, uncontested. GG4 put it everywhere. I'm afraid there's no not getting it. If someone hasn't seen this they should hold firm and take nothing from the outside. I've yet to confirm a clean garden unfortunately.

As far as your cuts go, each one is either symptomatic or is not showing it. If it's symptomatic it should be culled. Sometimes plants that are on the fence will pull out if you transplant into a really solid organic medium. This means you look at it and go...maybe this one is alright. Occasionally you can save those but it's a lot of work.

I don't know how the virus sheds so I can't speak to transmissibility in soil. It's in the plant already so it not an exposure risk. But if it sheds in the roots, it's in the soil. No idea. Pics?

Bulldog11 · Dec 27, 2015

I do have a ton of seeds from breeders pre 2008, rez dog in particular. Maybe I will just pop those.

So if it sheds in the roots it's in the soil? For sure? I grow in 500 gal per plant, and during the winter I grow cover crops for green manure. That means I till in the cover crop for organic matter, which also means the soil "cooks" or composts for 3 weeks. Shouldn't that take care of the virus? I have no idea here, just speculating.

The plants were hard to see the damage over pictures, so I kind of gave up. I do have some pics....

These two were pics of buds deep inside the plant. Hard to tell, because it would have been hash nugs anyway.

Here is a harvested plant that was effected by Russets 100% for sure. Really woody stems, which I don't think russets cause. The top nugs were ok. The rest was firewood. OK, my pic wouldn't load, so here is the plant next to the one I was talking about, back right part of the picture.

I now suspect the same with my GDP...... Didn't see any mites on any of the plants in this greenhouse. Doesn't mean they weren't there, but wondering about the virus you speak of. Run this cut many times, and it used to be way better.

Bulldog11 · Dec 27, 2015

I also suspected something up with my Black yeti. Everybody reports underwhelming results with these beans, even though the linage should produce something better. However the nugs looked ok, but tested around 15%.

Stupid server wont load the pic I want. I will post what I got.....The third pic is the Black Yeti after two rounds of harvest. Not the best pic........

Ricksauce · Dec 27, 2015

We Solidarity said:
Thats interesting. I wonder if its just more progressed in Cali than in co- I've seen multiple people reverse duds and pop 100% healthy seeds that are still good, @HiPlainDrftr documented it in this thread with Bruce banner.

Ricksauce said:
I'm speculating here but I've seen a lot of this. I believe the virus is nearly everywhere now. I don't think this was the case pre-2012 but the first duds evidence I've seen is 2008 in SoCal. Seeds and clones are even money. This thing has spread for years, uncontested. GG4 put it everywhere. I'm afraid there's no not getting it. If someone hasn't seen this they should hold firm and take nothing from the outside. I've yet to confirm a clean garden unfortunately.

As far as your cuts go, each one is either symptomatic or is not showing it. If it's symptomatic it should be culled. Sometimes plants that are on the fence will pull out if you transplant into a really solid organic medium. This means you look at it and go...maybe this one is alright. Occasionally you can save those but it's a lot of work.

I don't know how the virus sheds so I can't speak to transmissibility in soil. It's in the plant already so it not an exposure risk. But if it sheds in the roots, it's in the soil. No idea. Pics?

@WeSolidarity would you consider them cured? Were these grows with sick plants previously that turned healthy? Was it culling and breeding it out that was effective? I'm not particularly experienced with this first hand in seed. Only evidence I've seen is anecdotal bit from solid folks having substantial problems.

We Solidarity · Dec 27, 2015

Ricksauce said:
@WeSolidarity would you consider them cured? Were these grows with sick plants previously that turned healthy? Was it culling and breeding it out that was effective? I'm not particularly experienced with this first hand in seed. Only evidence I've seen is anecdotal bit from solid folks having substantial problems.

I've only seen plants revert back to health twice and the second literally just happened on christmas...I wouldn't consider the seeds "cured" or uninfected but they are definitely behaving like normal plants and subsequent clonial generations are healthy too. Only time will tell though.

As far as I've seen the only solution to duds has been culling, and making sure you keep healthy plants in veg of genetics that are susceptible.

My method-
I always keep my strongest back to clone off of, and clone twice what I need off infected strains. (Only clobing the healthiest individuals) Of those clones, I throw the weakest 25% out right away. At the next transplant I throw out another 25% of the weakest and I'm left with a great selection. I don't get duds every time but ive noticed more vigorous cuts are less susceptible.
Its time consuming to cut more clones especially when a standard number per strain is in the hundreds, but so far its the only way to gurantee sick genetics stay healthy. I have seen almost every elite make duds and been able to preserve the genetic, I've only lost one so far.

We Solidarity · Dec 27, 2015

HiPlainDrftr said:
View attachment 530712 View attachment 530713

4/5 of the sprouts made it. I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet. But so far the S1s are looking healthy and strong. Nothing like the runted parents.

@HiPlainDrftr 's seeds from a reversed dud. I'll see if he can get some more pics of them now and of the flowers.

We Solidarity · Dec 27, 2015

These are three birthday cake clones I received rooted in rockwool, they were definitely duds, I tp'd them into a coco/soil blend and symptoms were definite.

I transplanted the larger more vigorous one into the coco/soil blend and it stayed dudded out.

The other two I put in organic soil (buildasoil out of southern Colorado) and the syptoms reversed, the plants are putting out lush healthy growth!

This is the first time in person I've witnessed a plant reverting back to normal, @DowNwithDirT says he's gotten his sour deisel to revert to normal as well.

Wisher619 · Dec 27, 2015

I would like to chime in here if I may....IMHO...I dont believe it has anything to do with virus.....I have had a Blue Dream x Platinum GSC for about 2 years....she has been mothering in Organic soil...her babies were grown in organic soil....I just rescently took clones of her and decided to try out coco/hydro....as soon as they started to grow...immediately they began to show these exact deficiencies.....They were growing at an extreme rate....about 1/2-1" a day....

whowever......
I raised my PH from 5.5-5.8...to 6.0 and cut out CalMg+ from the feed and now they are back to normal
I will take a few picks later on when lights come on of the new growth that is perfectly normal....none of my other plants have shown anything like this
My nutes are Botanicare CNS17 line with botanicare supplements
I have never seen anything like this in my organics...I believe even the ones running organic...we are introducing something to them that is not sitting right with them....but I do not believe it is a virus....unless you concider Husbandry a virus

JMO

GrowGod · Dec 27, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
So guys, I have had russets over the last year. Reading this thread, I believe I have many of the symptoms you guys are talking about. If I understand it correctly, you guys are now talking about a virus, instead of just russet damage.

My question to you guys, I have a handful of elite cuts. They are ALL showing signs of everything this thread talks about. I have been keeping one mother away from the others, because she is clean ATM. In a separate building, no where close to the other mothers. The infected clones are GSC, Sherbet, Gilado, Black lime reserve, and Black Jack. I know GSC is notorious for these issues.

I plan on doing a huge outdoor garden this year, and had SOOOO many issues last season with mites, and maybe a virus. My question is, should I just toss all my genetics and start new? I just took clones and tossed all the moms. I was thinking I would start a round of chemical miticides to knock these bugs out before I take clones for next season. However, if it's a virus miticides wont do squat.

I like my clones for my light deps, but I have plenty of seeds if I can't use clones. So, toss them or keep and treat?

I wouldn't throw them out just yet, because there's no proof yet. I've been researching plant virus and they can stick in a grow room for 50-60 years lol. So if that's tge case we are all fucked. It's seems the more I think about a virus it sends me into a just kill it all attitude like its the end of the world.

GrowGod · Dec 27, 2015

Wisher619 said:
I would like to chime in here if I may....IMHO...I dont believe it has anything to do with virus.....I have had a Blue Dream x Platinum GSC for about 2 years....she has been mothering in Organic soil...her babies were grown in organic soil....I just rescently took clones of her and decided to try out coco/hydro....as soon as they started to grow...immediately they began to show these exact deficiencies.....They were growing at an extreme rate....about 1/2-1" a day....View attachment 558421 View attachment 558422 View attachment 558423
whowever......
I raised my PH from 5.5-5.8...to 6.0 and cut out CalMg+ from the feed and now they are back to normal
I will take a few picks later on when lights come on of the new growth that is perfectly normal....none of my other plants have shown anything like this
My nutes are Botanicare CNS17 line with botanicare supplements
I have never seen anything like this in my organics...I believe even the ones running organic...we are introducing something to them that is not sitting right with them....but I do not believe it is a virus....unless you concider Husbandry a virus

JMO

As I sit back and think I have had these issues in the past as well and they cleared up after vigorous husbandry issues were addressed . I started treating my gdp with zone last night so we will see if she improves.

Ricksauce · Dec 27, 2015

Wisher619 said:
I would like to chime in here if I may....IMHO...I dont believe it has anything to do with virus.....I have had a Blue Dream x Platinum GSC for about 2 years....she has been mothering in Organic soil...her babies were grown in organic soil....I just rescently took clones of her and decided to try out coco/hydro....as soon as they started to grow...immediately they began to show these exact deficiencies.....They were growing at an extreme rate....about 1/2-1" a day....View attachment 558421 View attachment 558422 View attachment 558423
whowever......
I raised my PH from 5.5-5.8...to 6.0 and cut out CalMg+ from the feed and now they are back to normal
I will take a few picks later on when lights come on of the new growth that is perfectly normal....none of my other plants have shown anything like this
My nutes are Botanicare CNS17 line with botanicare supplements
I have never seen anything like this in my organics...I believe even the ones running organic...we are introducing something to them that is not sitting right with them....but I do not believe it is a virus....unless you concider Husbandry a virus

JMO

Those pics are not duds

Wisher619 · Dec 27, 2015

no but they are exactly the same symptoms of what people call TMV or Mosaic Virus
the reason I dont believe it is a virus is I have seen first hand what mosaic virus does....not just mosaic veragation on say fig mosaic but the twisting and whatnot.....mosaic begins to blister the leaves and soon the plant will die......
also....this particular plant has purple stems and trunk....when I threw the clones in the coco the stems started to green up and then where the stem was green the new shoots came out all twisted and mangled....

We Solidarity · Dec 27, 2015

Wisher619 said:
I would like to chime in here if I may....IMHO...I dont believe it has anything to do with virus.....I have had a Blue Dream x Platinum GSC for about 2 years....she has been mothering in Organic soil...her babies were grown in organic soil....I just rescently took clones of her and decided to try out coco/hydro....as soon as they started to grow...immediately they began to show these exact deficiencies.....They were growing at an extreme rate....about 1/2-1" a day....View attachment 558421 View attachment 558422 View attachment 558423
whowever......
I raised my PH from 5.5-5.8...to 6.0 and cut out CalMg+ from the feed and now they are back to normal
I will take a few picks later on when lights come on of the new growth that is perfectly normal....none of my other plants have shown anything like this
My nutes are Botanicare CNS17 line with botanicare supplements
I have never seen anything like this in my organics...I believe even the ones running organic...we are introducing something to them that is not sitting right with them....but I do not believe it is a virus....unless you concider Husbandry a virus

JMO

Sounds like you were dealing with a pH problem not duds.

Wisher619 · Dec 27, 2015

my point is all these symptoms are all the same.....and supposedly the culprit ranges from bad nutes....ph issues....mites....to mystery virus that cant be stopped

IMO it is usually an imbalance in the enviroment wheather you are a great caretaker of your plants or not
sometimes things get out of whack and we are dealing with a super finicky inbread species with a really small gene pool...things happen....could there be a virus....sure...but I would have to say....enviroment (water/nutes/humidity/heat/cold/substrate/ph/etc...)
if we read back....mosaic which infected hemp devestaed acre grows....dead in days to weeks
not stunted growth or duded flowers
I remember hearing Fletch from Archive talking about this very subject...he said he has pulled many plants out of stunted or duded form by cutting from the top and cloning....growing that out a bit and taking from the top again until the stunting is gone

Ricksauce · Dec 27, 2015

Wisher619 said:
my point is all these symptoms are all the same.....and supposedly the culprit ranges from bad nutes....ph issues....mites....to mystery virus that cant be stopped

IMO it is usually an imbalance in the enviroment wheather you are a great caretaker of your plants or not
sometimes things get out of whack and we are dealing with a super finicky inbread species with a really small gene pool...things happen....could there be a virus....sure...but I would have to say....enviroment(water/nutes/humidity/heat/cold/substrate/ph/etc...)
if we read back....mosaic which infected hemp devestaed acre grows....dead in days to weeks
not stunted growth or duded flowers
I remember hearing Fletch from Archive talking about this very subject...he said he has pulled many plants out of stunted or duded form by cutting from the top and cloning....growing that out a bit and taking from the top again until the stunting is gone

Yeah we're not talking about that. We know about pH and nutrients. We're hunting a specific pathogen. Grow good plants is not a viable solution, we're way past that.

"enviroment(water/nutes/humidity/heat/cold/substrate/ph/etc...)"

All covered. We're not new. Here are some pics.

Wisher619 · Dec 27, 2015

@Ricksauce
those pics....are they not showing the exact same thing as the pics that I posted

I was turned on to this thread as my symptoms looked identical but I have since corrected it....leaf twisting back veragation of color....
in your top pic I am trying to figure out what I am looking at....just looks like a lanky plant that has been defoliated of its old leaves....
I hope I am not comming across as a dick....I am trying to figure it out as well since I have seen this in my plants now and have seen it on all kinds of boards and I have also seen the issues corrected....but all in all the symptoms are always the same

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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