Dwc woes - constant failure

[hm7]

I'm hoping I can get some help to try to understand what I'm doing wrong. I'm failing over and over with dwc/rdwc and I'm really not sure why - they seem to do fine for the first 2-3 weeks, then they always die off for some reason. It's driving me absolutely mad. I'm not exactly sure what's causing the problems with this new system, but it seems I keep getting some sort of root issues up IN the netpots for some reason.

This is a new system I built. The first/only grow I've done was in a single 5gal bucket - which I barely limped through with hydroguard (which didn't do anything to help prevent with root rot for me). At the end of that run, I decided I was going to do things right this time, and go RDWC with a chiller and run sterile to be safe - which I was sure with all the reading I've done was going to solve my root rot / problems - it has not. I have been trying to get a grow off the ground for the last 4 months straight and every single time, they die off after 2-3 weeks.


I see posts on here, reddit, etc that supposedly have plants that are 20-25 days old with huge, established root systems, and 5-6 nodes with gigantaic canopies - and I just can't understand how people are supposedly accomplishing this. This is the best growth I've ever seen on any attempt so far, and again - these plants are 2-3 weeks old from seed. I don't know if people are counting their "days" differently, maybe starting them off in another system and then transplanting them into DWC later but that still doens't explain the massive roots some people have bursting out of the netpots. I'm having a real hard time understanding how those can be 20-30days old.


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Current system holds about 12gal of water. Consists of 2 buckets, and one larger res with 1/10hp chiller. Main res has 2 large air stones driven off a 5w pump, and each bucket has 1 large air stone in them driven off a 5w pump. I have a new larger dual diaphram air pump on the way, and will be putting 2 air stones in each bucket here within a week - as I'm wondering if maybe I don't have enough air, although ... there seems to be a lot of bubbles in each bucket, and also in my main res - but at this point, I'm throwing darts at the wall to see what sticks. Maybe my problem is not enough air/oxygen despite running a total of 4 stones and having low res temps???


This run has been my best attempt so far - things were going okay, up until just a few days ago when things again started going south for seemingly no reason. The plants just started looking 'sad' and wilted, and then I noticed Bubblegum's leaves starting to curl and brown. Initially, I kept having problems with my media being either too wet or too dry when I was using rockwool or rooters - so ... this run, I gave up on using both of them. I germinated in a paper towel, moved the seedlings to a aero cloner, and let them grow roots out for a good 5-6 days, then moved them into the netpot with only hydroton once the roots were long enough - to avoid having to top feed.


I already lost one and restarted a new one, so Bubblegum is about 3 weeks old now, and Strawberry (the smaller one) is about 2 weeks)

Basic Info:
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Strains: Strawberry Cookies and Banana Bubblegum.
Nutes: CalMag and House and Garden A&B AquaFlakes - Running sterile (pool shock currently trying 5ml per 12gal)

Temp, PH, and PPM are constantly monitored by a Bluelab guardian - I calibrate it regularly.

Air temp: 77-80F
Water temp: 64-66F
Humidity 57-62%
PPM: 320 (coming off tap water, which is about 50-60ppm before anything is added)
PH: 5.6 - 6.2 (drifting slowly upward after a few days)
18/6 schedule
Water is a good 2-3" under the netpots, but hydroton is def staying wet on the bottom (maybe too wet?)

Light is a Mars Hydro FC3000. It's currently sitting about 24" above canopy, and set to 70% intensity


I couldn't find much info on this light as far as how high to run it, or what intensity - so ... I'm kinda guessing here on that.

The only thing I can think of that's caused the issue this round was possibly the light guards that I had cut out of waxy paper plates. I removed them lastnight, but I noticed that there was a small amount of light getting in to my buckets from the outer edge of my net pots regardless of how much hydroton I put in the net pot. I don't know if I'm being overly paranoid about that small amount of light or what, but ... I've seen root issues so often, as soon as these leaves started wilting, I removed them only to discover the hydroton under them was soaking wet. I'm thinking maybe the light guards I had in place were keeping the hydroton from drying out, which, maybe is leading to the roots getting/staying too wet in the net pot - which is leading to root issues and rot developing in the netpot?

The roots were looking pure white and starting to do what I call 'fish-boning' (where they start to get smaller roots coming off the tap roots), but ... for some reason they were looking great, healthy, and growing well - and then just have tanked as quickly as they were progressing and the roots look sad and kinda mushy now, the 'fish-boning' has seemingly collapsed on itself too.

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Any and all help is appreciated. I'm getting extremely frustrated after having countless seedlings die on me and losing months of progress. I feel like everything is in line with where it should be, but I keep struggling for some reason.

Thanks in advance for your advice! I appreciate it.

 

[Aqua Man]

You need to top feed daily until established roots develop. Raise the water to 1” below the net pot and keep light intensity very low until the roots have established

looks to me like the light intensity is stunting them

 

[hm7]

Thanks for the reply!

- I should still be top feeding with the roots being as long as they are and fully down into the buckets? My understanding was, once the roots touched the solution, no more top feeding was necessary?

- Unfortunately, I can't get the water level up any higher than it currently is at. The large res is as full as it can get - the water level equalizes across both buckets and the main res - and the main res is more of a wider/shorter rectangle than the square individual buckets inside.

- Right now, the lights are 24" above the canopy and set to 70%. Do you have any suggestions on distance and intensity? I can't find much information on this light, not even from the manufacturer.

 

[Aqua Man]

Thanks for the reply!

- I should still be top feeding with the roots being as long as they are and fully down into the buckets? My understanding was, once the roots touched the solution, no more top feeding was necessary?

- Unfortunately, I can't get the water level up any higher than it currently is at. The large res is as full as it can get - the water level equalizes across both buckets and the main res.

- Right now, the lights are 24" above the canopy and set to 70%. Do you have any suggestions on distance and intensity? I can't find much information on this light, not even from the manufacturer.

If you download photone app you can read the ppfd and i can give you some numbers to go by. But the LED is a paid add on.

what type of light is it?

you need enough established roots before you stop top feeding

 

[hm7]

Light is a Mars Hydro FC3000 - sitting about 24" above canopy, and set to 70% intensity.

When exactly are the roots 'established enough' to stop top feeding? Once they fully 'fish-bone' down all the way? Once two, three, etc roots touch down?

 

[Aqua Man]

Light is a Mars Hydro FC3000 - sitting about 24" above canopy, and set to 70% intensity.

When exactly are the roots 'established enough' to stop top feeding? Once they fully 'fish-bone' down all the way? Once two, three, etc roots touch down?

How far is the water below the net pot?

you want to top feed daily until you have a good amount of roots in the water. Then once a week

 

[hm7]

I picked up the app and got the LED option. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's saying the light is currently around 23,000 - 24,000 lux.

Water is about 1.5 - 2" under netpot. I can't get it any higher. The hydroton is staying very wet though.


I really think this is still some kind of root issue, the bottom leaves on the oldest one are browning/yellowing and twisting, and the youngest one is droopy and wilting.

 

[geemonty]

If you tug on the roots do they break easily? I had an issue on my current DWC grow, I wasn't getting enough oxygen into the res and roots were rotting. Leaves started twisting and the plant stayed super compact and then the leaves started browning. From the pics they don't look liek they are rotting but the top part is a bit on the brown side.

 

[hm7]

If you tug on the roots do they break easily? I had an issue on my current DWC grow, I wasn't getting enough oxygen into the res and roots were rotting. Leaves started twisting and the plant stayed super compact and then the leaves started browning. From the pics they don't look liek they are rotting but the top part is a bit on the brown side.

I noticed this today too - the parts of the roots that are down into the water are pure white, but the tops coming right out of the net pot do look brown - this is the same issue I've been constantly battling. I was absolutely convinced this issue (up until this attempt) was due to the rockwool or rapid rooters I was trying to use staying too wet, and the rot was setting in from there. However, this time, I've eliminated them completely - so I'm dumbfounded as to where/how I'm still managing to get brown roots/root related issues.

I haven't tried pulling on them, as they're super stressed right now after I dumped and refilled the res yesterday and gave them a little peroxide soak. In my past experience when I did peroxide soaks in my single 5gal bucket, I always had roots fall off so I definitely know what you mean. I didn't notice any of that when I soaked them yesterday though.


I am definitely starting to wonder if the single small air pump driving 1 stone in each bucket is not providing the oxygen that's needed. The much larger dual diaphram air pump should be here in a few days - going to switch to that and double up on the air stones in each bucket and see if that helps.



In the mean time - I've dropped the light intensity to 50% (that app claims its around 18,000 lux now), and I've also given them a top feeding here manually. Hopefully, the top feeding can get some of the shock into the hydroton/netpot and clear up whatever might be in there. I always assumed once the root touched down, top feeding could be stopped completely, but perhaps not.

 

[Aqua Man]

I noticed this today too - the parts of the roots that are down into the water are pure white, but the tops coming right out of the net pot do look brown - this is the same issue I've been constantly battling. I was absolutely convinced this issue (up until this attempt) was due to the rockwool or rapid rooters I was trying to use staying too wet, and the rot was setting in from there. However, this time, I've eliminated them completely - so I'm dumbfounded as to where/how I'm still managing to get brown roots/root related issues.

I haven't tried pulling on them, as they're super stressed right now after I dumped and refilled the res yesterday and gave them a little peroxide soak. In my past experience when I did peroxide soaks in my single 5gal bucket, I always had roots fall off so I definitely know what you mean. I didn't notice any of that when I soaked them yesterday though.


I am definitely starting to wonder if the single small air pump driving 1 stone in each bucket is not providing the oxygen that's needed. The much larger dual diaphram air pump should be here in a few days - going to switch to that and double up on the air stones in each bucket and see if that helps.



In the mean time - I've dropped the light intensity to 50% (that app claims its around 18,000 lux now), and I've also given them a top feeding here manually. Hopefully, the top feeding can get some of the shock into the hydroton/netpot and clear up whatever might be in there. I always assumed once the root touched down, top feeding could be stopped completely, but perhaps not.

Thats why you need to top feed and ise bacteria and enzymes or sterile.

Did you set the app to LED? Thwy should be around 10,000 for how small they are

 

[hm7]

Thats why you need to top feed and ise bacteria and enzymes or sterile.

Did you set the app to LED? Thwy should be around 10,000 for how small they are

Gotchya, that makes sense. Maybe that's the piece of the puzzle I've been missing that's giving me these troubles. Hopefully these pull through, they're looking pretty rough.


- Is it worth setting up a permanent top feed system to just constantly drip down?

- I did set the app to LED. I will drop the intensity down to get it to 10k. Is the distance still okay at 24"? I'm left wondering if it's better to adjust distance or intensity to get the lux where it needs to be.

 

[Aqua Man]

Gotchya, that makes sense. Maybe that's the piece of the puzzle I've been missing that's giving me these troubles. Hopefully these pull through, they're looking pretty rough.


- Is it worth setting up a permanent top feed system to just constantly drip down?

- I did set the app to LED. I will drop the intensity down to get it to 10k. Is the distance still okay at 24"? I'm left wondering if it's better to adjust distance or intensity to get the lux where it needs to be.

set distance to get even coverage and intensity for just that… intensity.

ifyour not using a sterile or live method then you need to be

 

[hm7]

set distance to get even coverage and intensity for just that… intensity.

you your not using a sterile or luve method then you need to be

Using sterile - chlorine. 5ml for 12gal. Although, I'm not sure how often I should be adding this. I'm already wondering if maybe this is too much, and it 'burnt' the roots.

 

[Aqua Man]

Using sterile - chlorine. 5ml for 12gal. Although, I'm not sure how often I should be adding this. I'm already wondering if maybe this is too much, and it 'burnt' the roots.

Yeah id ditch chlorine… i mean it can work but imo a live system is much easier to maintain. im not sure about the dose of chlorine but i can help you if you go live or switch to h2o2

 

[hm7]

Yeah id ditch chlorine… i mean it can work but imo a live system is much easier to maintain. im not sure about the dose of chlorine but i can help you if you go live or switch to h2o2

I was wanting to try sterile this round as I had such a horrible experience with bennies in my 5gal dwc last round. It never cleared up no matter what I did, everything got slimed horribly, I was cleaning everything 2-3 times a week. Was not wanting to revisit that in this system after that experience, and definitely was not wanting to get slime inside the chiller either.

I had horrible luck with both Hydroguard and Orca on that 5gal bucket. If sterile fails me again, I'll try some Southern AG, but I'm really worried about sliming everything in this setup again with a live system.


The only thing that saved my last grow was h2o2 - absolutely magical what it did. It never completely cleared everything as it was too far gone, but it did get me through the grow. I'd love to go full h2o2 going forward if I could, but it's expensive. I've got some 12% here now to use in a pinch, but it's not easy to find, nor cheap.



Maybe I didn't add the hydroguard/orca often enough or something? I'm not sure. I was only adding it once a week at each res empty/refill. Maybe that stuff needs to be added every couple of days? I'm assuming chlorine, h202, of even Southern AG are going to be the same - probably need to be added every few days. I could never tell if the slime that was all over my roots/stones/tubing/etc was 'normal' for a live system, and if it was just the 'good' bacteria growing on stuff, or if it was bad stuff that was already established. I don't know. Either way, it was a horrible, constant mess.


There's so much conflicting information about this stuff online - everyone seems to have their own opinion on how much of everything should be added and how often that it's extremely confusing - and they're all radically different from each other.

 

[Aqua Man]

I was wanting to try sterile this round as I had such a horrible experience with bennies in my 5gal dwc last round. It never cleared up no matter what I did, everything got slimed horribly, I was cleaning everything 2-3 times a week. Was not wanting to revisit that in this system after that experience, and definitely was not wanting to get slime inside the chiller either.

I had horrible luck with both Hydroguard and Orca on that 5gal bucket. If sterile fails me again, I'll try some Southern AG, but I'm really worried about sliming everything in this setup again with a live system.


The only thing that saved my last grow was h2o2 - absolutely magical what it did. It never completely cleared everything as it was too far gone, but it did get me through the grow. I'd love to go full h2o2 going forward if I could, but it's expensive. I've got some 12% here now to use in a pinch, but it's not easy to find, nor cheap.



Maybe I didn't add the hydroguard/orca often enough or something? I'm not sure. I was only adding it once a week at each res empty/refill. Maybe that stuff needs to be added every couple of days? I'm assuming chlorine, h202, of even Southern AG are going to be the same - probably need to be added every few days.


There's so much conflicting information about this stuff online - everyone seems to have their own opinion on how much of everything should be added and how often that it's extremely confusing - and they're all radically different from each other.

Just at the gym but when im done i can go through all your experience and try to pin point your issues. To much slime is bacteria and an indication you have to much organics… either from nutrient or decay

 

[hm7]

Just at the gym but when im done i can go through all your experience and try to pin point your issues. To much slime is bacteria and an indication you have to much organics… either from nutrient or decay

I was using AN Sensi A & B that round with hydroguard. Everything was fine in the beginning, until I added B52 (which I believe is kelp based, but they claim it's supposed to be DWC friendly). Within 8 hours of adding B52, the entire system slimed horribly - and I could never get rid of it. I could only 'keep it in check' by cleaning everything once a week in veg.

Once I flipped her, I used Bud Candy after reading such great things and the problem intensified 10x - the slime was horrible every time I used that stuff - it was from that point forward that I was having to clean and soak everything 2-3x a week throughout the entirty of flowering until finish just to get through the grow - and even then, I was obviously still dealing with problems. I switched from Hydroguard 1/2 way through flower to Orca hoping to see an improvement, but it didn't help. I'm still amazed it made it through to the end.

I contacted AN near the end when things started getting really bad after I added BudCandy, and they weren't a whole lot of help - only saying that 'b52 and bud candy won't cause these issues', then basically advised running a ton of h202 through the system, but she was so close to the end at that point, I just continued manually (and very carefully) cleaning everything by hand several times a week. It got really old.



After that experience, I switched to H&G Aquaflakes this time, and am now afraid of using any sort of additives at all for fear of sliming everything in this new system.

 

[Aqua Man]

I was using AN Sensi A & B that round with hydroguard. Everything was fine in the beginning, until I added B52 (which I believe is kelp based, but they claim it's supposed to be DWC friendly). Within 8 hours of adding B52, the entire system slimed horribly - and I could never get rid of it. I could only 'keep it in check' by cleaning everything once a week in veg.

Once I flipped her, I used Bud Candy after reading such great things and the problem intensified 10x - the slime was horrible every time I used that stuff - it was from that point forward that I was having to clean and soak everything 2-3x a week throughout the entirty of flowering until finish just to get through the grow - and even then, I was obviously still dealing with problems. I switched from Hydroguard 1/2 way through flower to Orca hoping to see an improvement, but it didn't help. I'm still amazed it made it through to the end.

I contacted AN near the end when things started getting really bad after I added BudCandy, and they weren't a whole lot of help - only saying that 'b52 and bud candy won't cause these issues', then basically advised running a ton of h202 through the system, but she was so close to the end at that point, I just continued manually (and very carefully) cleaning everything by hand several times a week. It got really old.



After that experience, I switched to H&G Aquaflakes this time, and am now afraid of using any sort of additives at all for fear of sliming everything in this new system.

Yeah avoid the organics in hydro… if you have a small source thats ok but then you must use enzymes to break it down fast but ideally stay away from them. Every nute manufacturer is going to say their stuff is good for everything but yeah you obviously have seen thats not the case

an easy one i found was mega crop 2 part with massive in flower. Silica and fulvic acid are good additives and thats all you need unless your looking to boost sulfur at the end. Potassium sulphate, mag sulphate or something like floralicious that contains those is also ok

 

[hm7]

Yeah avoid the organics in hydro… if you have a small source thats ok but then you must use enzymes to break it down fast but ideally stay away from them. Every nute manufacturer is going to say their stuff is good for everything but yeah you obviously have seen thats not the case

an easy one i found was mega crop 2 part with massive in flower. Silica and fulvic acid are good additives and thats all you need unless your looking to boost sulfur at the end. Potassium sulphate, mag sulphate or something like floralicious that contains those is also ok

Good to know. I haven't looked into that one yet, but kind of want to use up what I have now. I'm hoping I can just get by with a solid 2-part base, and I also really liked AN's silica last round and plan to run that again as it truly worked very well. Beyond that, I just want to get to a point where I can get reliably through something start to finish without major issues lol. It's been a constant up-hill battle so far, and it's frustrating to look at all these supposed first time growers/first time hydro grows online who have seemingly stunning, flawless plants with zero issues and huge growth - then look at all my failed attempts and issues and wonder what I'm constantly doing wrong regardless of what I try or change.

 

[Aqua Man]

Good to know. I haven't looked into that one yet, but kind of want to use up what I have now. I'm hoping I can just get by with a solid 2-part base, and I also really liked AN's silica last round and plan to run that again as it truly worked very well. Beyond that, I just want to get to a point where I can get reliably through something start to finish without major issues lol. It's been a constant up-hill battle so far, and it's frustrating to look at all these supposed first time growers/first time hydro grows online who have seemingly stunning, flawless plants with zero issues and huge growth - then look at all my failed attempts and issues and wonder what I'm constantly doing wrong regardless of what I try or change.

well if you go basic and keep it aimple its pretty easy if you keep your environment and parameters in check. Sgit happens to the best of us and you just meed to take it as a learning experience… hell i always have self created issues from being lazy while knowing better. Youll get there and then you will get lazy and still have some issues to learn from.