Duds; Is It A Virus?

I'm 100% convinced that we are dealing with a virus. Two of the most widespread and common pests in our industry (rice root aphids and western flower thrips) are both vectors for hundreds of different species of virus that affect thousands of different species of plants...and many of those viruses have only been discovered in the last 5-10 years.

There are many crops in agriculture that deal with similar problems as this, however there are protocols in place to make sure pest and crop cross-contamination are kept to a minimum, and when outbreaks occur it is a national concern.

Unfortunately, the cannabis industry has no regulation whatsoever, and in my experience 4/5 growers are dealing with at least one pest that is a known viral vector, and I haven't spoken to/witnessed a single grower that doesn't source clones from unknown sources (just because you know who popped the seed doesn't mean you know the story of the cutting, or of the parent plants). The lack of cohesion when it comes to pest awareness and the practice of breeding plants in synthetic environments apart from any natural process, on top of the clandestine and untracked nature of sharing/spreading cuts, puts cannabis at the top of the list for crops at risk for a viral collapse.

Almost every crop that is propagated through cuttings or tissue culture is contaminated by viruses, and every crop has dedicated research centers (either independed or university based) to stay ahead of the viruses and produce clean/resistant stock. As we speak potatoes and bananas are being decimated by viruses; berries, melons, grapes, squashes, and a countless number of perennials are also dealing with almost identical problems as us.

There are very few answers to this solution. I and others (@Ricksauce you're the man) are working very hard on trying to get professional eyes on this epidemic, it's been a hell of a year but I think things are finally starting to get moving.
You're a true blessing to the community WS. Bugs are what I've been told vectored this too. I haven't seen this problem yet..but am listening and being careful with all in-coming cuts as if they could be infected.
 
I also firmly believe that unless someone gets a positive TMV result (so far IIRC no one has) that we have to stop limiting our thinking to just that one virus.
Earlier in the thread ricksauce said there was a positive TMV result. However he was unsure if it was a false positive or the other 2 were false negatives. Either way, if milk works as broad spectrum virucide, I'm all for it, I would use it as a dip for clones I'll get from socal, but I'll use soap and water for day to day decontamination.

Im kinda just waiting on the PCR results if they ever get posted on what virus (if any) is causing the duds.
 
We have a half dozen positives for TMV in cannabis, immuno-assays. Fairly unreliable imo. They're for toba genus. We also have maybe 25 solid duds cases testing negative by the same method.

Lots of work ongoing on this now. It's all serology and PCR based. It'll be a long study. We'll publish when there's something conclusive. Until then, grow good plants. Meaning: grow the best plants and throw shitty ones away. And grow the best plants you have, well.

Old moms are more likely to deliver dud clones. Cloning off your previous generation (assuming non-duds) is more successful than off of mother plants.

We've also successfully outgrown duds by cloning quickly off a dud, growing that outas fast as possible, cloning that, and repeat 3+ times. But given enough time, it usually duds again.

Milk, physan, whatever you like to clean with probably won't hurt. Who knows.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
 
Thanks for all the great info @Ricksauce . I recently had my first dud experience from a GG#4 that I got from Harborside. I could feel something wasn't right with her as the fans were super small and it wanted to bush out instead of grow vertically, so I took a few cuts and just ran one as a tester before taking a whole tray and filling up a room. Sure as hell glad I did because in the end the plant wound up utterly worthless. I just hope to hell I didn't spread whatever it had to any of my other plants.

I think you might be the same person a friend of mine in Humboldt told me about, as she mentioned that someone came and gave a lecture to her group about duds and how it may all be tied into an unknown virus. Anyway, thanks again for keeping people informed and I look forward to seeing what the results are on what is causing this.
 
Thanks for all the great info @Ricksauce . I recently had my first dud experience from a GG#4 that I got from Harborside. I could feel something wasn't right with her as the fans were super small and it wanted to bush out instead of grow vertically, so I took a few cuts and just ran one as a tester before taking a whole tray and filling up a room. Sure as hell glad I did because in the end the plant wound up utterly worthless. I just hope to hell I didn't spread whatever it had to any of my other plants.

I think you might be the same person a friend of mine in Humboldt told me about, as she mentioned that someone came and gave a lecture to her group about duds and how it may all be tied into an unknown virus. Anyway, thanks again for keeping people informed and I look forward to seeing what the results are on what is causing this.
I have had the very same if not identical results with the Glue, I think my experience with her is exactly whats described on these threads, I will be uploading pics and much more details later today hopefully. This was my 3rd run with the glue, I didn't introduce any new genetics, the only trigger for her to have become a dud was stress, LOTS of stress. All my other cuts survived, she didn't. The glue is IMO the most susceptible to this virus genetically, or the least immune to it. I see you guys have OGs listed as well, but all I run is OGs and had been running the Glue as well for a couple runs, and after the stress incident, the OG's all survived and produced maybe sub-optimally but still produced, in fact they are all in flower as we speak. The glue on the other hand, all 8 of the cuts I'm running are late in flower and not a single one is her former self, no where close to it. Again give me time guys I'll update with more info later today.
 
We have a half dozen positives for TMV in cannabis, immuno-assays. Fairly unreliable imo. They're for toba genus. We also have maybe 25 solid duds cases testing negative by the same method.

Lots of work ongoing on this now. It's all serology and PCR based. It'll be a long study. We'll publish when there's something conclusive. Until then, grow good plants. Meaning: grow the best plants and throw shitty ones away. And grow the best plants you have, well.

Old moms are more likely to deliver dud clones. Cloning off your previous generation (assuming non-duds) is more successful than off of mother plants.

We've also successfully outgrown duds by cloning quickly off a dud, growing that outas fast as possible, cloning that, and repeat 3+ times. But given enough time, it usually duds again.

Milk, physan, whatever you like to clean with probably won't hurt. Who knows.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
The only thing I would like to add as far as this cloning method to try and get 'rid of' this virus, is that taking clones off of dud plants is very hard. My glue did not root for 10+ days, my 20+ year old OG's rooted in 3 days, yes you read that correctly 3 days. Same exact conditions in the same damn dome using the same damn rooting gel. So if you have a dud, and it happens to be the glue, my suggestion is get that thing out of your garden really quick and don't even attempt to take cuts again. Why should a 5 year (plus or minus 2) cut not root for 10+ days and eventually not at all, yes I let her go for like 20 days, I saw root buds forming but never roots, YET 20/30 year old genetics (old school OG's) root in 3-5 days after taking the cut, SAME exact conditions and the mothers that they were taken from were literally touching each other. IMVHO genetics are HUGE when it comes to this virus, and AGAIN, the glue is just so so weak in terms of an immune response to it, basically nonexistent.
 
just wanted to drop in and share my observations when looking for or at duds

Plants that do not respond to dark cycle in bloom like they should. (instead of drooping, perky like the lights are still on)
Plants that look like they are budding up to quickly, as they will hit a brick wall 2 weeks in.
Lateral growth
Brittle branching
Excessively glossy leaves
Medium not drying out
Small fan leaves
Little to no stretch

peace
 
It's been as Far East as philly with me.

Pest IMHO are a vector , well pest and cuts spread with
R/A s or Alphids seemed to be a possible spreading agent in my case but nematodes were also suspected. Kontos and chitison seemed to elimate my issues. Along with a insane IPM schedule. I literally would treat every plant , every other day with a different insecticide for months. I'm still insanely anal with my IPM schedule. I don't keep mothers I just clone from only top cuts before sending the adult plant to flower. I can dispel the cigarette smoking around plant as I do it frequently , just don't leave the butts all over the floor @sixstring ( want me to send you a ashtray buddy)
KNOCK ON WOOD but I've been good/ great for a year or better with no signs of dudding / pest / etc .... Since late 2014
IMHO this like @We Solidarity says is transmitted by bugs ( Alphids) at first then spread as a virus. I'm really interested to see your finding @Ricksauce I'm gonna head over to the mag and check out your post there

And as always @We Solidarity you are a asset to this community. Your knowledge and great communication skills are appreciated


Blessings
 
Well damn! I've got 2 that I've been watching - freaky as hell! Not cuttings though.
Ken's Grand Daddy Purple - breeder pack - got 2 like this out of 10 seeds. They grew like this from seed and were weird from the start. They've stopped vertical growth and are just getting thicker (brooming). Leaves seem to all be the same size (no large fans) and have a puckered look.
Growing 7 strains this year and this was only strain effected.
No signs of health problems (spotted lower leaves are due to K def from PH problems which is fixed - all new growth looks very green and healthy).
I really doubt just these 2 picked up a virus - I think it's genetic.
I know viruses can mess with genes so my gut says the mother plant had it and the genes of her seeds are altered.
If it was a virus ON the seeds, wouldn't it have spread to the other seeds in the pack?
Maybe I should contact them to let them know they got a problem goin on?
In any case, I won't be buying more of these seeds unless they can guarantee me that they've tested and dumped any effected plants from their breeding stock.
Both have been topped, planted in same batch of soil, treated identically. Dud drinks a lot less water.
Normal GDP on left - Dud(?) on the right.
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IMG_2.jpg

IMG_3.jpg
 
this is a nasty one. It's visited the UK too.
from at least 2 ( and more likely 10 at least-)
different sources on diff continents.

The ones I know who had success used ogbiowar or essential oils. Others suffered almost bankrupting losses growing this evil ? Whatever it is.
bud is worthless, no resin, no smell or anything.

I would not take clones from anyone know.
 
Definitely gonna dump both these goofy plants (I've got 2 of them). They have NO smell whatsoever. All my plants have a little smell even when in veg that get stronger as they flower. I was gonna just watch them to see what happens but if it's a virus . . . hell no!!
I don't take cuts from anyone either - I always grow from seed to avoid this kinda crap.
 

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this is a nasty one. It's visited the UK too.
from at least 2 ( and more likely 10 at least-)
different sources on diff continents.

The ones I know who had success used ogbiowar or essential oils. Others suffered almost bankrupting losses growing this evil ? Whatever it is.
bud is worthless, no resin, no smell or anything.

I would not take clones from anyone know.
Ya gg#4 hopped across the pond and now the duds will spread. It sucks I know from expirience. Keep it clean take strong cuts.
 
Well damn! I've got 2 that I've been watching - freaky as hell! Not cuttings though.
Ken's Grand Daddy Purple - breeder pack - got 2 like this out of 10 seeds. They grew like this from seed and were weird from the start. They've stopped vertical growth and are just getting thicker (brooming). Leaves seem to all be the same size (no large fans) and have a puckered look.
Growing 7 strains this year and this was only strain effected.
No signs of health problems (spotted lower leaves are due to K def from PH problems which is fixed - all new growth looks very green and healthy).
I really doubt just these 2 picked up a virus - I think it's genetic.
I know viruses can mess with genes so my gut says the mother plant had it and the genes of her seeds are altered.
If it was a virus ON the seeds, wouldn't it have spread to the other seeds in the pack?
Maybe I should contact them to let them know they got a problem goin on?
In any case, I won't be buying more of these seeds unless they can guarantee me that they've tested and dumped any effected plants from their breeding stock.
Both have been topped, planted in same batch of soil, treated identically. Dud drinks a lot less water.
Normal GDP on left - Dud(?) on the right.
View attachment 610799
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View attachment 610801
I actually had a lady in my room that looked alot like that gdp on the right last run, she was my larfiest plant and slowest all the way along, weakest branches as well. I thought i had done something early on but maybe i need to go back through some pics
 
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