Early frostiness // selection

[Kush Dreams]

Sup farmers, after a year and three long months
of excruciatingly slow learning and fucking up many plants.

I've finally got this shiit down enough to reliably
(adequately) flower so I"m running a small hunt.

[Boku no jinx]

Finally getting to the questions I have and thought would be informative to other endeavoring phenohunters.

Basically when does frost really start to show,.
buds depicted are at Day 22 as an example, being my current run.

An HSO 707 headband and Gorilla Breath.

Would/could frost already be more visible at this point given optimal conditions// how can I further improve my existing setup on the cheap (though not diy)

In 4.8l~~ of ecothrive coco receiving their first full bloom feed of biobizz at 1.2ms/ec.

How high of an ec I should push is one of the things and my train game is still lacking but I can say I'm happy with my girls. (Though this thread is not to that purpose)

Just barely in the clear vpd wise too I think

The ☀ is provided by a 120w optic bloom enhancer
In a 60x60 tent 45cm above canopy at 100% power.
Optic rates this one to yield 288g max in this.

For space I'm optimal with this light but I'm shooting for 2-3 ounces on the 707 and 1-2 on the GB.
This light also provides UV/IR and the Emerson effect
So I'm covered in those regards.

Going over 1g/w would be an amazing feat to me so here's hoping I can reap what I sowed in this year of progress.

Shibby most the deets

Apologies for the rambling datadump hope it isn't too harsh on yee eyes.

Thanks for the read, looking forward to replies.

Almost lost the draft oh jeebus

 

[Nugg]

1g.per/w...well.. with that small light.. really small plates... maybe veg.longer...better light..change out medium to a faster growing medium...just some thoughts..

 

[Kush Dreams]

1g.per/w...well.. with that small light.. really small plates... maybe veg.longer...better light..change out medium to a faster growing medium...just some thoughts..

As I said it's a hope and I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing and asking soms questions about your post.

PPF to PPFD Calculator

Enter Total PPF output of Lamp in µmol or PPF. To calcualte this simply multiply the efficiency of the LED lamp with its power. A 2.5 PPF/W or 2.5µmol/j lamp with 480 watts will have 1200 µmol or PPF output. Enter Length and Width in feet. These are the dimensions of your target area. Percentage...

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Using this website with the factory specs from



PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6
The only "fail point" for this calculation as I'm assuming this is the formula.

Plugging that into the handy dandy HLG calculator outputs with 75% of light reaching the target as a low ball results: 588.52 PPFD.

An already respectable PPFD

However since I'm scrogging 95%+ shibby more accurate.

In regards to slow growth medium I'm running handwattered coco which is faster than soil but slower than drip coco, (R)DWC, NFT.

So I should be good on that account as well.

Then about the small plates, do you mean my plants leaves as in I should've let them mature more before the flip?

once again feel free to point out any fallacies.
to grow (badum) and learn is the name of the game.

thanks for the response!

A source to the PPFD efficiency chart I used.
And the growth rates associated with these levels
(Another forum but as a source it should be okay to link here no)

PPFD Graphs and Analysis

Hello, this will be a continuation of my last thread, where I hand-measured and plotted the PPFD of Amare and Mars LED's with a hydrofarm PAR meter. Since then, I've also measured the Mars Reflector 192, Philips CMH 315w, etc. The point of this research is to determine the optimal footprint and...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Nugg]

Nice.. medium is good,as you'll get other than then mentioned...I like your efforts in research..I'm saying the size of the light..as in dimension..you may hit the lower number needed for bud with it but the area for that par required will be same size as light...and maybe you should veg.longer..you said you wanted more so many grams..to me you don't have enough plant or lights to achieve....I completely understand about the ppfd of led lights..all box lights are junk unless you pay out your ass...IDK if you even mentioned what light you're using..but if you look at the graph it will show you how big of a area it will cover for flowering...I'm sure in your research you came across ppfd need for flowering cannabis...compare the numbers..bet you'll find you have about a 1' cover area, maybe 2'..hell my mars 2 1600. Only cover a 3'×3' in flower....let me know..and don't get butt hurt..I most definitely won't..

 

[Anthem]

As I said it's a hope and I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing and asking soms questions about your post.

PPF to PPFD Calculator

Enter Total PPF output of Lamp in µmol or PPF. To calcualte this simply multiply the efficiency of the LED lamp with its power. A 2.5 PPF/W or 2.5µmol/j lamp with 480 watts will have 1200 µmol or PPF output. Enter Length and Width in feet. These are the dimensions of your target area. Percentage...

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Using this website with the factory specs from



PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6
The only "fail point" for this calculation as I'm assuming this is the formula.

Plugging that into the handy dandy HLG calculator outputs with 75% of light reaching the target as a low ball results: 588.52 PPFD.

An already respectable PPFD

However since I'm scrogging 95%+ shibby more accurate.

In regards to slow growth medium I'm running handwattered coco which is faster than soil but slower than drip coco, (R)DWC, NFT.

So I should be good on that account as well.

Then about the small plates, do you mean my plants leaves as in I should've let them mature more before the flip?

once again feel free to point out any fallacies.
to grow (badum) and learn is the name of the game.

thanks for the response!

A source to the PPFD efficiency chart I used.
And the growth rates associated with these levels
(Another forum but as a source it should be okay to link here no)

PPFD Graphs and Analysis

Hello, this will be a continuation of my last thread, where I hand-measured and plotted the PPFD of Amare and Mars LED's with a hydrofarm PAR meter. Since then, I've also measured the Mars Reflector 192, Philips CMH 315w, etc. The point of this research is to determine the optimal footprint and...

www.420magazine.com

I am sorry but Nugg is correct, you do not have enough light. An once per plant would be about the best I can see from the photos.

 

[maximusluminous]

As I said it's a hope and I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing and asking soms questions about your post.

PPF to PPFD Calculator

Enter Total PPF output of Lamp in µmol or PPF. To calcualte this simply multiply the efficiency of the LED lamp with its power. A 2.5 PPF/W or 2.5µmol/j lamp with 480 watts will have 1200 µmol or PPF output. Enter Length and Width in feet. These are the dimensions of your target area. Percentage...

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Using this website with the factory specs from



PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6
The only "fail point" for this calculation as I'm assuming this is the formula.

Plugging that into the handy dandy HLG calculator outputs with 75% of light reaching the target as a low ball results: 588.52 PPFD.

An already respectable PPFD

However since I'm scrogging 95%+ shibby more accurate.

In regards to slow growth medium I'm running handwattered coco which is faster than soil but slower than drip coco, (R)DWC, NFT.

So I should be good on that account as well.

Then about the small plates, do you mean my plants leaves as in I should've let them mature more before the flip?

once again feel free to point out any fallacies.
to grow (badum) and learn is the name of the game.

thanks for the response!

A source to the PPFD efficiency chart I used.
And the growth rates associated with these levels
(Another forum but as a source it should be okay to link here no)

PPFD Graphs and Analysis

Hello, this will be a continuation of my last thread, where I hand-measured and plotted the PPFD of Amare and Mars LED's with a hydrofarm PAR meter. Since then, I've also measured the Mars Reflector 192, Philips CMH 315w, etc. The point of this research is to determine the optimal footprint and...

www.420magazine.com

That optic light is NOT
"PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6"

the best high quality LED's struggle to achieve 2.3PPF, the best of the best are hitting 2.5PPF, they must take that measurement in a 1'x1' area or exactly however big that light is in size & maybe 10 inches below it, sheesh..lol. That light is not that good, not even almost but 3 of them would prolly be pretty good, now there are also much worse LED's out there don't get me wrong.. at 120 watts that light is good for 3 square feet maybe 4 at very best, just FYI!

 

[Kush Dreams]

Nice.. medium is good,as you'll get other than then mentioned...I like your efforts in research..I'm saying the size of the light..as in dimension..you may hit the lower number needed for bud with it but the area for that par required will be same size as light...and maybe you should veg.longer..you said you wanted more so many grams..to me you don't have enough plant or lights to achieve....I completely understand about the ppfd of led lights..all box lights are junk unless you pay out your ass...IDK if you even mentioned what light you're using..but if you look at the graph it will show you how big of a area it will cover for flowering...I'm sure in your research you came across ppfd need for flowering cannabis...compare the numbers..bet you'll find you have about a 1' cover area, maybe 2'..hell my mars 2 1600. Only cover a 3'×3' in flower....let me know..and don't get butt hurt..I most definitely won't..

Completely agree on the longer veg, though I feel I should say I don't want to grow specifically for yield.
Greater yield is to be desired of course.
But what I'm after and what I will eventually gear my grow on is an open cola structure with individual dense nuggets.
Seems I might have come of a bit passive aggressive in my reply, this was not my intention.
Just here to learn, thanks for the reply once again.

Did my reply have some formatting fuckups?
I should've linked in the thread, oh well.

I am sorry but Nugg is correct, you do not have enough light. An once per plant would be about the best I can see from the photos.

Right now I'd be happy with an ounce each tbh.
As long as it's sum gud gud shit ofcourse

That optic light is NOT
"PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6"

the best high quality LED's struggle to achieve 2.3PPF, the best of the best are hitting 2.5PPF, they must take that measurement in a 1'x1' area or exactly however big that light is in size & maybe 10 inches below it, sheesh..lol. That light is not that good, not even almost but 3 of them would prolly be pretty good, now there are also much worse LED's out there don't get me wrong.. at 120 watts that light is good for 3 square feet maybe 4 at very best, just FYI!

Welp shit planning to upgrade anyways when the time is right. Any fixtures I should look out for?
Or would I be better of DIY using solderless COBs

A problem with this route is I don't think the individual diodes have a solderless option, as soldering is not an option for me.

Oh and a two foot by two foot grow room is 60x60cm right?
If so I'm running the light in this space right now, could I hit that g/w in this case?

Ya'll giving me lots of brain food right now.
Thanks dudes!

P.S. frost did indeed show up so I've got a nice comparison point for W3 D1 or day 22 in regards to less or more frost in stretch.

Will update with pics after dark.

 

[Anthem]

I do not believe quality product will come with lights with low PPFd's Part of the reason the plant produces THC is to provide protect from the elements, specifically light. Greater PPFd's will force the plant to create more THC that you are looking for in quality product.

 

[maximusluminous]

Completely agree on the longer veg, though I feel I should say I don't want to grow specifically for yield.
Greater yield is to be desired of course.
But what I'm after and what I will eventually gear my grow on is an open cola structure with individual dense nuggets.
Seems I might have come of a bit passive aggressive in my reply, this was not my intention.
Just here to learn, thanks for the reply once again.

Did my reply have some formatting fuckups?
I should've linked in the thread, oh well.



Right now I'd be happy with an ounce each tbh.
As long as it's sum gud gud shit ofcourse


Welp shit planning to upgrade anyways when the time is right. Any fixtures I should look out for?
Or would I be better of DIY using solderless COBs

A problem with this route is I don't think the individual diodes have a solderless option, as soldering is not an option for me.

Oh and a two foot by two foot grow room is 60x60cm right?
If so I'm running the light in this space right now, could I hit that g/w in this case?

Ya'll giving me lots of brain food right now.
Thanks dudes!

P.S. frost did indeed show up so I've got a nice comparison point for W3 D1 or day 22 in regards to less or more frost in stretch.

Will update with pics after dark.

I would build or buy a kit or go full out DIY, get way more bang per $1 that way. The strips & quantum boards & similar require no soldering. I have never done a cob build so not sure about solder or solderless ones, pretty sure there are solderless ones out there tho

 

[maximusluminous]

I do not believe quality product will come with lights with low PPFd's Part of the reason the plant produces THC is to provide protect from the elements, specifically light. Greater PPFd's will force the plant to create more THC that you are looking for in quality product.

I totally 1000000% disagree with this. Look at the huge warehouse grows, lights are way way high above the plants. been doing this for over 20 years & when I run lights close (like a 1000 HPS 2' off the tops of plants the shaded buds get better trichome production as do the buds furthest from the bulb. The big massive grows have the lights that high because they get better trichome production that way, they sure as heck do not get better weight that way, close lights will get you more weight than you will get having those same lights further away but your trichome production will go up, intense light kinda hurts trichomes, less intense light makes trichomes thrive. Moving your lights further away during the ripening stage = better results for me, less trichome damage!

 

[UsulLusu]

Sup farmers, after a year and three long months
of excruciatingly slow learning and fucking up many plants.

I've finally got this shiit down enough to reliably
(adequately) flower so I"m running a small hunt.

[Boku no jinx]

Finally getting to the questions I have and thought would be informative to other endeavoring phenohunters.

Basically when does frost really start to show,.
buds depicted are at Day 22 as an example, being my current run.

An HSO 707 headband and Gorilla Breath.

Would/could frost already be more visible at this point given optimal conditions// how can I further improve my existing setup on the cheap (though not diy)

In 4.8l~~ of ecothrive coco receiving their first full bloom feed of biobizz at 1.2ms/ec.

How high of an ec I should push is one of the things and my train game is still lacking but I can say I'm happy with my girls. (Though this thread is not to that purpose)

Just barely in the clear vpd wise too I think

The ☀ is provided by a 120w optic bloom enhancer
In a 60x60 tent 45cm above canopy at 100% power.
Optic rates this one to yield 288g max in this.

For space I'm optimal with this light but I'm shooting for 2-3 ounces on the 707 and 1-2 on the GB.
This light also provides UV/IR and the Emerson effect
So I'm covered in those regards.

Going over 1g/w would be an amazing feat to me so here's hoping I can reap what I sowed in this year of progress.

Shibby most the deets

Apologies for the rambling datadump hope it isn't too harsh on yee eyes.

Thanks for the read, looking forward to replies.

Almost lost the draft oh jeebus

Can you afford to go and buy a 400w HPS kit? I wouldn't bother flowering under that light. Likely cost more in nutrients than what you will yield from it.

 

[cottageman]

For a new light definitely go the diy route if you want to save some money! There are so many options from strips to boards to cob’s and they’re all good choices. Built my own light for my 4x4 space and I’m loving it right now! As far as more frost, genetics environment and light intensity! Also some strains pack frost on at different times. Some start super early and some decide to coat themselves in the last week or so

 

[Growing_Garbage]

We've all been on our first hunt and its super exciting! Yes you will want a bigger light, but you'll always want a bigger light. Hhps kits are a dime a dozen now and a little 400 or 600 will be amazing once your using it.
I think the part about your hunt might have gotten a bit lost though. The magic you're looking for there is the one plant that frosts over without the bigger light, in adverse conditions, and is clearly better than the rest.
You won't always get one either. And they won't always display the same in dif setups. You'll find some good ones and keep em. Then you'll redesign or move and might have to do a hunt again to see what thrives in YOUR space. I know it takes time but really compared to a lot of plant breeding canna is pretty quick, and that is what makes it fun.

 

[UsulLusu]

I totally 1000000% disagree with this. Look at the huge warehouse grows, lights are way way high above the plants. been doing this for over 20 years & when I run lights close (like a 1000 HPS 2' off the tops of plants the shaded buds get better trichome production as do the buds furthest from the bulb. The big massive grows have the lights that high because they get better trichome production that way, they sure as heck do not get better weight that way, close lights will get you more weight than you will get having those same lights further away but your trichome production will go up, intense light kinda hurts trichomes, less intense light makes trichomes thrive. Moving your lights further away during the ripening stage = better results for me, less trichome damage!

That optic light is NOT
"PPf/Watt: 2.43 umol/j
120 watt actual draw so 2.43*120 = 296.6"

the best high quality LED's struggle to achieve 2.3PPF, the best of the best are hitting 2.5PPF, they must take that measurement in a 1'x1' area or exactly however big that light is in size & maybe 10 inches below it, sheesh..lol. That light is not that good, not even almost but 3 of them would prolly be pretty good, now there are also much worse LED's out there don't get me wrong.. at 120 watts that light is good for 3 square feet maybe 4 at very best, just FYI!

Could of snagged a Kingbrite QB for that price too. These "budget" LED companies really do make their money tricking new growers don't they. Unless someone is going to buy Quantum Boards, I would always advise MH/HPS. Mars Hydro TS1000 had 1.65 PPFD/Watt on MIGRO's review. For the same price someone could get 2 x 600w dual spectrum HPS kits.

 

[maximusluminous]

Could of snagged a Kingbrite QB for that price too. These "budget" LED companies really do make their money tricking new growers don't they. Unless someone is going to buy Quantum Boards, I would always advise MH/HPS. Mars Hydro TS1000 had 1.65 PPFD/Watt on MIGRO's review. For the same price someone could get 2 x 600w dual spectrum HPS kits.

the Mars SP ones were more like 1.8, still not great for today IMO, but better than 1.65. I wouldn't feel bad about running 2 of the Mars SP250's in a 4x4 at a cost of about $500. the DIY I would do would cost $800 to build & would way out perform 2 SP250's but if cost was a factor & I had a $500 light budget 2 SP250 Mars would be in consideration I suppose. I got 2 of the HLG 260 XL kits on black friday for $590 shipped (the same wattage as 2 of the Mars SP250's) but more micromoles per watt with the HLG's. After using quantum boards & chilled pucks I would only do a strip build now, an 8 4' bar build with 16 2' strips & 2 320 watt drivers & I would use PLC Photoboost strips at like $27 or $28 each!

 

[UsulLusu]

the Mars SP ones were more like 1.8, still not great for today IMO, but better than 1.65. I wouldn't feel bad about running 2 of the Mars SP250's in a 4x4 at a cost of about $500. the DIY I would do would cost $800 to build & would way out perform 2 SP250's but if cost was a factor & I had a $500 light budget 2 SP250 Mars would be in consideration I suppose. I got 2 of the HLG 260 XL kits on black friday for $590 shipped (the same wattage as 2 of the Mars SP250's) but more micromoles per watt with the HLG's. After using quantum boards & chilled pucks I would only do a strip build now, an 8 4' bar build with 16 2' strips & 2 320 watt drivers & I would use PLC Photoboost strips at like $27 or $28 each!

1.65 at the height given by Mars for the TS and yeah I think it was just under 1.8 or maybe just over for the SP.

Out of curiosity why would you choose to drop 500 on 2 of the SP250s when you could get a 600w LM301H quantum board for cheaper from Ali? How do you like your HLG kits? Heard nothing but great stuff about HLG, rumors they are close to releasing some new tech in the near future. Hopefully that will bump the current technology down, price wise.

All the old time growers near me still run MH/HPS. I suspect many got burned with the rubbish older LED burples and are now wary of dipping their toes back into the LED market. No matter how much you tell them QB are better than the overpriced KIND LED they bought for over a thousand, only to switch back to MH/HPS.

 

[Anthem]

I totally 1000000% disagree with this. Look at the huge warehouse grows, lights are way way high above the plants. been doing this for over 20 years & when I run lights close (like a 1000 HPS 2' off the tops of plants the shaded buds get better trichome production as do the buds furthest from the bulb. The big massive grows have the lights that high because they get better trichome production that way, they sure as heck do not get better weight that way, close lights will get you more weight than you will get having those same lights further away but your trichome production will go up, intense light kinda hurts trichomes, less intense light makes trichomes thrive. Moving your lights further away during the ripening stage = better results for me, less trichome damage!

Are we talking HPS or LED like the original post ?

 

[cottageman]

the Mars SP ones were more like 1.8, still not great for today IMO, but better than 1.65. I wouldn't feel bad about running 2 of the Mars SP250's in a 4x4 at a cost of about $500. the DIY I would do would cost $800 to build & would way out perform 2 SP250's but if cost was a factor & I had a $500 light budget 2 SP250 Mars would be in consideration I suppose. I got 2 of the HLG 260 XL kits on black friday for $590 shipped (the same wattage as 2 of the Mars SP250's) but more micromoles per watt with the HLG's. After using quantum boards & chilled pucks I would only do a strip build now, an 8 4' bar build with 16 2' strips & 2 320 watt drivers & I would use PLC Photoboost strips at like $27 or $28 each!

Also if you don’t want to go full diy and you have some extra money to spend Atreum makes great pre made led bars with heat sinks, I built mine using 4 of those bars and 2 hlg qb 288 r spec and they’re working great together so far!

 

[maximusluminous]

1.65 at the height given by Mars for the TS and yeah I think it was just under 1.8 or maybe just over for the SP.

Out of curiosity why would you choose to drop 500 on 2 of the SP250s when you could get a 600w LM301H quantum board for cheaper from Ali? How do you like your HLG kits? Heard nothing but great stuff about HLG, rumors they are close to releasing some new tech in the near future. Hopefully that will bump the current technology down, price wise.

All the old time growers near me still run MH/HPS. I suspect many got burned with the rubbish older LED burples and are now wary of dipping their toes back into the LED market. No matter how much you tell them QB are better than the overpriced KIND LED they bought for over a thousand, only to switch back to MH/HPS.

Ya the sp250 might have been like 1.85 I forget... I don't want to deal with ali, from what I have been hearing on here people using kingbright quantum boards can run 50 watts per ft2 but typically dim it a tad, I can't, not even close with HLG boards, 30 watts per ft2 kills it for me, any more is too much without co2 or unless I raise them another 12" maybe & I already have them a good 24" high now. So how is that any difference than using the Mars? I wouldn't use Mars but I don't think it's bad if someone does, its simple & fast but its not for me.

When HLG runs their sales is when I buy, 20% off makes it a good deal. I like them enough that I bought the 2 260xl kits after I bought a 320xl heatsink & 3 boards from HLG & sourced the rest of the parts elsewhere. they want like $488 regular price for that light kit & I pieced it together for like $415ish by not buying the kit. I also have 1 chilled logic / Growma5 320 watt 4 puck set up, less red diodes than the HLG's but over all its about the same as the 320 watt 3 board HLG.

I am an old timer, ben doing this for just over 20 years, never bought into blurples, thought no way can LED's match HID, local grow store had a used chinese ali type 8 bar light, 3' bars & 3' long, 480 watt. They wanted $200 for it & I said hell Id like to see what LED is all about. Long story short the first time I used it along side of a 1000 HPS with a SHPS bulb & I yielded about the same under both lights.. I was floored & this chinese light was not even a great one, its far from garbage but its no samsung diode light & using under half the wattage yet yielded the same as my 1000 HPS that uses nearly 1100 watts, I was sold on LED's & started buying better ones & getting even better results. an Rspec QB from HLG cost half of what a new SHPS hortilux bulb lists for,,,lol. Well you can find 1000 watt SHPS bulbs on Amazon for about what a QB costs tho

 

[maximusluminous]

Are we talking HPS or LED like the original post ?

doesn't matter, too much light typically = to much heat, too much heat = trichome degrading. To high of PPFD = doing more harm than good to both your plants & the trichomes. 1050 PPFD across the canopy is about all that can be handled without co2, but I see better trichome production where its more like 800 ppfd & again without co2.