electrical set up

[sm0k4]

You also need to factor in the losses and general poor efficiency of HID systems (mainly magnetic ballasts). Running two 1000 watt on 120V/20A breaker might work ok when all the wiring is new and not old/degraded. What happens when you run that much current through #12 wire that is 20-30 years old? Heat might be more than the jacket can handle and you could have a nice fire if conditions were right.

Its always smart to be on the safe side and PAD PAD PAD your numbers so you don't draw more than 70-75% of the rated current on paper. Usually the 5% makes up for losses in the system. Then use meter to see what your actual load is when equipment is installed to be sure you are safe.

Running 240V is also a lot better and you can run more devices at the rated current. In the end its all the same when it comes to power bill, but 240 gives you more room to expand.

Denton, please factor in realistic terms, not what comes up in Google search engine.

 

[Underground]

To be honest I have run circuits past 80% as well. But I know the risk. And yes I have seen breakers go past their capacity as well. At work we had a 20A breaker trip 5-6 times a day. When I looked at what was on the circuit I just could not figure out why it stayed on at all. I did fix it.

But if the breaker is running past its rated capacity, what about the wire? The breaker is there to protect the wire, and if the breaker is not tripping, the wire is carrying more current than its rated for.

But A LOT of growers dont know jack about electric and are with all due respect, the mass of idiots. When they ask questions like , hey can i swap my 20A breaker for a 30A breaker, you have to treat them carefully and explain stuff to them. Lets face it, this board is for people who smoke pot and when they read these posts, they may be high.

You admit to never having a grow room. Well you dont interact with your lights as much as you think. My lights are always on ropes with cleats on the wall so I can adjust the height. I dont touch the hood or ballast often at all. As far as cleaning, at max, that will happen every 2 months because most growers are not going to open the hoods and try cleaning them over flowering plants.


When we tell people they can put 2 1000watters on a 20A circuit, lets just make sure we give them all the info, just not tell them its OK.


If they leave for the weekend, and the breaker trips, their plants get no light for 2-3 days and stresses the plants. A couple times of this and you have hermied plants

Well Weedfarm I was going to post this as a response to someone's pm, becuase I can't pm them back:

I am an IBEW electrician. Breakers are NOT happy running over their rated ampacity. Being a supervised electrical installation is NOT someones' grow room. Please think things through a little better. Continuous loads should be only ran at 80% Peace

I wasn't saying that it should be done, I was saying that I've seen them running that way. And also saying that in a supervised installation circuits can be run at more than 80%, was not saying that circuits can be run over 100% intentionally. Maybe it's just the crowd I hang out with, but most of the guys I hang out with are capable of responsible installation, inspection, and maintenance when taught to do so. I know we are used to making things idiot proof, I do it everyday, but I also like to convey what it is possible to do safely if done correctly. Maybe I didn't come off quite the way I wanted to, but that's how I meant it. ie: you can run more than 16 amps, say 18, on a circuit providing it's being properly inspected and maintained.
Obviously I would make different recommendations based on site conditions. Of course I would be more likely to ok something for a buddy if he at least had newer wiring that is nm-b so the condutors are 90c, lights are hardwired rather than cord and plug- twist locks ok, etc. and less likely to with poor site conditions. I'm also assuming that if someone is building their own growing room they must have some level of competency and understanding. I know I am involved in many other things and do them all quite well, and I'm not going to be so smug to think that I am any different than anyone else. I know I haven't been on this forum long, but I have been on others. Generally most of the people on these forums are knowledgeable in different areas and this helps the entire forum. As a result forum users become much more educated than the general public. I'm assuming this is the case here? I know that when I am reading a forum and trying to learn about something in particular, I can generally get a feel for whether or not I am capable of doing it efficently, effectively and safely. When my head gaskets went on my duramax, I found that it could of cost up to $10,000 to fix. Many people, even experienced mechanics, are leary of working on diesels. This particular duramax, LB7, was known for head gasket failures. Mine had all the classic bad symptoms. Bad gaskets, warped heads, corrosion at cylinder wall/gasket intersection. Had I not properly researched I would have believed 75% of the info out there that says not to shave the heads. I built a strong enough motor to stay together with a custom tune I wrote, too bad the transmission wasn't so lucky. I was going to to do the suncoast stage iv kit in the transmission myself and could have with the proper amount of research, but because I didn't have enough time because I didn't want my truck off the road that long I just took the transmission out and brought it to a shop.

What I am trying to say with that is that a responsible forum user can get a feel of what they are capable of by reading the material. I'm not saying I don't understand what you are saying, that some dumbass may come along and totally mis-intrepet what I say and potentially do something unsafe. I understand that and hope that people don't take take what I say and paint it with broader strokes.

But after reading that and the post following yours I'm wondering if it even makes sense any more. Basically what I am hearing is that it is really easy to overestimate the capabilities of the general public here, and should be treated just like residential customers and public and end user commercial areas. I'm catching what you guys are saying, to keep it idiot proof and not advise where you can cut corners because you don't know if this info will be used correctly or responsibly.

Well, I'll keep any further advice I am give limited to the idiot proof and extra safety. For what it's worth, I plan on going overboard on my own installation and build my own automated lighting and control unit fed from a 50 amp 240 volt circuit. Actually, since my room will be underground I am taking that feed that goes out to my welder and interupting with a 60 amp contactor. The feed in and out will be double lugs on the top, so the feed out is always on. The relay for the contactor will be 24volt and it will have it's own switchleg run to a certain receptacle. Think I will switch the common side of the 24 volt system so that if anything accidently got plugged into that receptacle it would not get harmed. I will run the feed for the relay through an acc contact on the contactor. What this will do is allow me to kill the entire operation by unplugging a lamp. By running it through the acc contact it will require a manual reset. I will also set my system up on a dialer so that if there are any probs with it, it will call me. I'm thinking I will use a security panel to monitor it. I will set up different sensors as different zones so that if the light level drops below a certain level it will call me, or other things like maybe make a voltage compare circuit to monitor the difference of pressure on each side of the filter system I will build, so I know when the filter is getting plugged. I have lots and lots of plans for when I finally do build it and can't wait to see it come to life. I will also keep a journal/log with a checklist of different preventative maintenance and quality control items to be filled out everyday. Logs will contain things such as when a lamp, ballast or other item was replaced, how much material was used, changes in schedules, etc. Checklists items will be things like checking the ph, temp, ec, level, etc of resi, ambient temp, humidity, etc. All the stuff I can use to go back and use to determine the whys, whether good or bad. I will also be anal about keeping it clean. I will make sure any time myself or any body I allow into the room hasn't been doing any kind of yard work in their clothes, they wear booties gloves and labcoat and take any precautions necessary to keep this room an isolated environment.

I am pretty anal and have been made fun of over and over for it when I worked for someone else. Now that I work for myself, everything that gets done by myself or an employee gets done my way, and 99.9% of the time that's above and beyond. So when I do say something is possible, it doesn't mean it's something I would do or advise. Or that just anyone should do it. Or that it should be done if there are alternatives. I will be more careful how I speak around here and more conscientious of my audience.

 

[budbarian]

Underground,

Ya, da audience will get ya every time. Due to this many times I just don't have anything to say anymore, lol.

About fuses and contactors though? Installing a 100A subpanel on 2-2-2 Al URD code Ramapo(beware, this is rated for 90A in this use, 120A in others, but at 1.11 a ft how can I go wrong). Planning on one 240V circuit for flower lights which each ballast will be pigtailed off of at gangboxes.

What's the type or brand of fuse to look for and with the ballasts hardwired, where would these go? Never heard of doing this before but sounds like a great idea.

Was gonna put the circuit on a Intermatic T104 DPST timer but keep seeing these contactors, Dorje has them on his warehouse build out. Whats the advantage? How would I learn about them w/o a knowledgeable friend? Any sites with info? Thanks for the help.

 

[weedfarm]

I have used Intermatic timers and contactors. Either will do the job.

I think one Intermatic timer is good for a few lights. But when you start getting into a lot of lights, the contactors are more convenient. The nice thing is you can use one digital timer to run 100K + in lights off contactors.

The advantage of contactors is you can use the digital timer which will keep accurate time in case of power failure etc.


There isnt much to learn about contactors. They are simply an automated switch that is controlled by a magnet. most, if not all will switch up to 600V, so you dont have to order a 120 or 240 version. They do however have amp limits, 20,30 etc so plan and order accordingly. The last variable is the coil, which opens and closes the magnet. Typically you get a 120V coil, so you can use a standard timer.

the contactor has two screws on each end, similar to a breaker. Put a wire under each screw from your power source. The other 2 screws go to the load or lights. the ends are mot marked and either side can be the load side. Then you have some spade plugs on each side of the contactor. That is the coil, run a cord from there to your timer. you will have to put a male connection on it to plug into the timer. I used 16 or 18 wire as the load on the timer/trigger wire is so small. each side contains two spade terminals. This is so you can use multiple contactors, and daisy chain the coils together

If using 120, you could use the timer on the lighting circuit. If using 240, plug the timer into any 120 outlet. The coil is separate from the load/feed side

if you understand electricity they are really simple and great ways to control devices

but the intermatic will work fine for you as well. It is just preference

 

[Mr.Detroit]

Ok here is a simple answer... go get one of those double breakers that only takes up one space and run both hotlines and a ground to a 240v master light controller with 10/2 wire use that for your ballast... throw another 20 amp breaker in with 12/2 or 10/2 even better and use that for all your accessories. problem solved.

 

[Underground]

Ok here is a simple answer... go get one of those double breakers that only takes up one space and run both hotlines and a ground to a 240v master light controller with 10/2 wire use that for your ballast... throw another 20 amp breaker in with 12/2 or 10/2 even better and use that for all your accessories. problem solved.

You can't run 240V off a tandem breaker (2 circuits in one space). It will only be 120v with a neutral loaded to twice it's capacity.

 

[Mr.Detroit]

You can't run 240V off a tandem breaker (2 circuits in one space). It will only be 120v with a neutral loaded to twice it's capacity.

Really why not as long as there is 2 120v hot lines and a ground you have 240v there is no neutral line in a 240 circuit. In a 10/2 wire the neutral wire gets used as another hot line and you use the ground like you normally would.

 

[Underground]

Really why not as long as there is 2 120v hot lines and a ground you have 240v there is no neutral line in a 240 circuit. In a 10/2 wire the neutral wire gets used as another hot line and you use the ground like you normally would.

Because a tandem breaker provides you with two circuits from the same leg. There is no difference of potential between the two conductors. You need two separate poles for 240v. When a neutral is used in these conditions, it doubles the acceptable load on the neutral conductor.

 

[Mr.Detroit]

Because a tandem breaker provides you with two circuits from the same leg. There is no difference of potential between the two conductors. You need two separate poles for 240v. When a neutral is used in these conditions, it doubles the acceptable load on the neutral conductor.

http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/?t=5&m=g1&itemNumber=3047966

According to this it says 120/240 vac... I personally use a double pole 30a breaker to go to my mlc I don't see why this would not work... especially seeing how there is NO NEUTRAL line.

 

[Mr.Detroit]

Because a tandem breaker provides you with two circuits from the same leg. There is no difference of potential between the two conductors. You need two separate poles for 240v. When a neutral is used in these conditions, it doubles the acceptable load on the neutral conductor.

Even if that was the case then get 2 tandem breakers and use a 120 line from each one... so you still have 2 open 15a circuits.

 

[weedfarm]

Even if that was the case then get 2 tandem breakers and use a 120 line from each one... so you still have 2 open 15a circuits.

use a line from each to make 240v?

WRONG!!!!


In theory it would work if the breakers were next to each other as they would be on different legs and you would get the difference of potential Underground explained.

BUT HERES WHY YOU DONT. Both legs are hot. It is possible for one side to short/overload, etc and trip one breaker, leaving the other leg hot. to keep it simple, the whole circuit is not disconnected.



240 requires a DP (not a tandem) breaker

Seriously why try to give advise on something as serious as electric when you clearly don't have the knowledge.

 

[TrichromeFan]

Because a tandem breaker provides you with two circuits from the same leg. There is no difference of potential between the two conductors. You need two separate poles for 240v. When a neutral is used in these conditions, it doubles the acceptable load on the neutral conductor.

Visual example of the bottom of a tandem breaker. Slot for one pole only.

 

[Mr.Detroit]

use a line from each to make 240v?

WRONG!!!!


In theory it would work if the breakers were next to each other as they would be on different legs and you would get the difference of potential Underground explained.

BUT HERES WHY YOU DONT. Both legs are hot. It is possible for one side to short/overload, etc and trip one breaker, leaving the other leg hot. to keep it simple, the whole circuit is not disconnected.



240 requires a DP (not a tandem) breaker

Seriously why try to give advise on something as serious as electric when you clearly don't have the knowledge.

Because people use single pole breakers to make 240 circuits all the time. I'm just suggesting how he can get the most out of his 2 open spots... you want MY ADVICE my advice would be to get a sub panel dedicated at your grow room or upgrade your box/service. In a spot like his though where its this or nothing I would do whatever works... It ain't like he is about to have an inspector come check it out or something. I hear you about the one line being hot if the other shorts out but if thats the case it won't matter anyway cuz your load what ever it may be is already fucked up thats why it shorted. So if you see one side tripped you just shut the other side off and you have no power. Until you can fix what shorted out and get it back right again.

 

[TurboAllWD]

How about the dryer circuit for 5000w's? :icon_spin: I know the boxes come with 4 outlets for 4000w's but how about adding a 5th 1000w? That would put the circuit at 75% assuming 4.5v on each 1000w on 240v. I wonder if I could run the 6th 1000w for 2hrs, with 15 minutes cool down to bump my grow up. That would put the circuit at like 27amps though.

 

[Underground]

None of that matters, you can not get 240v from a tandem. It's not just a matter if one side trips. Most breakers are not a true common trip and rely on a handle tie anyway. If you want to go with a genuine common trip, go for a SqD QO. Or find another breaker that has two poles and one handle. They make handle ties so that you could even make two separate 240v circuits with two tandems, but let's not even get into that.

Visual example of the bottom of a tandem breaker. Slot for one pole only.

While you can't see the top, it's obvious this breaker is fed from a single pole regardless if the breaker housed 1 or 100 circuits. But whomever installed this one modified it for one of two reasons:
1 This breaker was installed in a location designed to reject these types of breakers.
2 This breaker was installed in a panel which it was not UL listed or designed for.

 

[weedfarm]

None of that matters, you can not get 240v from a tandem. It's not just a matter if one side trips.

he was saying to use two tandems. 4 breakers, 2 slots. Then use a breaker from each tandem. That would give you 240. he never suggested a handle tie.

 

[weedfarm]

Because people use single pole breakers to make 240 circuits all the time. I'm just suggesting how he can get the most out of his 2 open spots... you want MY ADVICE my advice would be to get a sub panel dedicated at your grow room or upgrade your box/service. In a spot like his though where its this or nothing I would do whatever works... It ain't like he is about to have an inspector come check it out or something. I hear you about the one line being hot if the other shorts out but if thats the case it won't matter anyway cuz your load what ever it may be is already fucked up thats why it shorted. So if you see one side tripped you just shut the other side off and you have no power. Until you can fix what shorted out and get it back right again.

Yeah, it doesnt matter, that common trip thing is just overkill. Those NEC guys are just crazy.

Seriously, you dont have a clue on how electricity works, that is proven with your comments.

A sub panel would be great.

Tandems with handle ties would work.

I prefer sub panels but in one op where the main panel was actually in the flower room, I just added a few tandems to make room for some DP breakers

 

[hiboy]

To get more room in your panel.. more spaces for the 240v application.. you MIGHT be able to double up (two wires pigtailed to one breaker) one of your 15 or 20 amp breakers and then you can fit more stuff in.. just depends what your panels got in it. Normally or sometimes.. hard to word stuff with such an audience ready to critique or try to prove something..ok back to what i was saying.. Normally or sometimes outlets/ lights are on the same line..especially in the old days... and youll have 8-10 plugs on one line along with a few hundred watts of lighting.... if its overloaded after the double up the breaker will just trip if your over the max....but typically those eight outlets are used for tv, radio etc and your amps/watts are so minimal that it wont affect you if you put 16 on one.. half arent even used..grab a digital tester and see what your load is and you'll know where ur at.
and be careful of the neutral game.

 

[Underground]

he was saying to use two tandems. 4 breakers, 2 slots. Then use a breaker from each tandem. That would give you 240. he never suggested a handle tie.

No. He was saying that using both hots from a tandem will give you a 240v circuit.

Ok here is a simple answer... go get one of those double breakers that only takes up one space and run both hotlines and a ground to a 240v master light controller with 10/2 wire use that for your ballast... throw another 20 amp breaker in with 12/2 or 10/2 even better and use that for all your accessories. problem solved.

 

[weedfarm]

Even if that was the case then get 2 tandem breakers and use a 120 line from each one... so you still have 2 open 15a circuits.

No. He was saying that using both hots from a tandem will give you a 240v circuit.

He originally said both hots from ONE tandem which we agree wont give 240, then he had the brilliant idea of using TWO tandems.

One tandem would be installed on one leg, the other tandem on another leg and you WOULD get 240. But no common trip or handle tie. Not sure, but it may actually be a good idea if you used the inside breakers for 240V with a handle tie, and used the outside breakers for 120.