Ethics In Breeding

CanadaSeeds · Mar 15, 2015

I think it's important for breeders to select for genotypic traits first and more importantly than phenotypic. Because certain gene traits can really help plants through tough situations and if that's not taken into consideration you might have a plant that dosen't adapt well to harsh environments. Phenotypic expression will be there anyway, if you choose 2 different plants based on growth pattern (tall skinny vs, short bushy) you will still find the same phenotypes in the tall plants and the short plants.

CanadaSeeds · Mar 15, 2015

i think an important ethical issue in breeding is preserving genetics! seed vaults and companies preserving seeds and old proven genetics.

Motarebel · Mar 23, 2015

If breeders don't want their gear worked then they shouldn't sell it. You can't sell something and then dictate how it gets used. If I make a cross and someone else makes it better then my hat's off to them.

shemshemet · Mar 30, 2015

I personally don't believe the only good seeds are true breeding seeds.

If you are looking for an F1 hybrid, you are not going to find good breeding material.

If you are looking for good breeding material, stay away from F1 and polyhybrid.

baba G said:
FYI, a F2 will have more genetic variation and look at the parents than a F1. Plenty of F1's have become some of the best hybrids we've experienced in this industry. I do understand the need to refine and breed true but F1 hybrid vigor is a thing of beauty.

FUCK YES!

Tomato breeders don't release F2 and F3 plants. Because hobby tomato growers aren't breeding their own seed. And the hobby tomato growers who DO keep seed, are usually smart enough to get an heirloom variety.

nazarbattu · Mar 30, 2015

I love tomatoes

homebrew420 · May 9, 2015

shemshemet said:
I personally don't believe the only good seeds are true breeding seeds.

If you are looking for an F1 hybrid, you are not going to find good breeding material.

If you are looking for good breeding material, stay away from F1 and polyhybrid.

FUCK YES!

Tomato breeders don't release F2 and F3 plants. Because hobby tomato growers aren't breeding their own seed. And the hobby tomato growers who DO keep seed, are usually smart enough to get an heirloom variety.

This statement is possitively untrue. And any breeder will tell you this. Cannabis is unlike tomatoes in most every respect in terms of breeding. When breeding, one is looking for specific or even general traits to be passed on to the next generation. and then crossed fingers waiting for the results.
F2 and F3 are where the real selections are made

Peace

Bulldog11 · May 9, 2015

The breeders that Photoshop their pictures, talk about how they only breed for the love of cannabis (yet they pay thousands to be on webisites like this one), have no clue about advanced breeding or propagating techniques, their "flagship" strain is an S1, then they talk like they created the strains they "breed". Sad really.

nazarbattu · May 9, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
The breeders that Photoshop their pictures, talk about how they only breed for the love of cannabis (yet they pay thousands to be on webisites like this one), have no clue about advanced breeding or propagating techniques, their "flagship" strain is an S1, then they talk like they created the strains they "breed". Sad really.

Creators must have a different set of ethics than cultivators of seed and of medicine. I'm sure growing out 10 seeds would reveal the ethics involved behind the "creation" of said seeds.
Naz

shemshemet · May 9, 2015

homebrew420 said:
This statement is possitively untrue. And any breeder will tell you this. Cannabis is unlike tomatoes in most every respect in terms of breeding. When breeding, one is looking for specific or even general traits to be passed on to the next generation. and then crossed fingers waiting for the results.
F2 and F3 are where the real selections are made

Peace

What about it is untrue? I am not sure what to take away from your post without knowing what is untrue.

MrBelvedere · May 9, 2015

shemshemet said:
What about it is untrue? I am not sure what to take away from your post without knowing what is untrue.

I think all he was saying is that every marijuana seed on the planet has *possible* good breeding potential. Meaning whether it's true breeding, old heirloom, S1, F1, F3000, polyhybrid, it doesn't matter. It's what's in that seed as the *starting point* of a project that has value.

shemshemet · May 10, 2015

homebrew420 said:
This statement is possitively untrue. And any breeder will tell you this. Cannabis is unlike tomatoes in most every respect in terms of breeding. When breeding, one is looking for specific or even general traits to be passed on to the next generation. and then crossed fingers waiting for the results.
F2 and F3 are where the real selections are made

Peace

Re-reading this, I disagree. Breeding is not all "fingers crossed". Breeding has to do with finding plants that are true-breeding for a trait, or for multiple traits. For the most part, heirlooms and in-bred lines are a better starting point.

Breeders of the agricultural world have been doing this for a while. And they don't typically use F1 hybrids to find good breeding material. One reason they don't is because the F2 and F3 generation do not typically breed true. Another reason is to introduce variety into the gene pool.

Right now most cannabis strains are tightly attached to the skunk/haze/NL/WW backbone. This is because breeders back ~5-10 years only had access to F1 seeds, or the same exact heirloom lines.

So while F1 hybrid offspring may breed fine for you, really it is all a bunch of "pollen chucking". That is until, you develop a plan to what you are doing. And you realize that this F3 is true breeding for huge resin sacs, and this F2 breeds true for huge yields. But then you run into the other problem I mentioned, lack of variety.

MrBelvedere · May 10, 2015

homebrew420 · May 11, 2015

shemshemet said:
Re-reading this, I disagree. Breeding is not all "fingers crossed". Breeding has to do with finding plants that are true-breeding for a trait, or for multiple traits. For the most part, heirlooms and in-bred lines are a better starting point.

Breeders of the agricultural world have been doing this for a while. And they don't typically use F1 hybrids to find good breeding material. One reason they don't is because the F2 and F3 generation do not typically breed true. Another reason is to introduce variety into the gene pool.

Right now most cannabis strains are tightly attached to the skunk/haze/NL/WW backbone. This is because breeders back ~5-10 years only had access to F1 seeds, or the same exact heirloom lines.

So while F1 hybrid offspring may breed fine for you, really it is all a bunch of "pollen chucking". That is until, you develop a plan to what you are doing. And you realize that this F3 is true breeding for huge resin sacs, and this F2 breeds true for huge yields. But then you run into the other problem I mentioned, lack of variety.

This statement sounds, and no offense is meant, by someone who has not done a great deal of hybrid work. If you are "pollen chucking" F1 genes where might the "true breeding" come from? How does one select for the F2, F3, and how might an heirloom variety be started without quality genetic traits that show through. It all has to start somewhere, and the fingers crossed statement is in reference to the fact that unless the parents are phenotypically "known," it is a crap shoot. And one hopes to find a winner...to take to the next generationas parent stock.
There is no lack of variety either when it comes to cannabis. At all. I am working with an evolutionary biologist at CU Boulder in the hopes of sequencing the genome of many different cultivars. The hopes are to understand cannabinoid synthase, as well as terpene synthase alleles. Point of this statement is he has told us that drug type plants may be up to 15-20% genetically different(don't quote me on that) from other hemp of feral "ruderalis" varieties. THe different subset do seem to be genetically close, kush, og, Pakistani, Afghanis have a great deal of diversity. With humans only diverging from our nearest genetic relation, chimps, by, what is it 3%, one can begin to see that the road to exotic true breeding plants may be a long and difficult process. Good thing we can push and create seed crops 3-4 times a year if really trying.

Peace

sixstring · May 15, 2015

negroedamas said:
Negroedamas says".....@homebrew, show us your experience by providing identifiable pictures of the plants and parents. 5 yrs in the business doesn't make u a sage sorry

lmfao @ your name and avi,and although i find your posts funny you are barking up the wrong tree here ;) i think if you take the time to search around the net you will see plenty of pics that show homebrew has plenty of experience and has also earned the respect of many here.most breeders dont constantly post pics on the net because they are busy breeding and shipping beans lol.
im a huge dave chappelle fan but this aint trollitup so take that into consideration when posting trollish statements.lots of great info here.peace

happy b · May 15, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
The breeders that Photoshop their pictures, talk about how they only breed for the love of cannabis (yet they pay thousands to be on webisites like this one), have no clue about advanced breeding or propagating techniques, their "flagship" strain is an S1, then they talk like they created the strains they "breed". Sad really.

He he he.i know what your thinking.lol.

happy b · May 15, 2015

negroedamas said:
Negroedamas says".....@homebrew, show us your experience by providing identifiable pictures of the plants and parents. 5 yrs in the business doesn't make u a sage sorry

Are you serious?you come on here and call out homebrew 2 days after joining?funny funny funny.HB is one of the more respected members on this site and has proven his skills repeatedly by pics and freely giving genetix to other members to grow out all with great success.calling him out of all people shows you havnt even read any of his threads...which makes you a big mouth,sorry.

shemshemet · May 15, 2015

homebrew420 said:
This statement sounds, and no offense is meant, by someone who has not done a great deal of hybrid work. If you are "pollen chucking" F1 genes where might the "true breeding" come from? (1) How does one select for the F2, F3, and how might an heirloom variety be started without quality genetic traits that show through. (2). It all has to start somewhere, and the fingers crossed statement is in reference to the fact that unless the parents are phenotypically "known," it is a crap shoot (3). And one hopes to find a winner...to take to the next generationas parent stock.
There is no lack of variety either when it comes to cannabis. (4) At all. I am working with an evolutionary biologist at CU Boulder in the hopes of sequencing the genome of many different cultivars. The hopes are to understand cannabinoid synthase, as well as terpene synthase alleles. Point of this statement is he has told us that drug type plants may be up to 15-20% genetically different(don't quote me on that) from other hemp of feral "ruderalis" varieties. THe different subset do seem to be genetically close, kush, og, Pakistani, Afghanis have a great deal of diversity. With humans only diverging from our nearest genetic relation, chimps, by, what is it 3% (5), one can begin to see that the road to exotic true breeding plants may be a long and difficult process (6). Good thing we can push and create seed crops 3-4 times a year if really trying.

Peace

1) Not sure I get what you are asking. I am saying there is not much true breeding in F1 genetics. The parents of F1 genetics (should) breed true. A stable F1 hybrid is desired, which is done by crossing two distinctly different, yet true breeding, parents.

2) Again, unclear here (not trying to hate, trying to have an honest discussion). I think the real question here is, how to select through the F1 hybrids to find a true breeder. I am recommending not using F1 hybrids as typical breeding stock.

3) Unless the plant is genotypically known, then it is a crapshoot. Until you breed with that plant AND test its progeny, you are right it is a crapshoot. But there are ways to speed the crapshoot up. A plant that breeds true will typically express the traits it breeds true for. AKA choosing a plant that yields well will typically show better results in progeny for yield, than a plant that does not yield well.

4) I don't agree. When the genome has been looked at a little further, I will be able to comment my opinion on that matter. Until then, I think it is important to save variety in cannabis. We have learned many many many times that variety is so much better than monoculture. You can look at almost any plant, and find a case that lack of variety has caused a huge issue. I have a few examples if you would like clarification here.

5) Not going to comment on human and animal diversity compared to plant diversity. I don't know enough about animal genetics to apply that to plants. In other words, I am not sure that a 3% genetic diversity between humans and chimps could be related to a 3% difference between two plant species. How closely are hops related to cannabis?

Is plant variety in terms of preserving pest resistance or resin makeup even measurable with statistics?

6) Yes, absolutely the road is long and difficult. Plant breeding in general is long and difficult. So when cannabis breeder piggyback on each other, and the road is not long and difficult, you can see where we might make a crack for problems to arise. Specifically in genetic variety.

nazarbattu · May 15, 2015

As far as ethics are concerned, I believe the dialed in monocroppers ethics would surpass the so called ethics of "seed creators" who "create" so many different "creations". It's funny when i go in to a shop and they actually have seeds but, No clones are available of that same seed line or no flowers are available of it only concentrates and no flowers are available of crosses and the person with answers comes and says 'oh ya, the "velvet violet" is our cornerstone brood stock and we've grown it for years' it's all purple everytime, they just can't fathom that the green pheno I found out of 1 pack is more potent then any of $100's worth of top shelf ive smoked from the very same dispo seed creators

I think the main problem lies in "seed creators" breeding bad ethics, starting with that first herm seed crop of unkown sold as S1's with only concentrates to sample because the flowers were that shitty.
naz

true grit · May 15, 2015

@homebrew420 I think what @shemshemet is trying to point out that, simply creating an F1 hybrid and calling yourself a breeder is about as much breeding as goes in to s1's...still basically pollen chucking until the line is worked further. at least thats how i take it...i mean i can start with f1 stock and make new f1 stock based off what i like with plants and the variety between both of those generations will be all over the place. Pop just about anyone's f1 seeds from modern genetics these days and you will likely see wide variety of phenotypes. Very rarely do i pop seeds adn see consistency...and thats usually because an inbred or heirloom line was used.

And in many cases most folks starting with f1, just release them and don't further the line. I really don't see a whole lot of "breeders" releasing lines beyond their f1.

shemshemet · May 15, 2015

@true grit Yeah pretty much what I am trying to say. Typically commercial breeding takes a line, breeds within that line to get some true breeding plants, and cross two separate worked lines to make the F1. This gives stability and hybrid vigor, which is the aim and purpose of an F1 hybrid.

This is a very long and very drawn out process. And doing it in a basement would take years upon years. The culture, legality, and secrecy of cannabis growing are really the driving factors behind breeders not doing that leg work. I don't chop it up to greed more than the other factors.

Ethics In Breeding

Ethics In Breeding

CanadaSeeds

CanadaSeeds

Motarebel

shemshemet

nazarbattu

homebrew420

Bulldog11

nazarbattu

shemshemet

MrBelvedere

shemshemet

MrBelvedere

homebrew420

sixstring

happy b

Guest

happy b

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shemshemet

nazarbattu

true grit

shemshemet

Ethics In Breeding

Ethics In Breeding

CanadaSeeds

CanadaSeeds

Motarebel

shemshemet

nazarbattu

homebrew420

Bulldog11

nazarbattu

shemshemet

MrBelvedere

shemshemet

MrBelvedere

homebrew420

sixstring

happy b

Guest

happy b

Guest

shemshemet

nazarbattu

true grit

shemshemet

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