Dwc woes - constant failure

Aqua Man · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
Maybe I am rushing, but again - I'm seeing people starting tiny seedlings out in their netpots with no issues. If they can do it successfully without issue, why are mine failing when I try? I see so many posts of people with 2 week old plants that are a tiny little bush, vibrant, huge, and green - and here I am after a month with yellowing 1" plants that are wilting.

I'm absolutely convinced going back to rooters is going to just lead to more failure. I'll top feed them, they'll drown, and that'll be the end of it. I played that game for the last 6 months and that was the result every single time. I started with rockwool, went to rooters. I had less damping off when I went to rooters than I did with rockwool, but the rooters were still staying too wet and root rot was still setting in.

I don't understand how people are top feeding rooters/rockwool without causing drowning/damping off issues. Sure, I see people do it, just like I mentioned about the guy literally having a 24/7 stream pouring onto his rockwool. I sit there with a little dripper and put 1-2ml of water around the edge of my hydroton or cube and wham - they drown.

fair enough i tried but sometimes you just need to do what you need to do. You cant water a seedling in a plug daily until the roots are that established.… no different than if you water them daily before putting them in the system…. The point is they should no go into the system until they can handle that…. No matter what others can do.

once you put them into the system they need to be able to handle being saturated as all the humid air will come up through the hydroton.

But like i say.… sometimes pol beed to figure thing’s out on their own. But eventually you will come to this conclusion on your own

Frostie069 · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
Maybe I am rushing, but again - I'm seeing people starting tiny seedlings out in their netpots with no issues. If they can do it successfully without issue, why are mine failing when I try? I see so many posts of people with 2 week old plants that are a tiny little bush, vibrant, huge, and green - and here I am after a month with yellowing 1" plants that are wilting.

I'm absolutely convinced going back to rooters is going to just lead to more failure. I'll top feed them, they'll drown, and that'll be the end of it. I played that game for the last 6 months and that was the result every single time. I started with rockwool, went to rooters. I had less damping off when I went to rooters than I did with rockwool, but the rooters were still staying too wet and root rot was still setting in.

I don't understand how people are top feeding rooters/rockwool without causing drowning/damping off issues. Sure, I see people do it, just like I mentioned about the guy literally having a 24/7 stream pouring onto his rockwool. I sit there with a little dripper and put 1-2ml of water around the edge of my hydroton or cube and wham - they drown.

you need to really examine some timelines, I am currently using other peoples NFT grow timelines to compare mine.

At a glance I'm way behind, then when examined there must have been 5-7 days of growth unaccounted for between germ and Rockwool, the seedling went from two partially opened finger leaves on day 7 to week1 veg Rockwool two nodes, once I noticed this I was actually kind of on track.

My advice as we seem quite similar, while always looking around, focus on you and your grow. moe and aqua are DWC certified from what I understand so id be listening to them as they achieve this explosive growth we both seek and im with you, sometimes rather than push shit uphill just bin it and start again, but if I did, id be taking step by steps from those two blokes in DWC

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Moe.Red said:
Are you saying that the black nasty stuff starts early on the hydroton and moves to the roots?

Too late to get a closeup of the black spot? Are you certain there were no pests like root aphids?

I flushed the plants/roots last night... but I did take some pictures before doing so. Not the best, but yes, some kind of black crap got on these. I don't know what it is, but this was on the roots *in* the netpot / buried in the hydroton. I think the problems I have start in there, then ... as the roots grow down / I top feed, I flush whatever crap is in there down into the nutrient solution which contaminates the rest of the system.

I don't know what it is or how it gets there. I originally thought it was coming from a batch of contaminated rooters.... but considering this time I didn't use any rooter - that can't be the case.

Yes, there aren't any bugs/pests. I've never seen anything/anything resembling any sort of bug/pest in any of my attempts or my first attempt in the solo bucket last year either.

Moe.Red · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
Okay, so how can light leaks through PVC not be a problem, but a tiny little bit of light through the edge of my netpot where my hydroton is be a huge concern? I'm not arguing, I legitimately am trying to understand as I am confused.

Light on roots needs to be as close to zero as possible. There is not enough light transfer thru 3" PVC to even maintain life. Algae do not grow there for example. I know this from years of personal experience.

Light that leaks thru the hydroton on brand new roots is perhaps the most damaging of all. But these roots are no where near getting light from the plumbing, if they get it its from the substrate. Coco and perlite stops this issue, hydroton does not.

Aqua Man · Oct 8, 2022

I fucked around with a lot of different things and continue to do so. I like to test limits and learn things for myself. I have yet to have a perfect grow and i prob never will because of my need to test limits, learn and understand why but im good with that.

The one thing i cannot seem to donis take my own advice. Even when i know what i should do…. I don’t and for now im good with that

Bluebuddha · Oct 8, 2022

@hm7 If anyone tells you "oh it's easy", they're full of shit. The ease comes from continuous trial and error.

I've grown indoor soil, outdoor in the ground, indoor hydroton dwc where I popped the seeds in the hydroton (pure luck), dwc perlite/vermiculite (failed hard), dwc under 1650 watts MH and HPS w starter plus(fucking flawless victory) , rapid rooters with seedlings and those pos plugs killed 80% of the seedlings.

I bought a complete new everything. Lights, containers, hydroton, air pump, Jack's etc etc. I bleached the shit outta the hydroton the tubs the airstones I let em sit for days in heavy bleached water. Got clones in and everything seemed in point. Shit went south and after changing res' new nutes , backing the light off, dropping ppm low, i thought I was killing em with kindness. So picked up one of the clones and low and behold fucking snot slime!!! I thought to myself how the fuck is this even possible.

Ordered, hydroguard, orca, and S AG. Dumped everything out resterilized, washed the roots and doubled up on recommended doses of the bennies. Next day there's huge fucking globs of brown snot shit fucking sewage stank in the roots. I lose my shit, run my babies to the kitchen and spray em off and cleaned all that gunk off. ( Knee jerk reaction). Only after calming down did I realize that what I was seeing is a bloom of the good bennies feasting on whatever that bad shit was. I haven't changed the res and the roots are slime free. I'm just now getting green growth back.

So dude, don't give up. Keep trying, adapting and learning from your mistakes, take a breather and think of a common denominator in the problem.

When you get past this, you'll have learned so much and taken your skills to the next level.

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Frostie069 said:
you need to really examine some timelines, I am currently using other peoples NFT grow timelines to compare mine.

At a glance I'm way behind, then when examined there must have been 5-7 days of growth unaccounted for between germ and Rockwool, the seedling went from two partially opened finger leaves on day 7 to week1 veg Rockwool two nodes, once I noticed this I was actually kind of on track.

My advice as we seem quite similar, while always looking around, focus on you and your grow. moe and aqua are DWC certified from what I understand so id be listening to them as they achieve this explosive growth we both seek and im with you, sometimes rather than push shit uphill just bin it and start again, but if I did, id be taking step by steps from those two blokes in DWC

Yeah, that's something else I've been suspecting is a lot of people are like "day X", but they don't explain what day X actually is. Is that days from starting the seed, is that days starting from it popping from the rooter, is that days from putting it in the netpot? - I don't know, and this is really confusing to someone like me who is trying to understand how far along my plants should be and if they are stunting or on track.

Frostie069 · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
And this is the same thing I've been running into for the last 6 months too. I read over and over online "don't add any nutes for the first 3 weeks! - only give straight plain water!". Every single time I have done that, my plants instantly turn yellow and get deficiency issues. That's why this time I have tried adding a small amount of nutes in the beginning. The plants were MUCH better this round, they were green instead of yellow - but, root rot was still there.

I think a big part of my problem getting into my system this time was trying to follow H&G's full line of recommended stuff. All that roots excel, amino treatment, etc - they're like dumping motor oil into the res - and I think that's where something started and has possibly latched on/is now growing somewhere in the system I can't get to.

I got rid of all the additives, only using calmag, and Aquaflakes A and B - nothing else. No other additives. In attempts before this, I've tried GH nutes, Advanced, and now H&G. Clearly, it's something wrong with me/what I'm doing, not the nutes - although I still believe there are some nutes, as Aqua Man and I have discussed that can cause problems inside a res that's not 100% clean.

hm7 said:
Yeah, that's something else I've been suspecting is a lot of people are like "day X", but they don't explain what day X actually is. Is that days from starting the seed, is that days starting from it popping from the rooter, is that days from putting it in the netpot? - I don't know, and this is really confusing to someone like me who is trying to understand how far along my plants should be and if they are stunting or on track.

yeah I hear ya, very difficult.

what I learnt last grow mate is its all in the leaves, the leaves kind of talk to you hahaha.

understand the leaves mate and life will be beautiful. the moment they're unhappy they tell you, then its just a matter of cause which we have to find ASAP to stop further decline.

Also what i learnt last time, I delayed a root inspection while troubleshooting, now I go straight to the roots.

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Moe.Red said:
Light on roots needs to be as close to zero as possible. There is not enough light transfer thru 3" PVC to even maintain life. Algae do not grow there for example. I know this from years of personal experience.

Light that leaks thru the hydroton on brand new roots is perhaps the most damaging of all. But these roots are no where near getting light from the plumbing, if they get it its from the substrate. Coco and perlite stops this issue, hydroton does not.

That makes sense, thank you for your explanation. I'm not sure how but ... I can try to find some way to cover them up. I've been trying to find a way to be able to cover the netpots/hydroton completely up to the stem without hurting the plant, yet still allowing me to gain easy access to top feeding them. I haven't been able to figure out a solution to this yet. Every time I've tried to cover them up with paper plats, or some kind of foam - I've found the hydroton just sits and stays wet.... and then I'm worried that's causing some sort of fungus to grow in there, kick starting my problems and eventual downfall.

Again, this is me being in internal conflict with myself for not knowing if I'm helping or hurting things.

Aqua Man said:
I fucked around with a lot of different things and continue to do so. I like to test limits and learn things for myself. I have yet to have a perfect grow and i prob never will because of my need to test limits, learn and understand why but im good with that.

The one thing i cannot seem to donis take my own advice. Even when i know what i should do…. I don’t and for now im good with that

I definitely am not expecting a perfect grow. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out how to get beyond 2 weeks without getting root rot and having my plants die every time.

Aqua Man · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
Yeah, that's something else I've been suspecting is a lot of people are like "day X", but they don't explain what day X actually is. Is that days from starting the seed, is that days starting from it popping from the rooter, is that days from putting it in the netpot? - I don't know, and this is really confusing to someone like me who is trying to understand how far along my plants should be and if they are stunting or on track.

May i suggest to stop looking at others? Its only your olants that you need to worry about and they are on their schedule, not yours or anyone elses. The best growers are flexible growers.

You make a plan and stick to it while sitting on your hands waiting for the plants to tell you what to adjust and when.

The only right answer you’ll find in cannabis is that there is no one answer that fits all. If it take 3 weeks to get what someone else is getting in a week there are many reasons why that maybe the case… could be something as simple as genetics.

A plant needs what it need when it needs it. schedules are nothing but guidelines

Aqua Man · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
That makes sense, thank you for your explanation. I'm not sure how but ... I can try to find some way to cover them up. I've been trying to find a way to be able to cover the netpots/hydroton completely up to the stem without hurting the plant, yet still allowing me to gain easy access to top feeding them. I haven't been able to figure out a solution to this yet. Every time I've tried to cover them up with paper plats, or some kind of foam - I've found the hydroton just sits and stays wet.... and then I'm worried that's causing some sort of fungus to grow in there, kick starting my problems and eventual downfall.

Again, this is me being in internal conflict with myself for not knowing if I'm helping or hurting things.

I definitely am not expecting a perfect grow. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out how to get beyond 2 weeks without getting root rot and having my plants die every time.

For atarters leave them out of the system for as ling as it takes to get a good root mass to start with. Starting with a healthy eatablished seedling is 90% of the battle

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Bluebuddha said:
@hm7 If anyone tells you "oh it's easy", they're full of shit. The ease comes from continuous trial and error.

I've grown indoor soil, outdoor in the ground, indoor hydroton dwc where I popped the seeds in the hydroton (pure luck), dwc perlite/vermiculite (failed hard), dwc under 1650 watts MH and HPS w starter plus(fucking flawless victory) , rapid rooters with seedlings and those pos plugs killed 80% of the seedlings.

I bought a complete new everything. Lights, containers, hydroton, air pump, Jack's etc etc. I bleached the shit outta the hydroton the tubs the airstones I let em sit for days in heavy bleached water. Got clones in and everything seemed in point. Shit went south and after changing res' new nutes , backing the light off, dropping ppm low, i thought I was killing em with kindness. So picked up one of the clones and low and behold fucking snot slime!!! I thought to myself how the fuck is this even possible.

Ordered, hydroguard, orca, and S AG. Dumped everything out resterilized, washed the roots and doubled up on recommended doses of the bennies. Next day there's huge fucking globs of brown snot shit fucking sewage stank in the roots. I lose my shit, run my babies to the kitchen and spray em off and cleaned all that gunk off. ( Knee jerk reaction). Only after calming down did I realize that what I was seeing is a bloom of the good bennies feasting on whatever that bad shit was. I haven't changed the res and the roots are slime free. I'm just now getting green growth back.

So dude, don't give up. Keep trying, adapting and learning from your mistakes, take a breather and think of a common denominator in the problem.

When you get past this, you'll have learned so much and taken your skills to the next level.

Wow yeah, this sounds exactly like what I've been fighting.

That has been my *EXACT* experience when I tried to run a live/beneficial system. I started with Hydroguard, then went to Orca - both times I got this nasty brown snot/slime all over everything. I spent my *entire* first grow in my solo 5gal bucket dealing with that, and I would take the plants out of the bucket 2-3 times a week - every single week - and carefully soak the roots in room-temp water mixed with h2o2 and carefully try to clean the root slime stuff off by hand. Things would look great, then 2 days later, I'd wake up and they'd be covered in brown snot/slime crap again! Rinse and repeat

And this is another thing I can't seem to find an answer to and I've wondered myself - was that brown snot/slime crap I "battled" actually root rot/bad bacteria, or was it the good bacteria? Would it have cleared up if I left it alone? Would it have killed my plants off? I don't know. These are the questions I can't really find an answer to, and now I'm so petrified of sliming my new system and my chiller - I've been too afraid to try to run bennies again.

Frostie069 · Oct 8, 2022

Aqua Man said:
May i suggest to stop looking at others? Its only your olants that you need to worry about and they are on their schedule, not yours or anyone elses. The best growers are flexible growers.

You make a plan and stick to it while sitting on your hands waiting for the plants to tell you what to adjust and when.

The only right answer you’ll find in cannabis is that there is no one answer that fits all. If it take 3 weeks to get what someone else is getting in a week there are many reasons why that maybe the case… could be something as simple as genetics.

A plant needs what it need when it needs it. schedules are nothing but guidelines

put that shit in a cannabis growing bible

geemonty · Oct 8, 2022

I wonder if changing up your grow method temporarily would be helpful to your sanity lol. Might be worth just getting a simple soil grow under your belt and get a feel for the plants.

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Aqua Man said:
May i suggest to stop looking at others? Its only your olants that you need to worry about and they are on their schedule, not yours or anyone elses.

You're absolutely right, but it's difficult to do when you run into people posting pictures of their plants after 2 weeks and going "your plants should be a small bush by now man, something's wrong. Start over".

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

geemonty said:
I wonder if changing up your grow method temporarily would be helpful to your sanity lol. Might be worth just getting a simple soil grow under your belt and get a feel for the plants.

I've been drawn to hydro due to the low chance of bringing bugs/pests into my house. My buddy has been trying to get me to just switch to coco, again claiming "it's so easy - you'll have no problems guarantied!". At this point, I have literally thousands invested in this setup, chiller, res, buckets, netpots, air pumps, water pumps, stones etc etc etc....

Frostie069 · Oct 8, 2022

hm7 said:
I've been drawn to hydro due to the low chance of bringing bugs/pests into my house. My buddy has been trying to get me to just switch to coco, again claiming "it's so easy - you'll have no problems guarantied!". At this point, I have literally thousands invested in this setup, chiller, res, buckets, netpots, air pumps, water pumps, stones etc etc etc....

yep we're too far gone to turn back now, so I spent more money on it, just to reaffirm failure is not an option hahaha

beluga · Oct 8, 2022

There was light leaking through everything on this system. You can even see algae trying to catch a grip but failing because of the salt buildup.

This isn't to combat the common knowledge that light on roots = bad, but maybe just to give an example of how established root systems can shrug off environmental stresses.

Get some roots going. Even if you need to ask us twice a day whether or not they need water.

hm7 · Oct 8, 2022

Bluebuddha said:
@hm7
Ordered, hydroguard, orca, and S AG. Dumped everything out resterilized, washed the roots and doubled up on recommended doses of the bennies. Next day there's huge fucking globs of brown snot shit fucking sewage stank in the roots. I lose my shit, run my babies to the kitchen and spray em off and cleaned all that gunk off. ( Knee jerk reaction). Only after calming down did I realize that what I was seeing is a bloom of the good bennies feasting on whatever that bad shit was. I haven't changed the res and the roots are slime free.

I'd really like to know more about this. Are you saying that the slime cleared up on it's own, without you doing anything else other than just letting the slime continue to thrive and do its thing? How long did it take? Once it left, it never came back?

That opens up even more questions - how much was added, how often. Where/how was it added - directly to the res, or through the netpot. etc etc etc. I think maybe I'm overthinking a lot of this stuff, but I legitimately don't know, and it makes me question all aspects of this, which is undoubtedly part of my problem now. I've failed so many times, that now I just don't even trust myself to be able to handle the most basic of things without F'ing the grow up someway/somehow.

So much of this seems like common sense to everyone, except me it seems.

Frostie069 said:
yep we're too far gone to turn back now, so I spent more money on it, just to reaffirm failure is not an option hahaha

Yeah, that's exactly where I am with this. I've got way too much invested to turn back/change methods now, and I just keep spending more and getting different things thinking it will help fix my issues. "Maybe it's not enough o2" -> Get massive air pumps. "Maybe it's not the right kind of bubbles" -> Get different stones. "Maybe my recirc pump isn't moving enough solution" -> get a larger pump. "Maybe it's the nutes" -> try another brand, etc etc etc... It just goes on and on and on. I've got a whole closet full of old hardware laying around now, it's just ridiculous/pathetic.

geemonty · Oct 8, 2022

beluga said:
There was light leaking through everything on this system. You can even see algae trying to catch a grip but failing because of the salt buildup.

This isn't to combat the common knowledge that light on roots = bad, but maybe just to give an example of how established root systems can shrug off environmental stresses.

Get some roots going. Even if you need to ask us twice a day whether or not they need water.

Do you flower your plants that densely packed? Haven't seen hydro systems so densely packed with plants that large.

Dwc woes - constant failure

Dwc woes - constant failure

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