Duds; Is It A Virus?

[sixstring]

I dont think it has anything to do with smoking. I've been smoking and handling cannabis for over 20 years and I've had zero issues. If smoking had anything to do with this it would be much wider spread than it is and I would be the most likely to have issues. I smoke like a chimney and almost alwsys have a cig hanging from my mouth. What evidence do you have to support this arguing you have been doing over the years?

me too,i roll my own smokes so im always handling rawish tobacco.plus i have cig butts all over my grow room floors,its a natural insect repellant.i dont have duds and never did.but i dont take cuts.i really do believe theres a link to those who have dud issues and excepting cuts at some point,possibly from a few distinct sources.maybe somebody is breeding with duds also.sure seems like it was a localized problem that kinda spread to just a few peeps and elites were inloved imo

 

[ken dog]

All I do is keep mothers and take cuts... Sometimes a clone turns out to be a dud.

I blame myself for not taking a better top as a clone.

 

[We Solidarity]

I'm 100% convinced that we are dealing with a virus. Two of the most widespread and common pests in our industry (rice root aphids and western flower thrips) are both vectors for hundreds of different species of virus that affect thousands of different species of plants...and many of those viruses have only been discovered in the last 5-10 years.

There are many crops in agriculture that deal with similar problems as this, however there are protocols in place to make sure pest and crop cross-contamination are kept to a minimum, and when outbreaks occur it is a national concern.

Unfortunately, the cannabis industry has no regulation whatsoever, and in my experience 4/5 growers are dealing with at least one pest that is a known viral vector, and I haven't spoken to/witnessed a single grower that doesn't source clones from unknown sources (just because you know who popped the seed doesn't mean you know the story of the cutting, or of the parent plants). The lack of cohesion when it comes to pest awareness and the practice of breeding plants in synthetic environments apart from any natural process, on top of the clandestine and untracked nature of sharing/spreading cuts, puts cannabis at the top of the list for crops at risk for a viral collapse.

Almost every crop that is propagated through cuttings or tissue culture is contaminated by viruses, and every crop has dedicated research centers (either independed or university based) to stay ahead of the viruses and produce clean/resistant stock. As we speak potatoes and bananas are being decimated by viruses; berries, melons, grapes, squashes, and a countless number of perennials are also dealing with almost identical problems as us.

There are very few answers to this solution. I and others (@Ricksauce you're the man) are working very hard on trying to get professional eyes on this epidemic, it's been a hell of a year but I think things are finally starting to get moving.

 

[Ricksauce]

Duds virus? ... No such animal... Take better clones.[/QUOTE

Yup. @WeSolidarity is right. We're pretty far past "cut better clones." Our research team is building a new lab in the Arcata, CA Marijuana Innovation Zone in northern California, called Humboldt DNA. We're specifically going to perform the PCR work necessary to ID the viruses (it's likely more than one). If we're lucky we'll have answers in 6-8 months. For now we're calling them PCIA(s): "Putative Cannabis Infectious Agent(s)."

This work hasn't been done yet. Nobody knows what we're dealing with as far as I can tell. Immuno-assays are useless if we don't know the target. Some duds test positive for tobamovirus genus, some test negative. Serology is imperfect. If someone's figured this out already they're keeping it really quiet, to make more money.

If anyone has pictures of duds and wants to share, email us at [email protected]

We're tracking the spread of PCIA(s) across the US and abroad. So far it's "confirmed" in WA, OR, CA, CO and HI. That's as far as we've gotten, but I'm curious how far east it's spread. I imagine all the way but we've only scratched the surface of this investigation. It appears this is also pollen-borne.

GGP (grow good plants) is our only current control. This means choose the best plants to grow, cull the bad ones, and, grow them really really well and don't stress them out. Some people claim milk does something useful. I don't know. I'll update this thread when make discoveries.

So far, it's not oomycota, fungi, bacteria, phytoplasmas or mineral toxicity/deficiency as far as the data suggest. Although this would take a peer-reviewed study to prove. So we beat on...

 

[GrwrGoneWild]

@ ricksauce.

I know you're working with the virus theory.. but has there been any work suggesting abiotic factors like herbicide damage?..

Neat stuff about using PCR for virus ID, I'll have to talk to my consultant about that, we were talking about using PCR for genetic ID, but it would be nice to know if the plants we are working with are virus free.

 

[We Solidarity]

@ ricksauce.

I know you're working with the virus theory.. but has there been any work suggesting abiotic factors like herbicide damage?..

Neat stuff about using PCR for virus ID, I'll have to talk to my consultant about that, we were talking about using PCR for genetic ID, but it would be nice to know if the plants we are working with are virus free.

If it was abiotic factors then I feel it wouldn't be so widespread; I've seen duds in every type of garden and outdoors, it doesn't seem limited to any environment, nutrient, water source, or area. Not to say abiotic factors aren't in play -- the most susceptible plants are ones that have had some recent form of stress, Healthy and vigorous plants will definitely show less duds (all though if the genetic is infected they almost always will show)

@GrwrGoneWild I know it's not your intention and I don't mean to nag at you in a thread that's not my own ~ but @Ricksauce made this thread not to debate that it might or might not be viral, he made this thread as a forum for research towards viruses. There are two or three other threads on this site that are still debating what it could be; this one, I believe, is intended to spread research and give access to research to individuals who have the ability to help us. I know for a fact there are professionals watching these threads now, it would be amazing to have at least one that isn't cluttered with debate about "what it could be..." since a virus has been the consensus of every botanist, microbiologist, entomologist, and virologist I've been in communication with.

 

[Ricksauce]

Yeah our data set is pretty extensive. It's infectious, 100%. I don't have data pre-2008. @WeSolidarity suggests root aphids possibly vectored this originally. This is consistent with our data. Here's an example of alarming trend:

 

[jumpincactus]

I'm 100% convinced that we are dealing with a virus. Two of the most widespread and common pests in our industry (rice root aphids and western flower thrips) are both vectors for hundreds of different species of virus that affect thousands of different species of plants...and many of those viruses have only been discovered in the last 5-10 years.

There are many crops in agriculture that deal with similar problems as this, however there are protocols in place to make sure pest and crop cross-contamination are kept to a minimum, and when outbreaks occur it is a national concern.

Unfortunately, the cannabis industry has no regulation whatsoever, and in my experience 4/5 growers are dealing with at least one pest that is a known viral vector, and I haven't spoken to/witnessed a single grower that doesn't source clones from unknown sources (just because you know who popped the seed doesn't mean you know the story of the cutting, or of the parent plants). The lack of cohesion when it comes to pest awareness and the practice of breeding plants in synthetic environments apart from any natural process, on top of the clandestine and untracked nature of sharing/spreading cuts, puts cannabis at the top of the list for crops at risk for a viral collapse.

Almost every crop that is propagated through cuttings or tissue culture is contaminated by viruses, and every crop has dedicated research centers (either independed or university based) to stay ahead of the viruses and produce clean/resistant stock. As we speak potatoes and bananas are being decimated by viruses; berries, melons, grapes, squashes, and a countless number of perennials are also dealing with almost identical problems as us.

There are very few answers to this solution. I and others (@Ricksauce you're the man) are working very hard on trying to get professional eyes on this epidemic, it's been a hell of a year but I think things are finally starting to get moving.

Damn dude you just drove that nail right down into the heart of it.

I'm not a know all by any stretch, but I have been around cannabis plants a long time. With that time I have seen a marked increase in all sorts of maladies with the proliferation of cut swapping. Like you said when the repercussions legally had peeps tip toeing to get cuts out, it wasn't as prevalent in the 60,70,80's. But once the states started decriminalizing, adopting medical use and legalization in some states the sharing of cuts has increased exponentially. Then add to that maybe 3 out of 10 peeps even use a quarantine process and have no IPM for insect control for their new cuts/ cloned strains. The potential for a viral plantdemic is like you stated, a reality. Especially with all the indoor growing going on and no real balance of nature to work things out naturally like it has for millions of years. I am with you 100% with your post. Well put my friend!!! Props

 

[jumpincactus]

Yup. @WeSolidarity is right. We're pretty far past "cut better clones." Our research team is building a new lab in the Arcata, CA Marijuana Innovation Zone in northern California, called Humboldt DNA. We're specifically going to perform the PCR work necessary to ID the viruses (it's likely more than one). If we're lucky we'll have answers in 6-8 months. For now we're calling them PCIA(s): "Putative Cannabis Infectious Agent(s)."

This work hasn't been done yet. Nobody knows what we're dealing with as far as I can tell. Immuno-assays are useless if we don't know the target. Some duds test positive for tobamovirus genus, some test negative. Serology is imperfect. If someone's figured this out already they're keeping it really quiet, to make more money.

If anyone has pictures of duds and wants to share, email us at [email protected]

We're tracking the spread of PCIA(s) across the US and abroad. So far it's "confirmed" in WA, OR, CA, CO and HI. That's as far as we've gotten, but I'm curious how far east it's spread. I imagine all the way but we've only scratched the surface of this investigation. It appears this is also pollen-borne.

GGP (grow good plants) is our only current control. This means choose the best plants to grow, cull the bad ones, and, grow them really really well and don't stress them out. Some people claim milk does something useful. I don't know. I'll update this thread when make discoveries.

So far, it's not oomycota, fungi, bacteria, phytoplasmas or mineral toxicity/deficiency as far as the data suggest. Although this would take a peer-reviewed study to prove. So we beat on...

I will be following your work. Would be nice to see some real science concerning our fav gurls rather than anecdotal beliefs.

 

[Seamaiden]

Some people claim milk does something useful. I don't know.

IIRC, it 'breaks' the virus's telomeres.

Here are the Google Scholar hits I get when searching "milk affect plant viruses." There are varying theories on how and why it does have an effect on viruses, but it seems to me that the research showing it *does* is fairly firm. I think people dealing with this need to incorporate cleaning with milk into their regimen at this point.

 

[GrwrGoneWild]

IIRC, it 'breaks' the virus's telomeres.

Here are the Google Scholar hits I get when searching "milk affect plant viruses." There are varying theories on how and why it does have an effect on viruses, but it seems to me that the research showing it *does* is fairly firm. I think people dealing with this need to incorporate cleaning with milk into their regimen at this point.

I had a hard time reading those abstracts.. or at least trying to figure out how to apply it as part of a eradication plan. I did however find a simplified version. It discusses vector control, efficacy.. and some interesting info on the virus. And it does include references to prior research on viral control with milk.

http://www.gpnmag.com/truth-about-milk-and-tmv

 

[jumpincactus]

I had a hard time reading those abstracts.. or at least trying to figure out how to apply it as part of a eradication plan. I did however find a simplified version. It discusses vector control, efficacy.. and some interesting info on the virus. And it does include references to prior research on viral control with milk.

http://www.gpnmag.com/truth-about-milk-and-tmv

Im with you on that. Much easier to absorb than the abstract I was reading on PLOS's site.

 

[jumpincactus]

IIRC, it 'breaks' the virus's telomeres.

Here are the Google Scholar hits I get when searching "milk affect plant viruses." There are varying theories on how and why it does have an effect on viruses, but it seems to me that the research showing it *does* is fairly firm. I think people dealing with this need to incorporate cleaning with milk into their regimen at this point.

thank you for that Sea..... I have wondered many times what your conveying with that..... IIRC peace

 

[GrwrGoneWild]

me too,i roll my own smokes so im always handling rawish tobacco.plus i have cig butts all over my grow room floors,its a natural insect repellant.i dont have duds and never did.but i dont take cuts.i really do believe theres a link to those who have dud issues and excepting cuts at some point,possibly from a few distinct sources.maybe somebody is breeding with duds also.sure seems like it was a localized problem that kinda spread to just a few peeps and elites were inloved imo

Its possible that there is no relation with smoking and dudding. Its known that contact with tobacco is a known vector of pathogens it is unclear if TMV is the cause of dudding. There is alot of doubt.. Due to the fact that ricksauce says that only 1 of the 3 tested positive for TMV and he even has doubts on test accuracy. I dont think the problem is a simple as contact with a known vector will turn it into a dud.. I've never observed it to be that way.

Another factor to consider is that a plant may be inoculated with the unknown pathogen(s). A healthy plant would not show symptoms unless certain conditions are met, like stress in the form of cutting. The idea is to follow ricksauces GGP strategy. Anything suspect gets culled, maximum plant health could very well keep the symptoms of dudding away.

 

[bdank]

im leaning towards non virus and some kind of revert to primal genes

 

[greyman41420]

Whatever the cause may be, and I believe it to be a virus, you can add me to following on this thread as I am dealing with the same issue. I will try to take some pictures today of my triangle kush at the end of flowering and it is 100% infected with whatever this crap is. Brought back some cuts from cali about six months ago and a nice thrip infestation to go with it. After the infestation was eradicated I noticed the triangle kush never really responded. It did veg somewhat normal, but the flowers on the first run were larfy, thready, no smell, and the branches would break off if you breathed on them wrong. Tried to get the next mother healthy with aspirin and some other techniques, flipped to flowering and while the buds are more dense, they are just strangely without trich or smell. I have never seen this before and have been at this since 1997. I have theorized it was TMV, but in Arizona we are without the proper labs to test this theory. However I can help the people in this thread with samples, information, etc please let me know. Would love to get to the bottom of this, can't really replace the triangle kush and its about to be thrown out.

 

[GrwrGoneWild]

have never seen this before and have been at this since 1997. I have theorized it was TMV, but in Arizona we are without the proper labs to test this theory. However I can help the people in this thread with samples, information, etc please let me know. Would love to get to the bottom of this, can't really replace the triangle kush and its about to be thrown out.

Might as well throw the cut out. Last thing you need is to spread the virus to other plants from scissors. Oddly enough one of the most effective ways to eliminate TMV is with soap and water. If that is the virus responsible for this. Thrips are a vector for viruses, like spotted wilt virus. I think TMV kits are available online to test for that specific virus.

There are a few treatments but I've yet to try them out like chitosan, or the milk dip. Chitosan is more for duding in general and milk dip is TMV specific.

There are so many viruses out there, I would eliminate as many vectors as possible.

 

[Seamaiden]

Milk is one of the best things to use to clean your hands and tools to prevent spread of plant viruses. It's not TMV specific based on what I've read.

 

[GrwrGoneWild]

Milk is one of the best things to use to clean your hands and tools to prevent spread of plant viruses. It's not TMV specific based on what I've read.

"Washing hands well with soap and water has the best impact on virus removal and inactivation."
http://www.gpnmag.com/article/truth-about-milk-and-tmv/

"I just attended a class at a conference yesterday and the speaker showed us research that demonstrated that soap and water (washing hands, clothes, etc) is still the best way to reduce the spread of TMV through these mechanisms."

Mary Small, Colorado State University, IPM program.

Since TMV hasn't been identified as the pathogen for dudding, perhaps a combo of milk dip then a soap and water wash would serve as a procedure when working with cuts that have been known to dud.?

 

[Seamaiden]

Personally, I think a whole lot more attention needs to be paid to cleanliness, irrespective of whether or not the grower has observed dudding. I can't recall whether or not I've posted the papers, but I have two ag handouts that discuss how to manage diseases in high tunnel tomato production and everything discussed can be translated to cannabis cultivation. It is through those ag handouts that I learned milk is a great virus killer, of all types, not just TMV, but all Tobamoviruses. I also firmly believe that unless someone gets a positive TMV result (so far IIRC no one has) that we have to stop limiting our thinking to just that one virus.